In response to a question asked by Sndbay

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Altenweg,

I am a little baffle by your statement of proof wanted. From what I have studied the religion of Deism was of the Gentiles. There were five common notions known.

1. There is one Supreme God.
2. He ought to be worshipped.
3. Virtue and piety are the chief parts of divine worship.
4. We ought to be sorry for our sins and repent of them
5. Divine goodness doth dispense rewards and punishments both in this life and after it.

What changed that idea was a theory of knowledge based on experience. John Locke who was not deist, turned the theory to natural theology and to arguments based on experience and nature.

Matthew Tinal argued against special revelation "God designed all mankind that should at all times know, what God wills them to know, believe, profess, and practice; and has given them no other means for this, but the Use of Reason. This was termed the Deist bible based on experience or human reason.

A modern definition today is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation.

Each of these even the newer interpretation have a foundation of knowing a greater force then man. Example meets that of proof in a God.

So is it that you believe there is a God, but don't believe He is a caring God? What is the reasoning behind your thoughts?


Off thread.

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I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

As for my belief. Let me describe Deism;

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Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion. Deists tend to, but do not necessarily, reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, such as by miracles and revelations. These views contrast with a dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Judeo-Christian, Islamic and other theistic teachings.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life or by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.

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Want to know more?

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For once, Wickepedia is very accurate. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

In response to a question asked by Sndbay


I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

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So in the reasoning you think God being perfect should have made us perfect? (All of Us)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

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So even if God did make us perfect, you reason that God must keep us perfect, not allow us choices? You hold God accountable to everyone's actions? Don't place us in hope of dreams we think up, instead just restick, prohabit, and mandate to force the control?

Is this what you want?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

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Do you live in hell?

I won't tell you that, because I trust God does want us to be perfect. I believe God has shown us many many ways in which He can bless us, and that He has blessed us. I have three beautiful children grown who always will be the color in my life. I have traveled to many beautiful places, and experience friendly, loving people. And I have seen nature full of color in fall, white in winter, and green in summer. I can sit outside at night with a campfire, to see the sky, and feel the wind, and smell the campfire. These things are all apart of what God has given out of love. I am thankful for all.

I admit I wish that this all could be exactly the perfection that God's hand of strength would give everyone. But as I reason my freedom in choice in doing what I do, I enjoy giving my children what I feel they can enjoy. I hope and dream for them to be happy and offer them several means of fun and pleasure.

What if we have what we want, and the choice goes against what God holds as perfect? Then we are back to what God mandates as perfect.

Altenweg, I feel this is what we have now, and people do not listen to the do's and don't. God gave us the ordained law. People would not be happy any other way then what is given right now in liberty of law. What has gone wrong isn't what God wants for us, it is what we ourselves have chosen in the liberty of God's law. The liberty to love, to be kind, and not fight, rape, and steal from others is what God wants.

God's way is straight, but for us to be happy we have to all want the same love and caring ways of life. I believe that is what God is watching over us to find. And in this liberty comes the liberty of Faith and Trust God wants us to hold as HIS promise. That time will come...

In the mean time, could you get everyone to stop their sin and evil ways to do what God asks..

"It is said that God can do anything within the laws of logic. The truth of the matter is we can have no idea of what an illogical universe would look like." - Ludwig Wittgenstein.

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So in the reasoning you think God being perfect should have made us perfect? (All of Us)

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No, not make us perfect but surely look out for us. Getting cancer has nothing to do with being perfect, it's a disease. Why does God allow people to die of cancer? Being raped is not the fault of the victim, why does God allow it to happen? So many things that, if God really loved us and cared for us, wouldn't happen. The fact that they do happen is proof enough for me that God created the world then walked away.

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Do you live in hell?

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No, but then I don't expect eternal life in heaven, so my expectations are a bit lower. What I tried to say is that those that follow the bible, believe in a caring loving God, they are doing so in hopes of eternity in heaven, so this must be hell, because of all the suffering that they're willing to put up with when they believe in a God that could, according to their beliefs, end that suffering. The fact that He does nothing to end it, that would mean we are in fact in hell. Just my way of thinking.

I too have many blessings, two beautiful children, a husband that I still love, my life is good, but only because I won't let it be bad.

I've also had a lot of pain and suffering. I lost both my parents to cancer, 6 1/2 months apart, watched them suffer, lost the two people that brought me into this world, two people I loved more then I can ever explain. During that time I still believed in a Christian God. I prayed, I begged, I would have given my life, but the God of the bible didn't listen, didn't care.

When I was 5 years old I was molested by my cousin, my babysitter, this lasted for years. I prayed every night for it to stop, God didn't stop it. My mistake, I should have told my parents, human beings, because they would have seen an end to it. God didn't.

When I was 18 I was raped. Where was God then? He wasn't with me, and at that time I still believed.

No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.

I do respect your right to believe, for some people it brings comfort, peace. If that's what the bible and your faith does for you then who am I to question your right to it? But, my peace comes from knowing that I can count on myself and my family to do everything in our power not to let evil into our lives. Will I succeed? Probably not, because evil is everywhere, but I do know that when it comes to my home, I won't be sitting in a corner praying, I'll use those hands for another purpose.

What is given is given. Shall I now sit down at the feast, and declare it is not to my taste!! To what shall I comapre existence to? Non existence? Please tell me what that is, if you have wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Tokugawa

What is given is given. Shall I now sit down at the feast, and declare it is not to my taste!?!? To what shall I comapre existence to? Non existence? Please tell me what that is, if you have wisdom.

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What?

Satre speaks of the absurdity of life, existence. Why is there anything at all? Our whole state of being is gratutious! In fact it is an absurdity! We are thrown into exsitence, and then thrown out!

Wittgenstein tells us that we cannot speak of existence at all, as in order to do so, we would have to compare it to non existence, to establish what existence is. Try thinking of non existence, and tell me what you see. You will of course be thinking of something, perhaps black empty space, which does exist.

Neitzsche tells us to sing, love, hate, and create. Life resembles nothing as much as a founderd boat that may sink at any moment. One is sure that it will sink, one cannot be sure when.

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Originally Posted by Tokugawa

Satre speaks of the absurdity of life, existence. Why is there anything at all? Our whole state of being is gratutious!! In fact it is an absurdity!! We are thrown into exsitence, and then thrown out!!

Wittgenstein tells us that we cannot speak of existence at all, as in order to do so, we would have to compare it to non existence, to establish what existence is. Try thinking of non existence, and tell me what you see. You will of course be thinking of something, perhaps black empty space, which does exist.

Neitzsche tells us to sing, love, hate, and create. Life resembles nothing as much as a founderd boat that may sink at any moment. One is sure that it will sink, one cannot be sure when.

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Existence, non existence, I try very hard not to think about that, I'd rather just live in the moment.

Will I die? Of course I will. What will worrying about it do for me? I don't need an ulcer. I don't wish to spend my life thinking about my death.

Is there a heaven? I don't know. I can't say, never been there. It's a nice dream, I truly hope that heaven is real, there is hope in that. But to spend my life striving for heaven, no. I can't do that, because the only way (according to bible fearing folks) to get into heaven is to follow every rule in that man written book called the bible. A book that is so unrealistic and illogical that it still amazes me that anyone would believe that it's non fiction.

Life may not resemble anything to Neitzsche, but to me life is hope. Life is the opportunity to live, love, make your corner of the world a better place. If one constantly lives in fear of death then yes, life will not resemble anything, because you're not living.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

No, not make us perfect.

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As Rabbi Kushner said in his book, When bad things happen to good people, God made us perfect and then took a giant step back in order to give us free will and not force us to be His puppets. We took that free will and screwed up royally, taking all of creation down with us.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

But to spend my life striving for heaven, no. I can't do that

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I don't either. I already know I'm going there. No striving necessary.

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the only way (according to bible fearing folks) to get into heaven is to follow every rule in that man written book called the bible.

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They've got it all wrong if that is what they believe.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.

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Altenweg,

By your own admission you reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, and can determine using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for faith.

So let me say that I am not unsympathic to your experiences in life. I, myself have experienced the lost of my father, and my first husband by cancer. My sister, and I have both, experience sexual lust by evil gain. Both reacting in a similar determined matter to your own, in thinking it was bettter not to tell anyone.
I reason the delusion of thoughts we share, as a lack of knowledge (age fact) in what discipine for each individual should be. And that fact does give the assailant reason to think nothing will be said to stop them.

I would like reason for what has caused our public to lightly put their foot down, and treat the offensive behavior as only perhaps less then normal. What has by all previous experience shown the results of rape should be measured more lightely then the death penalty of an infant by a rape victim. Most usually this reasoning is tipped one way and the other, rather then by a straight line of discernment. (right or wrong)

Tell me by reasoning, if we gave the death penalty to the assailant would it engage a more likely assumption to not risk ing their own life?

My point being that the reasoning that you have found more comfort with rather then surrendering to the will of God, is likely to be God's all knowing ability in permitting us to reap what we have sown.

I have walked both sides of right and wrong,(we all do) and I am not proud of the hurt and pain my path has done, and has suffered. And I believe that is why we needed Christ for our forgiveness. I trust NOW in the One Baptism that gives me a conscience toward God's Will being done. And I pray to never hurt or cause pain for anyone.. that evil will bow down and flee from me.

Because by all reasoning we have all done things we are not pleased to look back on.


Altenweg, you have, and are what you believe "That God has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life "


God does permit you what your heart believes

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

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Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

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This points to one of the questions I've raised before, namely why what we think ought to be so must be so? There are many things about the natural world that just don't seem right, that make us cringe and want to rebel. But not liking the way things are doesn't change reality. Why have so many human tragedies happened just when they did? For example, why did AIDS hit the gay community when it did destroying the lives of about half the gay men in my generation? How could something like that happen? That it seemed impossible or crazy at the time didn't change the fact that it happened.

So the point is that not liking the idea of an indifferent god, perhaps a deist version of god, has no logical connection to whether that god does or doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

So the point is that not liking the idea of an indifferent god, perhaps a deist version of god, has no logical connection to whether that god does or doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

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But then this can also be applied to many of your previous statements in many other threasds regarding the non existence of a caring God. Just because you don't like the idea of a caring God who allows suffering for reasons which are beyond our understanding has no logical connection to whether that God does, or doesn't exist!

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Originally Posted by elscarta

But then this can also be applied to many of your previous statements in many other threasds regarding the non existance of a caring God. Just because you don't like the idea of a caring God who allows suffering for reasons which are beyond our understanding has no logical connection to whether that God does, or doesn't exist!

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I agree. Which is why I ask that the argument move beyond the childish "It just doesn't seem right" level.

But that doesn't mean you cannot ask better questions like this one of Bertrand Russell's: If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world, do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan?

I found this and sent this in a message, what do you make of this article?

Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin - Yahoo! News

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

But that doesn't mean you cannot ask better questions like this one of Bertrand Russell's: If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world, do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan?

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I disagree that this is a better question. It argues that an omniscient and omnipotent God should be able to create a perfect world, and since the world is far from perfect, even after millions upon millions of years, therefore an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot exist. But really what it argues is that "If the ultimate goal of an omniscient and omnipotent God is a perfect world then since the world is far from perfect even after millions upon millions of years such a God has had more than enough time to create a perfect world and therefore cannot exist."

Two problems I see with this question are:
How do we know what are the ultimate goal(s) of an omniscient and omnipotent God?
Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

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That falls right into the "religion is based on faith no facts" argument. If the timeline is long enough then no one will ever the "intended" result.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That falls right into the "religion is based on faith no facts" argument. If the timeline is long enough then no one will ever the "intended" result.

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Not so, I was just trying to point out that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to the same time constraints as we are. Also while it has been nearly 15 billion years since the beginning of the universe, it has not been very long that we have been able to think about God, and our relationship with God is one of the other possible ultimate goals.

I guess my point is that you can promise the masses pretty much anything if it's never going to happen in their lifetime.

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Originally Posted by elscarta

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.



I disagree that this is a better question. It argues that an omniscient and omnipotent God should be able to create a perfect world, and since the world is far from perfect, even after millions upon millions of years, therefore an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot exist. But really what it argues is that "If the ultimate goal of an omniscient and omnipotent God is a perfect world then since the world is far from perfect even after millions upon millions of years such a God has had more than enough time to create a perfect world and therefore cannot exist."

Two problems I see with this question are:
How do we know what are the ultimate goal(s) of an omniscient and omnipotent God?
Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

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Yes, I see the point. But what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what? Are we to worship god merely because he is more powerful than anything else in our world? Are we not to hold him to the same moral standards of everyone else? If not, then why not? These are particularly important questions I recall Bertrand Russell asking but ones I see rarely addressed.

Another excellent reason to embrace deism: if god is not good but does not intervene in human affairs it really doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

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Hi Elliot,

Sorry that it took so long to get back to you, for some reason I wasn't getting notifications for this thread. :(

No, I don't know why God created the world and walked away. I don't even know if he did. My belief in Deism is just that, belief. Yes, it is a belief that I based on research but not research that definitely points to Deism. There is no absolute proof that my belief is right, it's just my belief.

Having said that, my answer is based on that belief, not on fact, because there are no facts, not for Deism or any other belief.

Why would God create something as wonderful as this world and then walk away? Well, he's God, a God. Why would I build a bird house and then never watch it to see who comes to use it? Because I can. Why would I start an ant farm then leave it alone to see what happens? Because I can. Creation doesn't mean love. You don't have to love something in order to create it. You don't have to nurture something after you've created it. It's a choice. My belief is that God chose to create and then leave.

There simply isn't any evidence that a loving, caring God exists. Belief in God is just that, belief. To base that belief on a man written book is at least as questionable as my belief. There simply isn't any proof.

Deism makes sense to me. I can keep the belief in God while also making sense of the hardship in this world, the lack of proof that God really does care. In a lot of ways I have the best of both worlds, but I know most of you don't see it that way.

If none of this makes sense please forgive me, I ran out of coffee this morning so I'm drinking tea. It simply doesn't have the same kick. ;)

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But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.

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My question is as simply as yours.

Why would God allow all the suffering?

No one has ever been able to answer this questions sufficiently. All I ever hear as a response to this question is that we're supposed to suffer in order to gain eternal life in heaven.

That makes no sense. Why would a caring loving God make us prove our love for Him by making us suffer?

It's a test. A cruel, impossible test. No one can hope to live up to the standards that the stories of the bible teach. No living human can hope to achieve the perfection that God apparently wants. Oh, but believe and you will be forgiven. Go to church every Sunday, confess your sins, repent for raping your neighbors child, beg forgiveness for cheating on your taxes, say you're sorry for beating your wife and all will be forgiven.

I live my life differently. You see, I only have to answer to myself and my family, to the people around me. I'm not perfect, but I don't rely on a God for forgiveness of my sins, therefore I do my best not to sin in the first place. No, I don't always succeed, but I don't always fail either. ;)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why would God allow all the suffering?

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Let me answer this question with another question. How much do you value your freedom to make your own decisions about anything and everything in your life, your beliefs, thoughts, actions etc?

Free will necessitates a world where suffering is possible, as one of the possible choices that can be made is the hurting of other people.

I'm not saying that free will is the only reason or cause of suffering, just that it is part of it.

You also have mentioned in a previous post, some of the suffering that you have been through in your life. In what way has this suffering affected you, besides changing your belief about God? Has it made you a stronger person, more protective of your family?

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Let me answer this question with another question. How much do you value your freedom to make your own decisions about anything and everything in your life, your beliefs, thoughts, actions etc?

Free will necessitates a world where suffering is possible, as one of the possible choices that can be made is the hurting of other people.

I'm not saying that free will is the only reason or cause of suffering, just that it is part of it.

You also have mentioned in a previous post, some of the suffering that you have been through in your life. In what way has this suffering affected you, besides changing your belief about God? Has it made you a stronger person, more protective of your family?

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My suffering has made me a hard person in many ways. I've put a protective shell around my heart that very few can penetrate. Sadly, I've been told I'm not as tough as I think I am.

The only thing that my suffering has done is made me weary of everything around me. My daughter is 7 years old now, two years older then I was when I was molested. My husband and I don't go out without the kids, there's only one person I trust to watch them and he lives 1 hour away and works most weekends. I'm overly protective in a lot of ways, but I know what monsters lurk in shadows, I won't allow myself to let my guard down. No one is above suspicion, I will not let my children become victims.

I know that one day I will die of cancer. It's inevitable. The sad thing is, both my husband and I have passed those genes to our kids. Both sets of parents died of this disease and it's likely my children will lose their parents to this disease as well.

Yes, my suffering has made me stronger, but I wouldn't wish that "strength" on anyone. What I learned is the worst lesson of all. I found the strength to survive, because I had to, but I'm not a better person for it, not at all.

We can ultimately believe anything and have right to but how can you believe without some sort of faith even if it is blind and not timed? No proof; just faith - to some it is next to impossible and so believe in the theory of logic's, facts – science and to others books and idols. Some believe in both science and universe theories. I am Catholic and I did look into other religions and found that I couldn't be anything more then Catholic in the end. Every religion has rituals, beliefs and some are wonderful to experience. I researched tid-bits into Buddhism, Hinduism, Law of Attraction, Lutheran, Christian and Spiritualist (New Movement), oh and of course the Divinity tools available by psychics (which is like Mediumship, Tarots…etc).

Just my words and thoughts to this wonderful exchange of ideas, being Catholic, and as you all know, as per the Bible, God did create the world and rested on the seventh day (Sunday or Sabbath Day – day of rest/holiness). Since Eve bit the apple then sin began (temptation). It states that we are all born in sin. If we are born sinful then so is the world we live in. God was not impressed and ended up burning a city down, condemned the wicked/pagans etc. Later he flooded the world and washed the sins of man away. After this, he said that he would never flood the world again or interfere with mankind because he loved his creation. He also made us special from all the creatures and gave us the ability to advance (we advanced technologically and scientifically) and that we each have spirit (Life after Death). We have come to the place in life we are; all the good and bad because of the mass movement of ideas and intentions. We also have our history in which we document and learn from and continue to educate new generations in hope that they will succeed where previous have failed. We all live here with purpose. We have choice.

As for God not caring, he does care, care enough not to destroy us but let us destroy ourselves. Yes, in the Catholic religion, God should be loved, respected and feared. We are destructive and unfortunately everyone gets hurt. But the pain we experience here is a test of faith it is apart of the great plan and those that suffer will not suffer but be rewarded with the promise of God - Heaven. The plagues and everything in the Revolutions can be interpreted many, many ways and our end could just be our own demise. As it goes for natural disasters…there is talk about the sun having explosions on the surface (which there is a technical name for but I am NO scientist), earth shifting, poles melting, us utilizing natural resources (jungles, forests, coal, oil, crops – land) the ozone layer being depleted because of garbage, pollution and testing nuclear bombs? The Gay community was plagued by AIDS, the general public was plagued by AIDS, expecting mothers, those committing in unnatural sex (bestiality, child molestation, prostitution…everything) all mankind is infected by STI's and AID's and every other plague because of these sins and because we are at the bottom of the food chain (after viruses)…and Because of God? Or because of us as mankind? Look at T.V. Jerry Springer, Maury Povich, Steve Wilkos…and so on and so on…why shouldn't we be destroyed? We even thrive off other peoples failures! But still there are some very wonderful things about our world and that is what we should all focus on and preserve. Like a expectant mother, giving life, a flower blooming in the spring, the compassion, family and good people. It looks really bleak but there is good. God exists in you if you believe he does…have faith that he does. He also exists if you do and live honestly…that is the proof – the good in us; the beauty of the world around us physically and how much joy and peace we feel just from one moment... maybe a moment you will carry with you and go to when things just are not going right... its the one experience that keeps you going. But God does know we are doomed... the beauty of it is his patience and ability to forgive as well as our ability to repent and reject sin.

As it goes for the concept of “what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what?” It is not the goals of God but the goals of man. Here we can choose to follow the Laws of God but we have no choice but to follow the Law of Man. We are always trying to invent, make life easy, advance technologically, learn, evolve and experience the world and the universe and thus equip ourselves with knowledge tools (space rockets) to obtain the means of understanding our world and that surrounding it. It is the documented history of technology, wars, hardships, misunderstandings or human error, intelligence versus the ego and hate (which is actually fear) which leads to religious debates, genocide, racists, sexists, wars, politics, law, law enforcement, control and weapons. I kind of lean to the fact that we are trying to create a perfect world but we fail to look at the fact that being imperfect is a beautiful thing…look at everything we can share and learn. I don't know…maybe I am out of line, I just like to point out our own flaws instead of blaming someone, something or everything or anything for our mistakes.

As it goes for the “Book”, honestly, it is listed in time line from apostles to profits, to people like you and me that tell a story. Could it have been based on facts? Or has it been told so many times that is changed from Old to New Testament and Revised? Should we believe? Has the truth been lost? What validation do we need? Where did it originate from and why? We could ask questions or we can have faith in what is being said is true? Our choice. What I do believe is the Bible holds lessons and actually a lot of it is common sense about how we should treat each other, I go by that, but I also have a special relationship with God as well. So from each individual to another it will differ…here is another one, note that there are some remarks that are sexist in the bible like when men talk about God a woman should not discuss it between men – she should hold her tongue (this is why priests are men and not women). Also, that a man should not have sex with us when we are on our period because we are sinful then…as well as 6 weeks after birth. Eve bit the apple so her punishment is ours. Like if one person breaks man made Law then new Laws become evolved to add preventive measures - just because one person carries a gun and commits a crime an innocent, law abiding citizen can not carry a gun because of what someone else done (which of course I don't agree with carrying a gun)... maybe a bad example but I know you got the point. A lot of interesting stuff and in some way it does make sense but again, we choose. History, what a lovely concept but we are slowly getting smarter…that is if we stop being driven by fear and take responsibility. We know that is the impossible.

So as brothers and sisters we should believe and have faith in God, even a deist believes in something – it might not be the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ but you believe in God. If he created the Universe and everything in it, you, then you should believe in him and trust that he will not destroy something he created nor ignore it…he will and has endowed us to be sinful and to make choices. He hears our prayers but if he solved everything for us then what could we possibly learn? What mankind does to mankind effects everyone and we are to blame ourselves. No one can tell you what not or what to believe in. Unfortunately, everyone defends their faith but we should do everything with love and compassion. Maybe religion is constructed to breed fear in misbehavior of what is morally right? But then again, people are entitled to believe and they also are entitled not to. Maybe I am an idealist or a humanitarian…my thoughts.

Yes I type really fast :) - hehe

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why would I build a bird house and then never watch it to see who comes to use it? Because I can. Why would I start an ant farm then leave it alone to see what happens? Because I can.

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Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the end result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

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Of course they are going to die, they have no natural resources... we do. We where given everything for survival... poor ants they are in a glass relying on the owner to provide.

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the end result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

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Okay, the ant farm was a bad example. The bird house is more apt.

Having said that, I have built a bird house, a really nice one I might add, and then walked away. I assume that birds have lived in it, they may even enjoy it. I don't know because I never checked. I built it for the birds, not so that I could nurture and care for them, but because I wanted to build it. What they do with it now that it's built is up to them and none of my concern. I'm just the creator.

In your post you seem to think that God is moral. Of course I have a problem with people who harm any living thing, except flies and mosquitos, they're fair game. ;) The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?

I'm actually being far kinder to the idea of God then you are. You see, I believe in the bird house where you actually do believe in the ant farm. The only difference is, in your ant farm he doesn't walk away, he's actually very involved, sees their pain and does nothing about it.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

My suffering has made me a hard person in many ways. I've put a protective shell around my heart that very few can penetrate. Sadly, I've been told I'm not as tough as I think I am.

The only thing that my suffering has done is made me weary of everything around me. My daughter is 7 years old now, two years older then I was when I was molested. My husband and I don't go out without the kids, there's only one person I trust to watch them and he lives 1 hour away and works most weekends. I'm overly protective in a lot of ways, but I know what monsters lurk in shadows, I won't allow myself to let my guard down. No one is above suspicion, I will not let my children become victims.

I know that one day I will die of cancer. It's inevitable. The sad thing is, both my husband and I have passed those genes to our kids. Both sets of parents died of this disease and it's likely my children will lose their parents to this disease as well.

Yes, my suffering has made me stronger, but I wouldn't wish that "strength" on anyone. What I learned is the worst lesson of all. I found the strength to survive, because I had to, but I'm not a better person for it, not at all.

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In death there is rebirth. I am sorry for your suffering. I have been told by many elders that the closer you are to death; the closer you become to God. Only when you can face death; you can truly live. You are truly a remarkable person.

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Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine

Only when you can face death; you can truly live.

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You don't think one can truly live without facing death first?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You don't think one can truly live without facing death first?

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Well you can live... but you can live without purpose... or you can live for the future and not today... we grope about how life sucks when we should embrace it, learn and grow from it. Until you "understand" death that you will truly appreciate the essence of life. Death not being literal because we are living and so if we must literally die before we live... then we where doomed to begin with :). But death in a sense of letting something go in order to receive the truth... enlightenment. Like death of an old idea/friendship/life change - people, place or thing only to allow for the new (rebirth) opportunity or understanding. Once we realize how fragile we actually are do we really appreciate everything we know and have come to have or understand.

Birth - Death - Rebirth

I know how fragile we are. I don't need to "to receive the truth" (which means nothing really) in order to live for today and tomorrow. If religion gives you a purpose to keep on living them that works for you. Not everyone needs that though.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?

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This is the wrong premise that you are belaboring. God doesn't hurt. He is only Love. We have caused the hurt. We continue to cause the hurt. The universe is stuck in hurt because of us.

You said, "There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets" and asked "Why does God allow them to die?" The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

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Have you seen any of the US Healthcare discussions on this board? Truly disheartening. :(

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

This is the wrong premise that you are belaboring. God doesn't hurt. He is only Love. We have caused the hurt. We continue to cause the hurt. The universe is stuck in hurt because of us.

You said, "There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets" and asked "Why does God allow them to die?" The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

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True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.

God giving his children cancer is the same thing as the creator of the ant farm burning the ants with a magnifying glass. It's destruction. How can a loving God destroy what he claims to love?

There are many things in this world that we can change, but for things that we can't, you have to ask, why does God allow it if he really cares?

Cancer proves my belief more then anything else. At least to me it does.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I know how fragile we are. I don't need to "to receive the truth" (which means nothing really) in order to live for today and tomorrow. If religion gives you a purpose to keep on living them that works for you. Not everyone needs that though.

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The concept of Birth, Death to Rebirth is anything but Religious... it is a concept. I don't recall involving religion in that particular post. Though when you talk about God it is hard not to bring up the discussion of Religion/Theories/Concepts/Science - being Deist, Catholic, Protestant or believing in the Karmic Law... whatever. In my last post I did but if you read it (which is I imagine is exhaustively long :)) you would actually see that I agree with you on what works for you works for you. No doubt you know how fragile life is... sorry if you took it the wrong way; maybe I should have said it without it being a statement? Sorry anyway it wasn't said the way you might have thought I intended it to be understood.

Peace

Everything happening around the world points us to the fact that we are here only for a little while, whether we die naturally without pain or in suffering.

Those of us who is ill, appreciates life more and values relationships more than those who think we have until we are 100 to form our bonds and show we care.

About some of our sufferings.

Famines,droughts are more common now because the whole world has been depleting the natural resources available to the whole world.
The natural world is not unaffected just because I am cutting down thousands of trees in a far far away land without replenishing whatever I take.

The rainwater,oceans,rivers everything did not become polluted on its own spreading diseases far and wide. It was our dumping of chemicals in one tiny bit of ocean at a time that has reached worldwide consequences.

Hunting,fishing in a wasteful way using methods that cause destruction to the environment has made our food chain weak.

Our greed for money has made us feed chemicals to our livestocks, crops, and this in turn has helped mutate so many diseases from our own food chain into our bodies.

AIDs and related diseases spread more through sexual activities and for those of us who are monotheists have guidelines to not take sex casually, that it be within marital boundaries.

From a monotheists view, I believe we were given guidelines on what to do and what not to do, yet we ignored all of it and went on feeding our baser selves and the consequences are not just effecting us, but everyone else who shares the very air we breathe (even that we have poisoned with our own doings ).

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Have you seen any of the US Healthcare discussions on this board? Truly disheartening. :(

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Yes, it truly is disheartening that so many people think that the US government is going to take care of their health care after seeing the mess that the same government has made of Medicare, Medicaid, the VA Medical System, the Native American Health System, Social Security, the US Postal Service, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the USDA, and NASA... and pretty much every other organization that it has created. The blind faith in the government's ability and desire to help us in the face of all the evidence otherwise is very disheartening.

Frankly, it's easier to put your faith in an all-powerful G-d than it is to put your faith in an all-powerful government.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.

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Of course, cancer IS something we can do anything about! God has given us brains and analytical abilities in order to fight and defeat cancer... and AIDS and CP and MS and ALS and the other letter combinations in the alphabet soup of diseases. And medical research has already found ways to lengthen the life of and even cure those who have diseases.

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God giving his children cancer

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God is not the source of cancer.