Ask Me Help Desk - God and the Bible

God and the Bible

The Bible contains two main parts : the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Both are claimed to be valid Testaments, either written by God or written by humans who were guided by God.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction :
Jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak, a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic capriciously malevolent bully. (Dawkins).

Christianity - based on Jesus Christ - from the New Testament - has fortunately a rather different - less violent and more peaceful approach towards humanity.

The unconvincing part is where the Trinity dogma states that the God of the Old Testament is one and the same as the Jesus from the New Testament (and as the Holy Spirit).

How can these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT be combined, and still maintain any credibility??

Please no lists of bible quotations : just state your own reasoning!!

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Hello Cred:

Well, lemee see here. The Jews follow the Old Testament - and they're pretty good people. They DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong.

Christians do that stuff. So, maybe having a real mean God is good for you.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

The Jews follow the Old Testament - and they're pretty good people.

Yes indeed. The Jews are not the problem here. They don't have the problem of contradicting books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Christians do that stuff.

Christians use both the OT and the NT, so for them both Bible books are God's words...
Therefore I am waiting for a Christian to explain how they can live with both Bible books, added to which is the Trinity problem...

Thanks for your reaction !

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

The Bible contains two main parts : the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Both are claimed to be valid Testaments, either written by God or written by humans who were guided by God.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction :
jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak, a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic capriciously malevolent bully. (Dawkins).

Christianity - based on Jesus Christ - from the New Testament - has fortunately a rather different - less violent and more peaceful approach towards humanity.

The unconvincing part is where the Trinity dogma states that the God of the Old Testament is one and the same as the Jesus from the New Testament (and as the Holy Spirit).

How can these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT be combined, and still maintain any credibility ???

Please no lists of bible quotations : just state your own reasoning !!!

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Come on Cred, don't use the word of God to defend God? How disingenuous is that? :confused:
You might as well defend global warming without using temperature readings. ;)
You can't have a reasoned discussion based on your pre-requisites.

You know, the Dawkins quote can be applied to humanity in general. Look at what's going on in India or Darfur or the Congo or with white slavery or the toll drug abuse takes on families, children and society.

g&p

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthebox

Come on Cred, don't use the word of God to defend God?!

I did not ask you to defend "God". I asked you how these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT can be combined, and still maintain any credibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthebox

You know, the Dawkins quote can be applied to humanity in general.

That may be so, but humanity is not an example of a supernatural omniscient omnipotent entity. The "God" of the bible is claimed to be such person.
Again : therefore I asked you how these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT can be combined, and still maintain any credibility.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Here is a simple way to think about it.

In both OT and NT sin is punished.

In the OT a sacrifice was required for the atonement [ I'm not sure that is the correct theological term ] for sins.

In the NT, Jesus Christ is the sacrifice that atones for our sins.

Same theme. :);)

g&p

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therefore I asked you how these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT can be combined, and still maintain any credibility.

They can't, which is why I don't follow either book.

I would like to answer your question. I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible from the Old to the New Testament.

God is the beginning and the end. There is no old and new God, what you are seeing in the old and new testaments are two different covenants.

In the old testament (before Jesus came) to be saved you had to follow the laws and traditions that God set forth. 10 commandments, sacrafices... not eating hoofed animals, etc. Only God's chosen people, the Jews could be saved if they followed His laws. God had a covenant for His chosen people.

In order to allow all of us to be saved both Jew and Gentile he realized that he needed a new covenant. That is where Jesus comes in. God sent His only son, Jesus to earth as a sacrifice to allows us the choice to be saved. The new covenant is tied to accepting Jesus as your only Lord and Savior and repenting from your sins. There is also some theories that you must be baptised, etc. the details differ from Christian demoninations.

The Trinity represents God, His son and the Holy Spirit. They have all existed since the beginning of time. I know God seemed like a different person in the OT vs. NT but read Revalations, you can see His wrath in the NT testament too.

I hope this helps

Uvware; thanks

Exactly, same God.

Sin is judged and punished.

The only thing "extreme" is that God would have His only son die for our sins :)

g&p

Quote:

Originally Posted by uvware

I would like to answer your question. I'm a Christian and I belive the Bible from the Old to the New Testament.

God is the beginning and the end. There is no old and new God, what you are seeing in the old and new testaments are two different covenants.

In the old testament (before Jesus came) to be saved you had to follow the laws and traditions that God set forth. 10 commandments, sacrafices....not eating hoofed animals, etc. Only God's chosen people, the Jews could be saved if they followed His laws. God had a covenant for His chosen people.

In order to allow all of us to be saved both Jew and Gentile he realized that he needed a new covenant. That is where Jesus comes in. God sent His only son, Jesus to earth as a sacrafice to allows us the choice to be saved. The new covenant is tied to accepting Jesus as your only Lord and Savior and repenting from your sins. There is also some theories that you must be baptised, etc. the details differ from Christian demoninations.

The Trinity represents God, His son and the Holy Spirit. They have all existed since the beginning of time. I know God seemed like a different person in the OT vs. NT but read Revalations, you can see His wrath in the NT testament too.

I hope this helps

Good answer.

The Christian apologetics position: the OT is an expansive history and the NT is a collection of letters. The OT covers a huge chunk of history from Creation to the Maccabean Era (the time between the testaments), whereas the NT covers only about a century.

As for intent, the OT is basically an instruction manual for forming a new nation (harsh because the emphasis had to be on law and the penalties for breaking that law), whereas the NT is an instruction manual for obtaining an intimate bond with God and reflecting his unconditional love in personal relationships.

In the Bible, God reveals himself in stages. In the OT, at the beginning, the part of God called the Father created the world and its creatures, put them in a Paradise-like setting, walked with them and talked with them, and also, like a good parent, set boundaries. Humanity crossed the boundaries, broke the connection with God, and Paradise was no more. God the Father established a fledgling nation as a handpicked representative of the world and tried to redeem them by establishing particular rules and regs, aka the Ten Commandments (OT law) that he hoped they would willingly obey out of love for him as their dear Father. Despite the fact that he helped them destroy the current occupants of the land that he promised to them and led them to, this new nation continually ignored and disobeyed the rules and regs.

Now we come to the NT. In unfailing love for this ragtag and ungrateful group of people, God the Father sent the part of him called the Son (Jesus) to earth to live a perfect life and fulfill (obey) the law perfectly (demonstrating the Old and New testaments as a cosmic good cop-bad cop routine). By this action, Jesus reestablished the broken connection between humanity and God the Father, and then enlisted the help of the part of God called the Holy Spirit to continue to bring people back to God by restoring the spiritual connection and then helping them remain connected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

... the OT is basically an instruction manual for forming a new nation ...

It is not relevant how and why the OT and the OT were written.
The "God" in both Testaments is still one and the same entity.

The bullying violent "God" of the OT is an entirely different character than the all-you-need-is-love "God" of the NT.
There is no valid way in which the totally different characters of "God" can be explained.

The trinity claim - adding Jesus ("God's" own son) and the Holy Spirit into the same entity further adds to the problem of credibility.

:)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

It is not relevant how and why the OT and the OT were written.

Yes, it is.

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The bullying violent "God" of the OT is an entirely different character than the all-you-need-is-love "God" of the NT.

Nope. They are one and the same, as I explained. All the eye-rolling in the world does not change that.

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There is no valid way in which the totally different characters of "God" can be explained.

I just did (they are "persons," not "characters"), based on Christian apologetics and many years of study.

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The trinity claim - adding Jesus ("God's" own son) and the Holy Spirit into the same entity further adds to the problem of credibility.

The Trinity is called (brace yourself) a mystery. Neither you nor I can fully understand it. I explained it as simply as I could, as Christianity understands it (N.B. the three major creeds of the Christian Church).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Nope. They are one and the same, as I explained.

Of course you may BELIEVE that...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Of course you may BELIEVE that ....

And you may not. (That eye rolling will make you sick, don't forget.)
:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

[QUOTE

The trinity claim - adding Jesus ("God's" own son) and the Holy Spirit into the same entity further adds to the problem of credibility.

Yup, and this is why true Christians do not follow this man made belief of God being three-in-one. Just doesn't add up. ;)

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Cred:

Well, lemee see here. The Jews follow the Old Testament - and they're pretty good people. They DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong

That is an invalid blanket statement because I happen to personaly know 2 VERY homophobic Jewish guys. So that in itself, makes your statement completely faulse ;)

Cred obviously has not read the book of Revelations if he thinks Jesus is all about Peace and sweetness. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassysback

That is an invalid blanket statement because i happen to personaly know 2 VERY homophobic Jewish guys. So that in itself, makes your statement completely faulse ;)

Hello S:

So, you know TWO homophobic Jews out of 12 MILLION, therefore my statement is false. Scuse me, faulse.

Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello S:

So, you know TWO homophobic Jews out of 12 MILLION, therefore my statement is false. Scuse me, faulse.

Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

Haha.. you said " (Jews) DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong."
So I just gave you two perfect examples of Jews who are homophobic therefore your statement is faulse. You may need to rephrase your statement. :rolleyes:

Hello again S:

I'm sorry you didn't get my communication. The problem, however, ain't with my delivery.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassysback

Cred obviously has not read the book of Revelations if he thinks Jesus is all about Peace and sweetness. :rolleyes:

No "s" at the end of Revelation, please.

That book has already come to pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassysback

Haha.. you said " (Jews) DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong."
So i just gave you two perfect examples of Jews who are homophobic therefore your statement is faulse. You may need to rephrase your statement. :rolleyes:

Well now I think we have found SassyT. Sounds like her, similar user name, in fact, it's pretty much advertising that she's SassyT.

Sassy, I personally don't know any Jews that are homophobic, so can I say that Jews don't discriminate against Gays?

I also know many Catholics that molested their children, so can I say that most Catholics are child molesters?

I don't think you're understanding Excons statement, maybe if you read it again? :rolleyes: (hey, look, I can roll my eyes too :))

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Well now I think we have found SassyT. Sounds like her, similar user name, in fact, it's pretty much advertising that she's SassyT.

Yes it is SassyT I'm back :cool:

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Sassy, I personally don't know any Jews that are homophobic, so can I say that Jews don't discriminate against Gays?

No, that is why I corrected Excon on making generalised statements.

[QUOTE]

Quote:

I also know many Catholics that molested their children, so can I say that most Catholics are child molesters?

I don't think you're understanding Excons statement, maybe if you read it again? :rolleyes: (hey, look, I can roll my eyes too :))

I think you are the one who has things twisted. Excon made a generalised blanket statement that ALL Jews are not Homophobic and that ALL Christains are homophobic. This is a faulse statement. That all I was saying because I know both Christians and Jews who are not Homophobic and I know Both Christains and Jews who are.

Briefly, God gave Man 4,000 years to prove that man CANNOT be good, no matter how many rules he is given.
Then, He sent His Son to keep those rules perfectly and is willing to credit mankind with the keeping of said rules IF mankind will simply accept it.

The matter of the wars and history of Israel is simply too long to explain in this venue.

I think that inthebox and all the Christians answered this quite well but Galveston summed it up best here.
If others can not comprehend then it is that they do not have to spiritual eyes to see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Cred:

Well, lemee see here. The Jews follow the Old Testament - and they're pretty good people. They DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong.

Christians do that stuff. So, maybe having a real mean God is good for you.

excon

Ex,

You err. Read the Old testament. THEY DID think that their GOD was the ONLY God AND in fact if you wanted to worship him you had to go to only their temple. I think in Israel even today you will find the orthodoxed jew still believes this even now. :)

Cred,

You ever going to say you are sorry... SassyT is is back... and she isn't ME! :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No "s" at the end of Revelation, please.

That book has already come to pass.

Wondergirl,

Hello? Revelation has come to pass?. umm I don't THINK so.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Wondergirl,

Hello? Revelation has come to pass???...umm I don't THINK so.

Oh, yes, it has!

Really Wondergirl? But false religion is still rife (Babylon the Great) and the devil still roams about the earth so in what way has it come to pass?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Really Wondergirl? But false religion is still rife (Babylon the Great) and the devil still roams about the earth so in what way has it come to pass?

I'm a Partial Preterist.

Oooh! That would explain it then.

I don't see how people can believe Revelation has come to pass.
After the 7 years tribulation comes the millennium of peace. For one thing have we had a thousand years of peace or are we in a thousand years of peace?

Went through twice and can't find the delete button

Nohelp,

I agree. Revelation hasn't happened at all but it will. I mean, are you going to tell me that Satan has been thrown in the bottomless pit for 1000 years AND the anit-christ a falst prophet are sent alive to the lake of fire.. let alone the whole great white throne judgement.

There are many people who fail to understand what was going on during the time when Israel took that area known then as Caanaan land. God made a promise to Eve and in order to bring that to pass, Israel had to maintain the family line. If it had amalgamated with any foreign nation, that line would have been lost.

There is something else to consider too. Foreigners could become citizens of Isreal if they wanted to. Even though Jerico was to be destroyed, some of its inhabitants became members of Isreal, to wit, Rahab and her family (number unknown). In fact, Rahab was in the lineage of Jesus of Nazareth, as was Ruth, the woman from Moab.

Even under the Old Covenant, mercy could be obtained.

Cred -

Without quoting bible verses, I will give you my take. The New Testament is absolutely no different than the Old Testament.

Paul says in Romans that whoever pursues his own self-interests will face the "wrath and fury of God."

Jesus said that when he returns that there will be a separation: those who believe in God will be spared from wrath but to those who don't believe "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Jesus said it would be worse for the city that rejects him on the day of judgment than for Sodom and Gemorrah... you know the story there, both cities were completely blown away (how much worse can it get?).

Jesus also says that on the day of judgment that many will come to him and say that they did many things in his name but that he never knew them and cast them into outer darkness.

My point is that you said the New Testament was less violent and more peaceful than the Old Testament... I don't think you've really read the New Testament very carefully because it is filled with language about God's wrath and his destruction of all those who practice immorality.

I know you didn't want to have bible verses quoted but how can you tell someone to stand on one leg without using a leg... it can't be done. Perhaps you want to see the New Testament in a touchy-feely, warm and fuzzy light; but since you have a low opinion of the Old Testament and the God of the Old Testament, why not be all the more willing to go the whole distance and see the New Testament the same way? At least you'd be critically honest then. But if you will not even allow someone to give you evidence from the New Testament that it is a bloody, condemning, wrath-inducing book, then you are not being honest at all... in my most humble opinion.

FYI, I happen to believe the New Testament but I am just trying to use your language concerning the Old Testament to get across my point... so any other readers who profess belief in the New Testament, my statements are not an indictment of the book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

... The New Testament is absolutely no different than the Old Testament.

I have no problem that you BELIEVE so. But for any unbiased person there is a clear difference to see between the OT and the NT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

My point is that you said the New Testament was less violent and more peaceful than the Old Testament...I don't think you've really read the New Testament very carefully because it is filled with language about God's wrath and his destruction of all those who practice immorality.

You think incorrectly. The different tenor between the two parts is clear to see for every unbiased reader.
Please note that one of your conclusions was correct : posting selected quotations from the bible are a total waste - at least as far as I am concerned. Almost everything can be "proved" and "disproved" by bible text quotations. Just another book, chapter, paragraph, line...

Thanks for your reaction !

:)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I have no problem that you BELIEVE so. But for any unbiased person there is a clear difference to see between the OT and the NT.

For those who have taken the time to study both, there is no difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

For those who have taken the time to study both, there is no difference.

For those who agree with that, I advice an urgent visit to a good optician...

:D

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