I was raised by my father who has no religious preference and my mother who was raised Catholic but doesn't practice her religion anymore. I grew up attending a Christian church but quickly realized it wasn't for me.

On my dog tags I listed no religious preference. I disregard the bible as non-credible and I despise those who preach to non-believers. I can't justify spending my time on earth HOPING something happens when I die.

My discussion is this. Tell me your thoughts of people like me, tell me your beliefs and lets debate this.

Anyone have any thoughts..

I have lots of thoughts. You kind of already scared me with your anger and vehemence. Not sure I want to post anything.

It sounds like your mind is made up, so what's to debate?

Wow.. that's a big door to walk through. But I will say this. If you attended a christian school then you should have at some point had some bible study. You would know that part of being a christian involves delivering the message forward. Now when it comes to being preachy (to me means over the top) then yes that is something that is bad about some believers.

One of the many parablles that is spoken of in the bible that deals with that is the one where it is said. Some seed will fall upon fertile soil and some will fall upon stone.

In a nutshell the person doing the telling is suppose to recognize what's going on. To offer is OK, but a true christian always accepts his fellow man (and woman) and doesn't get preachy. That's what church is for.

Post away. My vehemence of my beliefs are just that, my beliefs. If someone isn't forceful with their own beliefs can they really believe in them?

I am open to debate of any sort, my mind may be made up but that shouldn't detour you from debating your beliefs.

I want someone to explain to me how anything preached out of the bible can be credible?

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Wow .. thats a big door to walk through. But I will say this. If you attended a christian school then you should have at some point had some bible study. You would know that part of being a christian involves delivering the message forward. Now when it comes to being preachy (to me means over the top) then yes that is something that is bad about some believers.

One of the many parablles that is spoken of in the bible that deals with that is the one where it is said. Some seed will fall upon fertile soil and some will fall upon stone.

In a nutshell the person doing the telling is suppose to recognize whats going on. To offer is ok, but a true christian always accepts his fellow man (and woman) and doesnt get preachy. Thats what church is for.

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I never attended a Christian School. ;) It says Church in my body above...

Its sad, no hope, no future to look forward to. Just now and never knowing when even that little bit is over.

No feeling you have a purpose on earth. No reason beyond self pleasure to wake up to.

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

I never attended a Christian School. ;) It says Church in my body above...

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My bad. But you get what Im saying about how the bible is written and one of the paramounts in it is the bringing forth of the message. So the rest of my post is still relavent.

I don't believe in "preaching" and trying to force what I believe on anyone, especially someone who is already loaded for bear. My behavior shows what kind of a person I am.

I love your statement, "Tell me your thoughts of people like me."

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Its sad, no hope, no future to look forward to.

This is your belief is it not? You automatically judge me for not sharing the same ideas. What's sad? Whats hopeless? What future don't I have? (after-life? there is no guarantee there is such a thing)

Just now and never knowing when even that little bit is over.

What else besides the now/future on earth is relevant?

No feeling you have a purpose on earth. No reason beyond self pleasure to wake up to.
I feel I have a purpose on earth. Do you? Or is your only purpose on earth is to make it to the after-life?

Again, I have MANY reasons beyond self-pleasure to wake up every morning. What are your reasons for waking up that are so much different then mine.

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I am not trying to fight, this is simply a debate of belief.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

My behavior shows what kind of a person I am."

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As does mine!

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

As does mine!

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I don't doubt that for a minute.

Now, tell me what you meant by "people like me."

You might find this interesting reading. It seems to be on an even slant. Its from a program called NOVA. It aires on PBS and they produce many fine programs with an eye on science.

NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Archeology of the Hebrew Bible | PBS

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I don't doubt that for a minute.

Now, tell me what you meant by "people like me."

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people like me = non believers

From Muslim to American Indian religious practice, to someone in the jungle who still believes in a sun god, or a Christian,

They share one factor ( in that they have a faith and a hope that is part of what can drive their life.

Without that why would a person want to get up in the morning, except for the need to provide for their "needs" in life.

As for the look for things to come, if one believes in ghosts where your spirit stays here on earth or where your soul recycles back over and over, they also share some things, the hope for better ( or fear of worst) things to come.
In absence of laws and society values, those are the driving factors that often make up our moral fiber, if there is no crime or earthly punishment, why not indulge in various desires.

But why do you have a purpose, or what it is, why care for your fellow man if it is not going to be of any benefit.

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

people like me = non believers

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Nonbeliever is a broad brush when your asking about christians. The umbrella is huge when it comes to nonbelievers (label).

So when you say people like me then it may need further definition for some people. To a christian a jew is a non believer. And that position is far and away from where your standing.

So does that make you an agnostic ? Or atheist ?


agnostic - definition of agnostic by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

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Originally Posted by ;

But why do you have a purpose, or what it is,

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"Consider a hammer. It's designed to hit nails. That's what it was created to do. Now imagine that the hammer never gets used. It just sits in the toolbox. The hammer doesn't care.

But now imagine that same hammer with a soul, a self-consciousness. Days and days go by with him remaining in the toolbox. He feels funny inside, but he's not sure exactly why. Something is missing, but he doesn't know what it is.

Then one day someone pulls him out of the toolbox and uses him to break some branches for the fireplace. The hammer is exhilarated. Being held, being wielded, hitting the branches -- the hammer loves it. At the end of the day, though, he is still unfulfilled. Hitting the branches was fun, but it wasn't enough. Something is still missing."

You are viewing me as hammer. Assuming I need a purpose in life to feel fulfilled. What purpose do you have? If you don't hit the nail on the head there's a guy behind you ready to go.

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why care for your fellow man if it is not going to be of any benefit.

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My actions aren't dependent on benefits received from them. I don't need to benefit from something in order to do it. In my opinion I think its selfish to do things only because you benefit from it.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

So does that make you an agnostic ? Or athiest ?

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I would be agnostic... I am doubtful or not convinced.

What I don't get is why is that you want a debate on the whole thing. Just as how you believe what you believe and want to be let alone, allow for Christians to do the same. Your desire to debate is just as overbearing as their desire to preach. Religion is based on faith, there is no right or wrong or black and white, it is what text or god speaks to you as a person. I personally don't get the bible... I don't read the bible except for Proverbs probably and I don't trust it, I think that it is a tool of manipulation BUT I don't attack people for believing in it. Maybe, they are able to feel something that YOU or should I say WE just cant. So debating the credibility of the bible would be irrelevant... it's a spiritual thing.

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Originally Posted by missemme

What I don't get is why is that you want a debate on the whole thing. Just as how you believe what you believe and want to be let alone, allow for Christians to do the same. Your desire to debate is just as overbearing as their desire to preach. Religion is based on faith, there is no right or wrong or black and white, it is what text or god speaks to you as a person. I personally don't get the bible...I don't read the bible except for Proverbs probably and I don't trust it, I think that it is a tool of manipulation BUT I don't attack people for believing in it. Maybe, they are able to feel something that YOU or should I say WE just cant. So debating the credibility of the bible would be irrelevant...it's a spiritual thing.

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I want to debate this because I can. This is not the same thing as preaching, I am not pushing my beliefs on anybody or trying to convince others to join in my beliefs.

I am not attacking people either, where in my post am I attacking anybody? Myself and Fr_chuck have an understanding as we have both been here along time. I am not attacking his views no more no less then he is mone. (which I welcomed with this post)

No debating the bible is not irrelevant... it is not a spiritual thing. The bible states people, places, things, etc... all which can be proven/denied.

Where are you going with this?

What am I doing on the religious forum? Oh right, I saw your thread, saw it was you that started it, and curiosity killed the cat. Meow. ;)

IT, I used to post on the religious threads a lot. The only thing it got me was a gigantic headache and a few enemies. You see, like you, I'm not a believer in the bible, I don't believe in church, I don't appreciate people preaching to me, and I don't think anyone needs religion in order to live a good life and be a good person.

As of this moment I'm a Deist. That's what makes the most sense to me right now. I believe that there was some higher power, God, if that's what you want to call it, that helped create the earth. God and science. After the earth was created, God walked away.

I think the bible is a very interesting book of fiction. There are some valuable lessons in it, but fact? No.

I also believe that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, but they don't have the right to force that belief on others.

Because of past "discussions" on the religious forums I've pretty much steered clear of that section. Everyone is passionate about what they believe in, or don't believe in. I've never met a person yet that won't defend their beliefs, no matter what they are. I do find it amusing when someone quotes bible versus to me to prove their point, knowing that I don't believe that the bible is a source of anything real.

So, to answer your question. What do I think of people like you? I think you're the same as every other person. You believe what you believe, and you don't want others preaching their beliefs to you.

The bible itself is a historical text... I KNOW that, but at the end of the day the connection that Christians have with it is purely spiritual, many can intellectualize and have logical discussions about it being historically accurate and all that, but at the end of the day when the short comings and questions come up (although some struggle with them)... most believe that one day it will come to light... faith (which is what I mean by it being a spiritual thing).
I didn't say you were attacking anybody... I said I think the bible is used as manipulation but that does not give me the right to attack people... it was an abstraction... an example. You simply assumed I was talking about you:)
Are you saying that you don't want me to post anything here since I haven't been here long long time?
Where YOU going with this?
Yes, the happenings in the bible can be proved or denied... but at the end of the day it still comes down to what you chose to believe... the Jews know Jesus and so do the Christians and they are working with similar history but they came to different conclusions about who he was... not black and white in my opinion...

I am not saying I don't want you to post. I welcome all members to discuss with me. I was merely stating that Fr_Chuck and myself have an understanding that we're different and I didn't want you to think I was attacking him.

I apologize for the rudeness of my comments last night. I was upset about "expert topics"!!

I am not debating about what Christians see in the bible and how they interpret or connect with it. I just want to know how it can be credible. It's so old, who's to say this wasn't a story somoen wrote a long time ago and it kept getting passed down, being added to. Granted the physical things can be proven but yet again it could still be a story.

I could write a story right now including my town and the storm we just had, but the story be completely fictional. 100 years from now, they will find my story, see that the places in my book existed and so did events I described so they would assume the story is true... yet it's not. It's just a story.

I guess I am just wondering how can someone base their entire life off something that cannot be proven to be correct, accurate or true at all.

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

I guess I am just wondering how can someone base their entire life off of something that cannot be proven to be correct, accurate or true at all.

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I think you're missing the point of the Bible, its purpose. It's not a science book nor is it a history book. It's not even historical fiction.

And no one is trying to prove anything about it, especially not to you. That's where the idea of faith comes in.

What do you trust? What or who do you have faith in?

I am a Christian and I am passionate about my beliefs but I'm not upset or angry when someone doesn't agree with me. Unless they get personal. I've had Jehovah Witness come to my door and it doesn't bug me that they try preaching to me. I completely disagree with them, let them know striaght up and shut the door. I know what I know and I believe what I believe. Also I have tried to witness to people had one person tell me to NEVER mention the name of Jesus to him again and I don't. You can't MAKE someone believe. So not sure I understand why you "despise" those who preach. Unless they are obnoxious and then you can't blame Christianity for that. Lots and losts of obnoxious people of all beliefs.

I guess if I thought that Christianity was just about what happened after I died maybe I wouldn't be interested either. But for me, it is all about living right now. Jesus said that he came to give us life and more abundantly... ( not the abdunant afterlife). Sure I believe heaven is waiting but Christianity is about Today, right now and who can't relate to right now?

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

I could write a story right now including my town and the storm we just had, but the story be completely fictional. 100 years from now, they will find my story, see that the places in my book existed and so did events I described so they would assume the story is true... yet it's not. It's just a story.

I guess I am just wondering how can someone base their entire life off of something that cannot be proven to be correct, accurate or true at all.

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Oral history comes with time imortal. Before the days of writing that's how traditions and myths were passed down. It is from that history that allowed for man to progress. A way of learning from the past. Tose traditions were usually very strict in their making and persons were taught not to add or embelish them. Over time some things could have changed just by a simple word. Saying and instead of or in the wrong place could change a story completely and even start wars. The bible is filled with many events. Some proven as fact and others leave us with a mystery. One thing is for sure is that the new testiment has documentation following it that the old testement doesn't because of the oral traditions that went into the old testement. The new testement is the christian side of the bible. In its entirety it is a mixed blend of christian (new) and jewish (old) testement. Since the first churches there has always been debate and sometimes leading to bloodshed. At one time there was only 1 christian church through unification. Now there are many and its extremely splintered.

I think the part that gets me most is not if my fellow man (or woman) shares my faith. But the debates over one sentence or one word. It gets rather tiring. Even on the board here you see the misuse of being judged. But that could open a can of worms to another thread entirely.

So to answer your original question of "what do I think of people like you?"

To me it doesn't matter what you do or don't do as far as faith. Your life is yours to live. If we had known each other at some point I may have brought it up and if rejected that would have been the only time but it doesn't reflect on any opinion I would have of your character. You would still be my friend.

[QUOTE=Wondergirl;2692960]I think you're missing the point of the Bible, its purpose. It's not a science book nor is it a history book. It's not even historical fiction.

I'm not missing the point because I am not trying to understand. I realize and understand everything you're saying. It is in fact considered an historic book. Anything that perceives to display the past is historic material. I'm just wondering how it can be true. How does anyone know? How do we know Adam & Eve really existed? The Garden of Eden? Abel's death by the hands of his angry brother Cain? The disobedience of God by Cain and the sin being introduced in the human race? (I use this scenario because it's seemingly the first events of the bible, thus the oldest)

And no one is trying to prove anything about it, especially not to you. That's where the idea of faith comes in.

I'm not asking anyone to prove anything to me. This can't be done. I am simply asking how someone could base their life off of something that no one knows whether its true or not.

What do you trust? What or who do you have faith in?

I trust myself. To make the right decisions and to do what I have to, to lead a prosperous, healthy, fulfilled life. I trust my wife, to make the right decisions in my absence.

I have faith in my actions, that they are the right actions and it will lead me to accomplish my goals of leading a prosperous, healthy, fulfilled life.

Please retool your WG quote to show different type or a bolding for the words I did NOT say (and you did?) --

"I'm not missing the point because I am not trying to understand. I realize and understand everything you're saying. It is in fact considered an historic book. Anything that perceives to display the past is historic material. I'm just wondering how it can be true. How does anyone know? How do we know Adam & Eve really existed? The Garden of Eden? Abel's death by the hands of his angry brother Cain? The disobedience of God by Cain and the sin being introduced in the human race? (I use this scenario because it's seemingly the first events of the bible, thus the oldest)

I'm not asking anyone to prove anything to me. This can't be done. I am simply asking how someone could base their life off of something that no one knows whether its true or not."

I would but when I try to edit I get an error :D

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

I would but when I try to edit I get an error :D

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Maybe you need the "go" skin to do it ? ;)

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Maybe you need the "go" skin to do it ? ;)

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Do you use the GO skin?

The OT is full of poetry, wisdom literature, parables, allegories, myths, and the story of the wanderings of a tribal nation that finally found a place to settle and what they did there. I would not call it a history book per se.

Even among Christians, there are differences of opinion as to whether there really was a Great Flood, a giant fish that swallowed Jonah, a giant named Goliath, a Garden of Eden. As in any stories of a nation, there are kernels of truth amidst the embellishments.

If things are questioned, why are lives based off having Faith in this?

The posters with [?] after their screen name are using GO.

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

If things are questioned, why are lives based off having Faith in this?

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Faith in that? No, that's not true. I've been a Christian all my life and believe Adam and Eve were archetypes with their story giving us a much bigger and broader concept.

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

Do you use the GO skin?

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No I don't use it for anything. I have to go through it to get to the old skin at login and that's all. I sometimes check it to see if any changes have been made but to me "go" is a throwaway. Sometimes a good idea after being implemented isn't such a good idea. I believe "go" is one of them.

Hi, I>T,


"I'm not asking anyone to prove anything to me. This can't be done. I am simply asking how someone could base their life on something that no one knows whether its true or not" Quote

Somebody asked Blaise Pascal the same question and he came up with something known as 'Pascal's Wager'.

Even though God's existence cannot be proven we should wager in such a fashion as though his existence is assured. Some people don't have the ability to believe but they should live their lives as though God does exist. If you live your life like as a believer and God actually does exist then you have everything to gain. If it turns out God doesn't exist then you have lost nothing.

TUT, I have to state this, and hope it makes sense.

If you believe just to cover your bases, just in case God does exist, don't you think that the God that Christians believe in will know that your heart isn't in it? If this Christian God truly does exist, then going through the paces, that won't cut it.

Personally, I've always believed that if a loving Christian God does exist, then living a good life, being a good person, is all that's needed. Church is man made, not God made. Religious beliefs are man made. Religious teachings, man made.

So, do you really think that a Christian God will turn people away from heaven because they didn't go to church every Sunday? I don't think so.

If there is a God, won't he see the truth? Won't the Christian that goes to church, preaches the word of God, pretends to be so good an kind, but cheats on his wife, beats his kids, go to hell? Won't the Atheist that donates money to charity, volunteers with the homeless, is kind to his fellow man, go to heaven?

If not, there's something seriously wrong with this system.

Very well said Alty.

I donate a % of my check to United Way, I am in the service and voulnteer for T4T's, 4-H, etc... I don't beat my wife, I don't cheat on my wife, etc... am I to be denied entry into Heaven?

I agree with Alty, everything you said shows me your actions are based of mere benefits. This shows me you're selfish and are only doing this for your own sake. This puts doubt behind motive, intention and your true feelings. If I can see this, then a proposed God would see this. Your intentions are hindered while mine are pure.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

TUT, I have to state this, and hope it makes sense.

If you believe just to cover your bases, just in case God does exist, don't you think that the God that Christians believe in will know that your heart isn't in it? If this Christian God truly does exist, then going through the paces, that won't cut it.

Personally, I've always believed that if a loving Christian God does exist, then living a good life, being a good person, is all that's needed. Church is man made, not God made. Religious beliefs are man made. Religious teachings, man made.

So, do you really think that a Christian God will turn people away from heaven because they didn't go to church every Sunday? I don't think so.

If there is a God, won't he see the truth? Won't the Christian that goes to church, preaches the word of God, pretends to be so good an kind, but cheats on his wife, beats his kids, go to hell? Won't the Atheist that donates money to charity, volunteers with the homeless, is kind to his fellow man, go to heaven?

If not, there's something seriously wrong with this system.

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Hi Alty,

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

One cannot simply will himself/herself to believe in something they 'know' to be false. Besides, God probably doesn't want us to hedge our bets.

The argument is also suspect because it only puts forward two possibilities. God exists or God doesn't exist. God may turn out to be not sufficiently like us to say that he exists in the sense that we understand existence. There are other problems with the argument as well. I> T's quote reminded me of Pascal.

Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by ITstudent2006

Very well said Alty.

I donate a % of my check to United Way, I am in the service and voulnteer for T4T's, 4-H, etc... I don't beat my wife, I don't cheat on my wife, etc... am I to be denied entry into Heaven?
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Hi I>T,

It is my opinion (for what it is worth) that you won't be denied entry into heaven. If you are a good person regardless of your beliefs, religious or otherwise then you are on a pretty safe bet.


Regards

Tut