I personally believe there are big differences in the Catholic faith compared to protestant. Now I realize under different protestant denominations there are plenty of different doctrines but, in general about the fundementals of Christainity, I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism. I know catholics who do not call themselves Christian.. they prefer catholic. Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary, confess to a priest, believe in purgatory, have no assurance in salvation ( some don't even know what saved means) and the list goes on... I think it is different than Christianity. I understand that they believe that Jesus is GOD he died and rose again but for the most part.. I see a big difference.

And by the way, PLEASE do not take offense by any of this.. I am just asking. I'm not putting catholicism down... Fr_Chuck disagrees with me and I just thought I'd asked for some opinions.

[QUOTE=classyT;1318791] Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary, confess to a priest, believe in purgatory, have no assurance in salvationQUOTE]



I just don't understand what you mean by this, are you saying its wrong to prey to mary?

I am saying it isn't done in the protestant faith. As a Christian woman, I do NOT pray to Mary... I see no where in the Word where we are told to. My question is do you think Christians and Catholics are basically the same thing... I don't.

I think they are very different as well, I went to a catholic school and I also have christian friends and just having conversations with them I can see there are many differences. I do not know why catholics pray to mary, I personally don't, I have other beliefs ouside of the catholic religion, so I guess you could say I'm not truly a catholic, I believe you need to come to religion on your own, being pushed into something will not make you a full believer... sorry I went a little off topic there

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Originally Posted by classyT

I am saying it isn't done in the protestant faith. As a Christian woman, I do NOT pray to Mary....i see no where in the Word where we are told to. My question is do you think Christians and Catholics are basically the same thing...i don't.

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Indeed scripture says that it is an abomination to communicate with the dead.

Deut 18:9-13
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.
NKJV

1. Catholics don't pray to Mary, those that believe so have been lied to what the catholics do, there were a few sects within the church that did at some point but Mary and the other Saints are asked to go to Jesus for the other person, A "pray list" of such. No difference than a Baptist asking their next door neighbor to pray for them, we ask Mary to also pray for us.

In fact it is the Catholic Church that was the first church and the only church for 1100 years till they split with the Orthodox Church, and the then they were the two churches till Luther split, and even he did not want to split but did so with the help of the German princes for more political than religious issues.

But actually if you look at the Anglican ( church of England) and all related churches, they are so closer to Catholic than baptist or the Penticostal are.

In fact much of what you call the Protestant churches are much newer creatures that have came about over new meanings that man has determined of the scripture.

And I guess by the above, Jesus sinned when he talked to Moses on the Mount?

One has to really be careful taking one verse very out of context, since the above calls Jesus a sinner, which we know he can not be??

The Catholic church, helped save and form the bible we have today, the early synods of the Church are the basic for almost all Christian churches, the creeds are used in Lutheran, Methodist and more.
It was and is the first and largest of the Christian churches.

I moved this to the discussion since the very theme sort of violates the christianity rules, no negative on anothers christian faith.

Darn, I wrote a good answer and the question came up deleted, or whatever.

Anyway, historically, the Catholic Church was about believers needing a person to intercede between them and God... a priest, or a blessed person. Mary was and is a favorite.

"Hail Mary! full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, *pray for us sinners* now and at the hour of our death, Amen"

One of the greatest changes the Reformation made was allowing that illiterate believers could pray to God directly... an intercession was not necessary.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

1. Catholics don't pray to Mary, those that believe so have been lied to what the catholics do, there were a few sects within the church that did at some point but Mary and the other Saints are asked to go to Jesus for the other person, A "pray list" of such. No difference than a Baptist asking their next door neighbor to pray for them, we ask Mary to also pray for us.

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The Pope disagrees. Here is a quote straight from the Vatican website:

"Dear brothers and sisters, dear friends who are taking part in this celebration this morning, let us pray this prayer to Mary together. In the face of the sad spectacle of all the false joy and at the same time of all the anguished suffering which is spreading through the world, we must learn from her to become ourselves signs of hope and comfort; we must proclaim with our own lives Christ's Resurrection." (Source: Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 15 August 2008 - Homily of Pope Benedict XVI )

And I could provide mounds of additional backup from catholic sources. If we have been lied to, then we have been lied to from the highest levels of the leadership in the Roman Catholic Church.

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In fact it is the Catholic Church that was the first church and the only church for 1100 years till they split with the Orthodox Church, and the then they were the two churches till Luther split, and even he did not want to split but did so with the help of the German princes for more political than religious issues.

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The Roman Catholic Church did not exist as a single unit until 325 AD.

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But actually if you look at the Anglican ( church of England) and all related churches, they are so closer to Catholic than baptist or the Penticostal are.

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Agreed. That is because they are in fact Catholic. Henry VIII did not change anything but who was at the top, and any differences have occurred simply through evolution of the two denominations as they went on two different paths.

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And I guess by the above, Jesus sinned when he talked to Moses on the Mount?

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I assumed that you mean when He was transfigured into His gloried form as God? Why would it be a sin for God to speak to the dead?

That's right Tom, after discussions with Rome, Henry the VIII made himself the head of the church in England. English Catholic clergy and believers were required to chose Henry, not the Pope.

This caused lots of problems. His daughter, Mary, Queen of Scots was Catholic and his other daughter, Elizabeth I was a protestant... and so on :D

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Originally Posted by classyT

I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism. I know catholics who do not call themselves Christian ..they prefer catholic.

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You are as usual nitpicking here... All Roman Catholics see themselves as Christians too.

A Christian is someone who accept "God" as the "Creator" , and "Jesus Christ" as "Saviour".
As to the rest : there are presently almost 3000 different Christian Church organizations and denominations, all following their own selection of the "one and only true belief".

If that is correct, almost 2999 Christian Church organizations and denominations must have it wrong. Nonsense of course !

I wonder what drives so many millions of people into this intolerant view. You believe your way, others believe their way, and if what you all believe is correct, than "God" will decide who is what.

Why interfere with how other people interpret their Christian belief? Please stop this intolerance and "wise-acring"!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I wonder what drives so many millions of people into this intolerant view. You believe your way, others believe their way, and if what you all believe is correct, than "God" will decide who is what.

Why interfere with how other people interpret their Christian belief? Please stop this intolerance and "wise-acring"!

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As usual, John, rather than substantiating your view, you attack those who disagree with the "intolerant" label. That, to me, seems to be intolerant of those who hold views which disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

As usual, John, rather than substantiating your view, you attack those who disagree with the "intolerant" label. That, to me, seems to be intolerant of those who hold views which disagree with you.

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Tommy : and that from the man who asked me to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.
( See : Working on Sunday (2) LINK )

And I thought you always claimed to be a Christian yourself...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Tommy : and that from the man who asked me to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.
( See : Working on Sunday (2) LINK )

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John, that is only because you seem to think that you alone are the one person who knows and can dictate what Christian doctrine is (based solely upon your opinion) - as shown by the discussion in that same thread that you linked to. And, I might add, this is despite the fact that both Catholics and non-Catholics have tried to correct you, but you won't listen.

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And I thought you always claimed to be a Christian yourself...

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Indeed I am!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Indeed I am!

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Tommy : if you were a real Christian you would not ask me (a committed Atheist) to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.

( See : Working on Sunday (2) LINK )

:D :D :D :D :D :D


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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Tommy : if you were a real Christian you would not ask me (a committed Atheist) to perform some form of blasphemy by starting my own Christian church.

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Then stop claiming to be the only person who can declare who is and is not a Christian and what is and what is not Christian doctrine in contradiction to a Christian standards of doctrine.

Most folk who think that they alone are able to make such proclamations start their own churches, religions or cults, and if that is what you are doing, then I am suggesting that you might as well follow the logical course.

And I note that once again, you are trying to hijack two threads at once.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

You are as usual nitpicking here ... All Roman Catholics see themselves as Christians too.

A Christian is someone who accept "God" as the "Creator" , and "Jesus Christ" as "Saviour".
As to the rest : there are presently almost 3000 different Christian Church organizations and denominations, all following their own selection of the "one and only true belief".

If that is correct, almost 2999 Christian Church organizations and denominations must have it wrong. Nonsense of course !

I wonder what drives so many millions of people into this intolerant view. You believe your way, others believe their way, and if what you all believe is correct, than "God" will decide who is what.

Why interfere with how other people interpret their Christian belief? Please stop this intolerance and "wise-acring"!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

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Hello? Do I know you?. what do you mean nitpicking as usual? I was simply asking a question as to how close the catholic faith and christian faith were.. I wasn't being rude, unkind or intolerant. I wasn't IMPLYING anything... I thought it would make for a good discussion. Fr_Chuck and I were debating it a little and thought it would make for a good discussion on the Christian discussion board.

Gessh.. I hope you feel better

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Originally Posted by classyT

I personally believe there are big differences in the Catholic faith compared to protestant. Now i realize under different protestant denominations there are plenty of different doctrines but, in general about the fundementals of Christainity, I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism. I know Catholics who do not call themselves Christian... they prefer catholic. Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary, confess to a priest, believe in purgatory, have no assurance in salvation ( some don't even know what saved means) and the list goes on...i think it is different than Christianity. I understand that they believe that Jesus is GOD he died and rose again but for the most part..i see a big difference.

And by the way, PLEASE do not take offense by any of this..i am just asking. I'm not putting Catholicism down....Fr_Chuck disagrees with me and I just thought I'd asked for some opinions.

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I think Fr. Chuck answered some of the specific charges made here, so I won’t answer to those issues. Instead, with your permission, I’d like to pose a few of my own question.

Where do you think “Protestantism” came from? From where did some 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, with each insisting it has the one and only authoritative interpretation? How do they recon Christ’s words, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (Cf. John 17). How then do you or those 30,000, recon that hard saying, “I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.” (Cf. John 6). How that with your limited knowledge, not an insult – just a matter of human limitation, can say with more authority than Christ’s vicar what substance of faith threatens our morality, our souls?

The Catholic faith is a big deal, a big eternal deal, as it should be to you. To explain, I’ll give you the response Augustine once gave, "But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church." St. Augustin, AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANICHAEUS CALLED FUNDAMENTAL.(1)[CONTRA EPISTOLAM MANICHAEI QUAM VACANT FUNDAMENTI.] A.D. 397. Chp 5 How would you ansewer St Augustin's question? Are Scriptures really open to private interpretation?

We Catholics (who are Christian by the way) find that "This is the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Savior, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (Jn. 21:17), commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it (cf. Matt. 28:18, etc.), and which he raised up for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines. Since these are gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, they are forces impelling towards Catholic unity." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Genitum, 8)

And I do, constantly, pray to Mary, Joseph and all the saints for us.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Where do you think “Protestantism” came from? From where did some 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, with each insisting it has the one and only authoritative interpretation?

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I trust you know what the logic fallacy "strawman" argument is. That is what you argument is. First, and we have been through this before, you do not understand what sola scriptura is - you keep repeating that false accusations put forward by your denomination.

Second, you should study the growth of the various denominations sometime. Though some denominations came about because of doctrinal disagreements, probably most were for much different reasons and only a minority claim that they alone have the sole and only authoritative interpretation of the Bible (the biggest one that comes to mind which claims that their private interpretation is the sole authoritative one is your denomination)

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How do they recon Christ's words, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (Cf. John 17).

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Jesus was praying to the Father and asked God the Father to answer prayer, not us. Jesus also asked that we all (individual Christians) be one, not denominations. Jesus' prayer was answered when the father sent the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers. All believers are one in the Holy Spirit.

Man does not answer prayers to God. And Jesus did not pray to Mary or any of the saints (nor, for that matter did any godly person in scripture)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I trust you know what the logic fallacy "strawman" argument is. That is what you argument is. First, and we have been through this before, you do not understand what sola scriptura is - you keep repeating that false accusations put forward by your denomination.

Second, you should study the growth of the various denominations sometime. Though some denominations came about because of doctrinal disagreements, probably most were for much different reasons and only a minority claim that they alone have the sole and only authoritative interpretation of the Bible (the biggest one that comes to mind which claims that their private interpretation is the sole authoritative one is your denomination)



Jesus was praying to the Father and asked God the Father to answer prayer, not us. Jesus also asked that we all (individual Christians) be one, not denominations. Jesus' prayer was answered when the father sent the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers. All believers are one in the Holy Spirit.

Man does not answer prayers to God. And Jesus did not pray to Mary or any of the saints (nor, for that matter did any godly person in scripture)

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Yes I’ve noticed the exponential growth of the Protestant denominations. If Protestant’s have a moral authority, then why do their numbers continue to grow? Do they not claim they get their authority from the Holy Spirit? If so why is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic in His revelation; giving one denomination a set of moral virtues, and another denomination a different set of moral virtues?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes I’ve noticed the exponential growth of the Protestant denominations. If Protestant’s have a moral authority, then why do their numbers continue to grow? Do they not claim they get their authority from the Holy Spirit? If so why is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic in His revelation; giving one denomination a set of moral virtues, and another denomination a different set of moral virtues?

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First of all, you may not have noticed that the topic here is Catholicism.

Second, as you have been told before, I am not a protestant.

Third, your response indicates that you read nothing of my last post or chose not to address any of the points that I raised, so I see no reason to respond to yours further. I can only assume that you did not attempt to respond to the points that I raised because you have no rebuttal, so my points stand.

Ok maybe I am just really ignorant on this topic. But when I read Paul 's epistles I see nothing of catholicism. I don't really know why the Catholic church thinks they were the frist? Paul lays out who the Church is, and how they are to function. Am I to believe that the churches he wrote to were CATHOLIC? I go to a non demonminational church because I don't want a name of any sort given to me. I am a CHRISTIAN... period. And if you read where the first church was formed in Anitioch... they called themselves CHRISTIANS. ( not catholics) Paul had the same problem back then when he said some say they follow me.. others follow someone else. The apostle Paul is the apostle who was given the revelation of the church... NOT PETER... who the apostle Paul had to get after from time to time because he struggled with mixing law with grace. Now how "out there" am I on this?

I guess the Catholic Church believes it is the first since all of the early church leaders evolved into the formal Catholic Church, the local church leaders as they grew formed structure and this became the Catholic and Orthodox Churches we know today.

A sort of off comparison would be the early explorers who came to America were not US citizens but did they not form what becamse the US. While of course in the early time there was just the Church, the formal group that came from this was the Catholic Church. The term Catholic, which of course means universal came about to show that it included all christians everywhere at that time.

Fr_Chuck,

I am not good at Church History outside of the WORD. I only know what the Apostle Paul wrote. He wrote nothing of Priests ( other than our HIGH PRIEST.. Jesus). He worte nothing of what I believe Catholicism is today. If you read what he says about the assemblies and how they function... I just don't believe Catholics were the first church.. not the ones the Apostle Paul was writing to. Maybe after he died it evolved but
That wasn't what Paul was setting up. Am I wrong?

And having said that... what we have in Christendom today isn't what it is suppose to be... but I believe there are those that TRY to follow him as best as they can.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Ok maybe i am just really ignorant on this topic. But when I read Paul 's epistles I see nothing of Catholicism. I don't really know why the Catholic Church thinks they were the first? Paul lays out who the Church is, and how they are to function. Am I to believe that the churches he wrote to were CATHOLIC? I go to a non denominational church because I don't want a name of any sort given to me. I am a CHRISTIAN...period. And if you read where the first church was formed in Antioch...they called themselves CHRISTIANS. (not Catholics) Paul had the same problem back then when he said some say they follow me..others follow someone else. The apostle Paul is the apostle who was given the revelation of the church....NOT PETER...who the apostle Paul had to get after from time to time because he struggled with mixing law with grace. Now how "out there" am I on this?

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I believe it was Cardinal John Henry Newman who said something like, people don’t hate the Catholic Church so much as they hate what they “think” the Catholic Church is. You might be interested in reading how the Catholic Church views the role of Peter. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Pope

The following are a few Scriptural references showing Peter was the designated the head of the Church. And, logic dictates that if there is a head there must be a body. Catholics hold that part of Christ’s presents on earth was to commission his Church, establishing the new covenant.

Mt 16:18-19 – Simon is designated head of the Church, called Peter (the rock), given the keys to bind and loose.

Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13; Lk 9:32 – Scriptural evidence that the other Apostles viewed Peter at the “first.” He’s always mentioned first and foremost.

Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69 - Peter addresses the Apostles from a position of authority.

Jn 21:17 - It was Peter Christ commanded to "feed my sheep"

Jn 1:42 - Simon is referred to as Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).

Acts 2:14-40 – At the Pentecost: Peter was the first to stand, “14 But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you and with your ears receive my words...”

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter worked first healing, in the name of Christ he said “arise and walk”.

Acts 10:46-48 – It was Peter that it was revealed that gentiles were to be included in baptism.

Lk 22:31-32 - And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm [strengthen] thy brethren.

JoeT

Joe777,

Well we disagree. First.. I don't hate the catholic church.. I just don't understand all of it. 2nd... I disagree with Peter being the founder of the church... it is PAUL that was given the revelation of the Church PERIOD.. not peter.. and by the way.. who were"MY SHEEP" and "thy brethren"... the JEWISH PEOPLE.

If you read Paul's epistles you will see where he lays out who the Church is, and how they are to worship... he also gives instructions on the Lord's Table, discipline.. anything you want to know concerning how the church should run.. read HIS epistles. He had to get after peter for returning to the law... You get all your verses in the gospels and a few in ACTS when Peter was still clueless about the CHURCH and the Period of Grace that we live in right now. He was waiting for Jesus to come and set up the Kingdom, he had NO IDEA what was to come.

Where does the Apostle Paul fit into all of this catholic doctine... I don't know? what do you do with his epistles?

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Originally Posted by classyT

Joe777,
Well we disagree.

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Obviously.

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first.. I don't hate the Catholic Church

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I wasn’t implying that you hated the Catholic Church. I was pointing out that you obviously didn’t understand what “Catholic Church” meant.

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.. I just don't understand all of it. 2nd... I disagree with Peter being the founder of the church... it is PAUL that was given the revelation of the Church PERIOD.. not peter

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.. and by the way.. who were "MY SHEEP" and "thy brethren"... the JEWISH PEOPLE.

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“Feed my lambs;” “Feed my lambs;” “Feed my Sheep.” These words were given to Peter only and indicate his spiritual supremacy over the entire flock. The lambs signify all believers, not just the Jew.

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If you read Paul's epistles you will see where he lays out who the Church is, and how they are to worship... he also gives instructions on the Lord's Table, discipline.. anything you want to know concerning how the church should run.. read HIS epistles.

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Yes Paul wrote letters giving good instruction, but nowhere in the Scriptures is he drawn on as an “authority” as the Vicar of Christ as is Peter.

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He had to get after peter for returning to the law

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And it was Peter’s authoritative decision that settled the issue.

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Where does the Apostle Paul fit into all of this Catholic doctrine... I don't know? what do you do with his epistles?

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Paul’s 14 letters fit between Acts and James.


The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter. This was illustrated in a letter written by Pope Clement I (third in succession to Peter and had personally known Peter) to the Corinthians (circa) 95 AD claiming authority over Corinth. St. Irenaeus tells the second hand account from St. Polycarp where John was heard to say “the faithful wo are everywhere must agree with this Church (Rome) because of its more important principality.” During the Councils and Synods surrounding the early heresies the Popes decision settled the matter. This is illustrated in 431 AD. Where the Bishops responded to Pope Celestine’s decision, “He [Peter] lives even to this time, and always in his successor’s gives judgment.”

Only after 1520 some have asked why this reference is only found in one Gospel and not the others, Warren Carroll suggest the rather simple answer: “Why are Christ’s words to Peter found only in Matthew, and not in the other gospels? Because Mathew was there, with Peter and the Twelve, on the road to Caesarea Philippi in the summer of 29 A.D.: he heard the dialogue himself, in his own Aramaic language. Mark the Evangelist was not there; his information came from Peter, and we have very early testimony that out of humility Peter did not include Christ’s praise of him in his catechesis. John had the other gospels before him as he wrote, and rarely repeated what they had already reported.. . “ That the words don’t appear in Mark’s Gospel was influenced by Peter’s humility. It would be easy to suggest this as speculation however Victor of Antioch, the first commentator of Mark, mentions it as does Eusebius of Caesarea. Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 338. (see also footnote 139)


JoeT

Joe,
Well you need to understand the Gospels are not really the "gospel". They are Jewish.. not christian. Christianity doesn't come until later.. in Acts.

See here in lies my problem and why I think that Christianty is different than catholicism... I don't care what Pope Clement I said... I only care about what the WORD of GOD says. Popes are just men that need to be saved like me (well I am a woman but you know). I do not mean to sound disrespectful but other than the written Word of GOD.. known as the BIBLE 66 books... I have no other authority. The particular church that I attend preaches only from the Word. If it isn't in the Word than in my mind... God isn't trying to reveal it. Because everything he wants me to know.. he has in there. There is NO mention of the Catholic church or some of their ways.. i.e. the pope, priests, nuns, rosary, having Mary intereceed for us... the list goes on. That is why I started this thread. I think main stream Christianity and Catholicism are really different.

Yes, I understand where Paul's epistles are placed but I don't know where they fit in your church. I don't know where you get your orders? With no disrespect, it isn't the Bible.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Fr_Chuck,

I am not good at Church History outside of the WORD. I only know what the Apostle Paul wrote. He wrote nothing of Priests ( other than our HIGH PRIEST..Jesus). He worte nothing of what I believe Catholicism is today. If you read what he says about the assemblies and how they function....i just don't believe Catholics were the first church..not the ones the Apostle Paul was writing to. Maybe after he died it evolved but
that wasn't what Paul was setting up. Am I wrong?

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You are correct. A priest is a go between between man and God. Jesus did away with the priesthood because, as we who are believers are all priests, we no longer need a mediator between us and God.

There was no denomination not Catholic or anything else in the first century. There were efforts to align all churches into one organization but that did not come to fruitition until 325AD under Constantion. There were prior efforts to force control on all churches from Rome which failed.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Joe,
Well you need to understand the Gospels are not really the "gospel".

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Uhm…Ok, the Gospels are not the Gospels. They are what?

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They are Jewish.. not christian. Christianity doesn't come until later.. in Acts.

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And on what date did Christianity come into being, by what means, and who is responsible? Didn't Christ have a role in it?

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See here in lies my problem and why I think that Christianity is different than Catholicism... I don't care what Pope Clement I said... I only care about what the WORD of GOD says. Popes are just men that need to be saved like me (well I am a woman but you know).

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Pope Clement was the second Pope. He recognized Peter’s authority; he took on the responsibility of that authority as the 2nd Pope. So, we can conclude there was a hierarchy sometime before Peter died, so he could pass that authority on to his successor.

You indicated that there was no church, that it was individual congregations. How can this be if Peter was the First Pope and Clement was the second Pope?

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I do not mean to sound disrespectful but other than the written Word of GOD.. known as the BIBLE 66 books... I have no other authority.

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Where did those 66 books come from? Did they just fall out of the sky in the 14th century?

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The particular church that I attend preaches only from the Word. If it isn't in the Word than in my mind... God isn't trying to reveal it. Because everything he wants me to know.. he has in there.

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So you worship a book called the Bible?

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There is NO mention of the Catholic church or some of their ways.. i.e. the pope, priests, nuns, rosary, having Mary intercede for us... the list goes on. That is why I started this thread. I think main stream Christianity and Catholicism are really different.

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But if you don’t believe the Gospels aren’t really the Gospels how do we move the discussion forward? I joined the discussion to see how you define “Christianity”; how you define “Catholicism”; and what difference you’ve managed to find. So far you haven’t suggested anything of substance to suggest a difference. I’ll go a step further and suggest that Christianity is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church you call the Roman Catholic Church. History shows that all others are schismatic in nature.

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Yes, I understand where Paul's epistles are placed but I don't know where they fit in your church. I don't know where you get your orders? With no disrespect, it isn't the Bible.

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Paul’s epistles have the same weight as all the Scriptures. If it’s not the Bible what is it? Where did it come from?

JoeT

Peter and Paul knew each other, but Jesus did not choose
Paul as an Apostle (one of the Twelve) Paul persecuted the early Church until he met the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. After that he worked just as hard to build the Church up.
Jesus called Peter the Rock. Was he comparing him to God? (Psalm 18) no, just as in Joshua 24:25--28 Peter was to be a witness betrween the people and their God, having heard all the words Jesus had spoken on earth.
So when the churches later split off at the Reformation they were denying the primacy of Peter.

JOE...

LOL I enjoyed that.. OK I never said that the gospels weren't the gospels... I said they are not the GOSPEL. ( no S) In other words, you won't find out how to get saved reading them. The plan of salvation comes later...

Christ is why we call ourselves Christian so I guess I think he had the ONLY role in it. But he doesn't reveal the plan until later. The disciples were clueless as to what was happening... they didn't understand why he died and even after he rose again.. you can find that in the Gospels... you won't find the Gospel though..

I worship Jesus Christ . My point is that Catholicsim isn't found in those 66 books. No, I don't think they fell from the sky... I believe they were written by Man, inspired my God. AND NOT some pope.

If pauls epistles have the same weight.. could you point me to the verses about popes? NO? k... how about Priest in the Church.. no? Hmmmm? Ok.. hows about NUNs? NO? Golly gee wiz... ok how about this.. just point me to where the verse that says... PETER was the FIRST POPE! It ain't in those 66 books.

Yes, I understand where Paul's epistles are placed but I don't know where they fit in your church. I don't know where you get your orders? With no disrespect, it isn't the Bible.

Paul’s epistles have the same weight as all the Scriptures. If it’s not the Bible what is it? Where did it come from?


Ok... I think you got confused there... I meant you weren't getting your orders from the Bible. AND if you meant to rile me up saying that Chrisitanity is the ONE, HOLY,CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC church... you didn't. That just made me giggle. :) it is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Yes, I understand where Paul's epistles are placed but i don't know where they fit in your church. I don't know where you get your orders? With no disrespect, it isn't the Bible.

Paul’s epistles have the same weight as all the Scriptures. If it’s not the Bible what is it? Where did it come from?


Ok ...i think you got confused there...i meant you weren't getting your orders from the Bible. AND if you meant to rile me up saying that Chrisitanity is the ONE, HOLY,CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC church...you didn't. That just made me giggle. :) it is ridiculous.

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I wasn’t giggling. However, not having an appreciation, I can understand how it might seem funny.

Everything Catholics hold as truth is either Scriptural based or based on Apostolic teachings (Tradition). Furthermore, both Scripture and Tradition must be in harmony. And to relieve you of the false notion; the Pope doesn’t go though every line of Scripture and mandate how a Catholic is to understand it. Rather, there are only a few concepts (doctrine) that are held based on Scripture and Tradition.

The foundation and the founder of the Church is, of course, Jesus Christ. “Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, [the Roman Catholic Church] teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.” DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH, LUMEN GENTIUM

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church” (the teachings of the Church) has nearly 3,000 entries. (Now you can giggle!) But, most every tenet is scripturally based. The point I’m making here is that to explain the Catholic Church would be a monumental undertaking – which of course has already been done. In fact you would have to explain all of Christianity, because that’s what she is.


JoeT

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Peter and Paul knew each other, but Jesus did not choose
Paul as an Apostle (one of the Twelve)

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Actually, Jesus DID choose Jesus as one of the twelve.

Acts 9:2-5
3 And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" 5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
NKJV

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Jesus called Peter the Rock.

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Jesus called Peter a stone, not a Rock.

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So when the churches later split off at the Reformation they were denying the primacy of Peter.

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There never was any primacy of Peter. Such a concept is not found in scripture.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Everything Catholics hold as truth is either Scriptural based or based on Apostolic teachings (Tradition).

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Scripture says not to go beyond what is written.

Tj3,

I agree with you on everything you have stated. Scripture is clear about adding to it. And I don't understand how one could think Paul wasn't a chosen apostle... he wasn't one of the 12 but he was chosen. The poor guy had to defend his Apostleship way back then too.

I really don't see many similarities with mainstream Christianity and Catholics. To me, it is like night and day.

That is NOT to say, I do not believe that Catholics can't be true Christians.. anymore than I think everyone who claims to be one is. Did that make sense.. oh well, it is late. :)

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Originally Posted by classyT

I really don't see many similarities with mainstream Christianity and Catholics. To me, it is like night and day.

That is NOT to say, I do not believe that Catholics can't be true Christians..anymore than i think everyone who claims to be one is. Did that make sense..oh well, it is late. :)

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That does make sense and I agree with what you said.

Hey JoeT777,

Don't think I didn't notice that you never gave me Bible verses regarding the way the Catholic church operates. That's OK.. I already know it isn't in there. Hey, I am NOT putting the Catholic faith down.. I'm just saying the things that you guys do ain't in the BIBLE. That's all. :)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Hey JoeT777,

Don't think i didn't notice that you never gave me Bible verses regarding the way the Catholic church operates. Thats ok..i already know it isn't in there. Hey, I am NOT putting the Catholic faith down..i'm just saying the things that you guys do ain't in the BIBLE. Thats all. :)

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I was remiss in my reply. I should have listed "THE Catholic” verse. If you want to read "THE Catholic” verse I'd suggest that you start at Gen 1:1 and stop when you get to Rev. 22:21; there's no need to go beyond that.

JoeT