I need some advice. I have a friend that doesn't believe in God. She grew up Catholic but doesn't really believe in God anymore. She says that she never really actually ever did. She says that she wants to believe in God but she just can't wrap her mind around the idea of Him. She can't make her self imagine what He is like or how anything He did is possible or anything so she can't believe in something that she can't fathom. (I hope that makes sense.) She says that its even sometimes hard to believe the bible cause its just like a bunch of stories. How can I help her to believe? How can I make God more real to her?
Please help.
Thanks

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Originally Posted by stacky1

she just can't wrap her mind around the idea of Him.

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Neither can the rest of us.

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She can't make her self imagine what He is like or how anything He did is possible or anything so she can't believe in something that she can't fathom.

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That's what faith is -- believing even in the face of impossibility.

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the bible cause its just like a bunch of stories

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They are stories about people who didn't believe or thought they couldn't believe or didn't want to believe, but something happened and faith came into their hearts.

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How can I help her to believe? How can I make God more real to her?

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Be a good example. Be kind to others. Treat animals respectfully. Don't make fun of anyone. Pick up trash you see lying on the ground. Help people who need help -- open doors, carry things, wave to babies and little children, visit an older person in your neighborhood and listen to stories about the olden days, go to church and Sunday School, don't use bad language or hang around people who do, get a kids' Bible story book (simply written with nice pictures) from the library and read it together with her, then talk about what you read. Each story will have a major truth. See if the two of you can figure it out.

Any God worthy of the name is going to be beyond our comprehension, because if he's just a being like us, what good is he? The Bible is an attempt to describe the indescribable, because our language will never be able to give us an accurate picture. It's the finite trying to describe the infinite, which just doesn't work. So instead we have stories of how God interacts with people. The stories reassure us that God cares about us, loves us, and wants a relationship with us.

My question to you is why is this so important to you. Why are you concerned whether she believes or not? If she is asking you for help to believe, the only thing you can do is explain what faith is and how your faith makes you feel better.

If she isn't asking for your help, then don't push your beliefs on her.

OK well maybe I wasn't entirely truthful when I asked the question. The friend is actually me. I'm ashamed that I don't believe in god cause I was raised catholic and was involved in a lot of activities in college and all my friends are really religious, but I'm not. I more or less just go through the motions cause its what your suppose to do. I can't wrap my mind around the idea of god and all that he could have done enough to actually believe in him. Like I can't imagine something like that. Like all the stuff just seems more like stories to me. Like you know when we were little and we believed in santa clause, and he was the guy that brang us presents on christmas if we were good, well sometimes that's almost what it seems like with god. That its all a big story. Kind of like a story to try to make everyone be better people. And I want to believe in god... but I just can't make myself.

And now that I've made myself sound like a horiable person, especially on a religious forum, I hope that what I said kind of makes sense and someone can give me some advice as what I should do or help me in any way

Thanks

Why do you think you sound like a horrible person? You are not the first person who has grown up to question that faith is enough to believe in a god. And you won't be the last.

Personally, I think you are a rational, intelligent person who has decided that you can't accept something on faith alone. That you need more than just the possibility and promise of salvation, afterlife etc. to believe. This is NOTHING to be ashamed of. There are many people who believe as you do just as there are many who find comfort in having faith in the alleged word of god.

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Originally Posted by stacky1

i want to believe in god...but i just can't make myself.

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That's the beauty of faith! None of us have "made" ourselves believe. God loves us, all of us, and finds a way to come into each heart.

Maybe your asking about this is God's way of coming into your heart because "doubts are the ants-in-the-pants of faith." Doubts and questions are good. Try what I had suggested -- help other people in various ways and also read some of those Bible stories to find ONE truth in each one.

First we can understand what God is, or what he looks like or how he operates, He has appeared as smoke, as fire, as shadow and more. Also one could not even start accepting the bible if one does not even think God exists.

But part of the issue is that we have to stop trying to out think God, to try and find a box he has to fit in. He can't and won't fit into a model of anything we can understand.

You don't sound like a horrible person.

If you're just going through the motions then you're only doing yourself injustice.

Believing in God doesn't make you a good person. Not believing doesn't make you a bad person. As long as you live your life the best you can, are kind to people, do your best to be a good human being, that's what counts.

If believing in God is important to you then explore other possibilities, other religions. Maybe it's just Catholicism that's standing in your way. Maybe another religion will make more sense to you. If not, then don't be so hard on yourself. You're not alone. There are many that don't believe in the bible or God and they're still wonderful people that go on to live wonderful lives. :)

You I'm a good person, but what if there is a god(cause there probably is, otherwise so many people are praying to no one and going to church for no reason) and then I go and don't believe in him(cause I'm dumb and can't just accept the fact that I just need to believe in something I cant), then there turns out to believe a heaven and hell, I don't want to have to spend eternity in hell just cause I was stuborn or something and didn't believe in god

I believe that any god that might exist will judge a person on how they lived, not how they worship. In my opinion any god that requires someone to worship a specific way to get salvation is not a just god.

Yes there are many people who believe but there are also many different beliefs, if there is only one god, why would so many different religions exist?

So you need to decide what is more important to you!

You're not a horrible person. You're a normal person. We all have questions at various times. I've come close to losing my faith, but two things kept me from it: first, there has to be a creator of some kind. All this had to get here somehow. Regression only goes so far, and eventually you have to get to the so-called "uncaused cause." There are lots of potential rational arguments against that, but all they do is push the question further back. I figure, may as well save time and go to the uncaused cause directly.

Second, history supports the likelihood that Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again. Other explanations of the event just don't hold water. The only reasonable explanation that takes all the facts into account is the one that defies explanation: it happened. And that event has far-reaching implications. Those can be worked out over time, but those two facts kept me holding on until I came out the other end of the crisis.

They may or may not work for you; the key is to find your own anchor to hold on to. You can get through this and come out with your faith stronger. One major question to ask yourself is: WHY do the stories etc. give you so much trouble? What is it about them, or are there particular ones that you have problems with, that sort of thing. Getting to the "why" of things goes a long way toward helping you deal with them. And we'll help if we can.

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stacky1: "...there turns out to believe a heaven and hell, i dont want to have to spend eternity in hell just cause i was stuborn or something and didnt believe in god"

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OK stacky1, here's my two cents worth. I find the expression "believing in God" less than helpful. It's the kind of phrase that children use. Believing that God exists, rather than believing He doesn't exist simply makes one a theist rather than an atheist. And don't get me wrong, the people on this site are very religious. That's the result of their believing in God, in Jesus, etc.

Now about hell. The correct meaning of 'hell' is simply the grave. Not eternal torture.

About faith. To escape death we need the kind of faith that God gives. Just deciding to believe because I want to go to heaven is not the answer.

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Originally Posted by stacky1

ok well maybe i wasnt entirely truthful when i asked the question. the friend is actually me. im ashamed that i dont believe in god cause i was raised catholic and was involved in alot of activities in college and all my friends are really religious, but im not.

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It's OK to feel that way - that how I was when I was young. As I grew up, met people from around the world, got a great education, I found I didn't need religion and that many of those that profess to be religious were no better than the non-religious types. I decided that I was agnostic and it lived my life as I see fit. Please don't beat yourself up around the guilt issue, that isn't healthy, plus those who give you grief about your decision need to accept you as you are, as a person not a member of a group. Good luck.

Stacky,

The bible says that even the demons believe in God and tremble. Believing in a creator is a start but it is what you believe about God and who you believe God is that counts.

The only way we ever come to God is by Faith. And the Bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Pick up the Bible and read it, or find a good ministry to listen to. It will increase your faith.

God loves you and wants you to grow, what your doing is not the "wrong" thing, its just another step to becoming a growing christain. Seek out fellow christians, pray for direction from god, you'll see a change.
And yes, as Classyt says, "The only way we ever come to God is by Faith."
If you question it too much, it just slows you down

Hello,

Show your friend that such thing as a camera, computer or a telephone had to have an intelligent maker, how much more would our eyes, brains and ears need a far superior intelligent maker.

Ps. 19:1: “The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.”
Ps. 104:24: “How many your works are, O Jehovah? All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions.”
Rom. 1:20: “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made.”


The Universe alone gives witness to a Creator. Who holds the sun just the right distance from the earth, so the earth and we don't burn up?

Peace.
Hope 12

Have you LOOKED at other religions? Have you researched other belief systems?

Why are you pushing yourself to believe in a SPECIFIC god? Trying to MAKE yourself believe is just silly--either you do or you don't.

Would you push someone into believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy if they didn't? Would you push yourself into believing in Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy?

Well, why are you forcing yourself to believe in God?

I think what you need to do is get out there and find out what you can about your own religion and about all the other religions out there, and then see what you actually DO believe and don't believe, and decide from there what you should do.

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

And don't get me wrong, the people on this site are very religious. That's the result of their believing in God, in Jesus, etc.

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And just want to point out that being very religious isn't linked to believing in God and Jesus. Some of us believe in Allah or Astarte or Buddha or Shiva, or Cernanos or Diana, and we're JUST as religious as those that believe in the Christian God and Jesus.

How about answering the OP's question, and taking the theological debate to another thread, please?

I will say this ONE LAST TIME.

Take your theological debates to a Members Discussions thread.

THIS thread is to answer the OP's question.

If you can't stick to THAT topic, I WILL delete your posts--just like I already have cleaned some of them up.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by stacky1

ok well maybe i wasnt entirely truthful when i asked the question. the friend is actually me. im ashamed that i dont believe in god cause i was raised catholic and was involved in alot of activities in college and all my friends are really religious, but im not. i more or less just go through the motions cause its what ur suppose to do. i can't wrap my mind around the idea of god and all that he could have done enough to actually believe in him. like i can't imagine something like that. like all the stuff just seems more like stories to me. like u know when we were little and we believed in santa clause, and he was the guy that brang us presents on christmas if we were good, well sometimes thats almost what it seems like with god. that its all a big story. kind of like a story to try to make everyone be better people. and i want to believe in god...but i just can't make myself.

and now that ive made myself sound like a horiable person, especially on a religious forum, i hope that what i said kinda makes sense and someone can give me some advice as what i should do or help me in any way

thanks

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Hi Stacky,
I can't wrap my mind around the idea of God either, but believe it or not, that's a good thing. A being big and transcendent enough to have created all this, including you and me, is going to be beyond my finite comprehension. But, regardless of what the science-only types try to tell us, all this had to get here somehow. One of the basic rules of physics is that, from nothing, you get nothing. So the universe can't just have spontaneously appeared out of nothing. We can see mechanisms, like the Big Bang and all that, but none of it tells us where the original singularity came from or anything else. The only explanation is that somebody or something put it there. Where did that being come from? As I said, it doesn't matter. We're answerable to our creator, and that's all. That's what counts.

Beyond that, we really can't give you much. I understand why you're having a problem. But as Fr. Chuck said, the best thing to do is put aside any preconceived notions of what you think God should be like, and start looking around to understand as much as you can about what he/she/it is like. Too often we're tempted to create God in our own image, so to speak; "a loving God wouldn't do this, that or the other thing," that sort of thing. "Why doesn't God do something about X?" Answer: I don't know. He's beyond my comprehension. But he has to exist; there's no way around it. That gives you a starting point on which to build a viable faith that can hold up under scrutiny.

And no, you're not a horrible person. You're not even a bad person. You're a normal person just like the rest of us. Take comfort in that.

Hope this helps.

*I* removed the advertising posts, and anything referring to them.

We don't allow advertising at AMHD.

O.K. can I post link's to other sites where people can get information?

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Originally Posted by sawsall02

O.K., can I post link's to other sites where people can get information?

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As long as no one is required to pay for anything.

Thank You!

Please go to this link:http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2106

This should give you scientific proof of a creator! Yes it's FREE!

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Originally Posted by sawsall02

Please go to this link:Apologetics Press - God and the Laws of Thermodynamics: A Mechanical Engineer?s Perspective

This should give you scientific proof of a creator! Yes it's FREE!

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Can you give us a short synopsis in your own words what that scientific proof shows? It's a rather long block of text.

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Originally Posted by sawsall02

Please go to this link:Apologetics Press - God and the Laws of Thermodynamics: A Mechanical Engineer?s Perspective

This should give you scientific proof of a creator! Yes it's FREE!

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There is NO scientific proof of a creator. There are factual indications that lead some people to believe in a creator but nothing that constitutes scientific proof. One can prove gravity by dropping an object and observing that it falls. But there being a sentient creator is an issue of faith, not scientific proof.

So please don't waste our time with links to sites that pretend to offer proof of something that cannot prove.

If you stay within the bounds of science, and find the "Laws Of Thermaldynamics" to be true; it only further proves that something outside of these laws acted and thus created everything from nothingness. If you use logic. You can also see it's easier to have faith in God, than to believe or have faith that everything came from nothingness.

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Originally Posted by sawsall02

If you use logic.

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If you don't know the answer to something and you immediately attribute it to a god that's not science - that's living like the ancient romans and greeks who attributed a god to every event they didn't understand.

And I'll go back to the static argument against the "created it from nothingness" point:

If it was NOTHINGNESS, who created the Creator? You can't have a Creator that "always existed" and then deny that the laws of nature "always existed" too. If ONE can exist prior to the other, then the OTHER can exist prior to the other as well.

So.. if you believe a Creator has ALWAYS existed, you have to allow for the belief that the Universe itself has ALWAYS existed. If the Universe was created, then you have to allow for the idea that the Creator was created.

Neither is FACT. BOTH are BELIEF

Where did it all come from? How did it happen?

I'm not a scientist, I admit, but I am very hopeful that there's an afterlife in which I will be able to learn the greatest mysteries of the Universe from much more qualified beings than exist in our mortal world.

If not, then I'll just die a romanced girl who always prayed for something more-and ultimately I'll never know the difference.

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Originally Posted by southamerica

If not, then I'll just die a romanced girl who always prayed for something more

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Why? Are you not having any fun now? :(

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Why? Are you not having any fun now? :(

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Oh that's not what I meant. I meant I hope that I get to find out all the answers someday and I pray that after I die I will.

I'm having an absolute blast right now! Living it up mortal style ;)

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Originally Posted by southamerica

Living it up mortal style ;)

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That's all you really need. :)

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Originally Posted by sawsall02

If you use logic. ...

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The only logic here is the Holmesian logic, that 'if you eliminate all other possibilities, what's left has to be the answer'. The problem here is you can't eliminate all other possibilities.

I'm a deist. I do believe that some intelligent force created the Universe for the reasons you cite. But I don't believe that intelligence is watching over us guiding our lives or waiting for our deaths to reward us for living a good life etc. I so nothing concrete to support that.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Can you give us a short synopsis in your own words what that scientific proof shows? It's a rather long block of text.

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Hi NK

This is my take on the first bit.

The argument firstly centres on two scientific principles, i.e the first and second laws of thermodynamics. The principle being explored here is that within any closed system energy will always remain constant. The example given was burning a piece of wood. Energy is not created and/or destroyed in the process. Provided we don't throw petrol on the fire, it will work out that the amount of energy stored in the wood will be equal to the amount of heat energy given off.

The argument in relation to the first law seems to be centred on the idea that the universe cannot function as a closed system in its very early states of development. In other words, the universe could have only come into being if there was some one or something creating an 'input' from outside the system.

This is a pretty good argument, but like any theory it is not ironclad. The problem is that the first law applies to a closed system. No one know if the beginning universe was a closed system. The other possibility, is that the early universe was an open system. In other words, open to another system. No one knows how or even if the first law applied in those early stages.

Until there is some type of agreement about how quantum mechanics applies to the early universe then anything said on both sides of the debate is pretty much speculation.

Tut

God has always existed. He never had a beginning. Also, the theory that the universe has always existed, go against the second law of thermaldydamics.

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Originally Posted by sawsall02

God has always existed.

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Once again this is a belief. As I mentioned just because you don't have an answer for an observation is not a proof that a god exists. See my previous response to you.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Once again this is a belief. As I mentioned just because you don't have an answer for an observation is not a proof that a god exists. See my previous response to you.

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You are correct. A better more scientific postulation would be that God exists outside of time as we know it. But again, this is not a proof. Thing is, as you know, arguments from silence always cut both ways. Not having an answer for an observation doesn't prove that a god exists, but it also doesn't prove that a god doesn't exist.

As I already said, assuming the God who made this universe had a creator of his/her/its own, the significance of that is moot for practical purposes. If there's a creator who made me, then I'm answerable to that creator for what I do with my life. Whether that God had a creator of its own doesn't matter, because I'm answerable to my creator, not God's. So when we get down to brass tacks, speculation about where God came from is pointless and distracting from the real issue.