With all respect for Chuck's decision to close the "original" thread, there is a part of it that may be interesting for discussion here.

Since I was born - many decades ago - Sunday was a day of rest for all. People went to church and used the rest of the day to recover from a long week of hard work. Only continuous services like electricity generation, oil refinery, glass manufactury, etc. were 24 hour services, carried out 365 days a year.

After WWII the free Saturday was introduced. For 2 decades only the Saturday afternoon was free, but than in the late 60's the entire free Saturday become "normal". For others who kept working Saturdays (shops etc.) an alternative free day was introduced.

In the early 70's - due to influences from across the big pond - the situation changed again. Shops that normally closed at 18.00 hours had to remain open till late. Working on Sunday was introduced for certain activities. The "24 hour society" was introduced, based on the US concept of the same name and on pure US capitalist principles.

Now : for a nation that holds itself as Christian, how could such a nation drop so far from it's religious basis. How could capitalism shift aside it's Christian principles?

Your comments are invited...

:)

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yes, I do believe this can be a wonderful discussion, if we can discuss it, sadly the Original poster ( who ended up getting banned) did not want to really discuss anything merely misquote the bible and not really discuss. It was not closed because of its value, good thing to discuss, it was closed because of the abuse of the OP on the thread.

Well I guess growing up with in a railroad family Sunday was church day but if dad had to work he had to work, and myself going from the military to the justice dept to latter corrections and police work, there was no such thing as weekends and being off on Sunday. It has only been the last few recent years that this has been a reality for myself.

And I am not sure for myself I have not viewed America as a Christian nation for many years, looking back most of that same change started in the 60's and 70s. A lot of the blame is the actual freedom, freedom of religion the ability to start a new one at the drop of a hat, and the freedom from religion also, the right of people to not believe or even attack those that believe.

But capitalism or the love of money has always been an problem and one warned about in the early parts of the bible. America has chosen its god and it has not been the Christian God for a long time.

When they chose that cable TV, high speed internet, having that second car or third car, and so on is more important than being sure the family in the next block over has food for breakfest, we have lost our national faith.

In the 20's to 40's, people would take food over to families where someone was out of work ( but then that person would normally be looking for work also)

My neighbor is an example, he was walking to work, so I found a older bike, fixed it up and gave it to him to help him get to work,

I will actually help feed the hungry ( not give them money but take them in somewhere and feed them)

But the bible has never told us to not work on Sunday, ( Sunday is not the bibical Sabbath anyway, Saturday is) But even at that what it tells us is to keep it Holy.

There were rules set up over the years for the Hewbrew nation in the desert, but then we are not eating food given to us on the ground every morning either.

The temple priests set up all sorts of rules over the years for the people, most of course to benefit the temple priests.

As we saw Jesus and his followers breaking the law of the temple for working or walking and so on during the Sabbath it would appear that if we follow the example of Christ keeping his day Holy is not related to work but more related to the worship in our hearts.

The belief that we should not work on Sunday is a practice that evolved within some or most church communities at one time, but it is definitely not found in the Bible. Indeed in some churches, it was consider wrong to even enjoy ones self with a game of cards.

The mis-understanding comes from the commandment in scripture to keep the Sabbath holy, but since the Sabbath is not Sunday, and since Jesus fulfilled the law regarding the Sabbath in any case, those who hold to such a position do so without any Biblical basis.

I do agree that it is important for us to have a day off from work to "recharge our batteries" but whether this is Sunday or Monday or Wednesday is not something dictated by scripture.

Col 2:15-18
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
NKJV

Yes as Jesus said, the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Actually the founding fathers were not Christians.
The old blue laws where stores or bars were not permitted to open on Sundays have been gone for years, also the ghettos where people of a certain religious faith were expected to live.
If your company requires you to work on Sunday, that will be their problem for them to explain to God, it's not counted against you. But if for instance you had the choice of several jobs but chose that one, then it's your problem. Personally I enjoy telling the boss I'm going to Church on Sunday and he can make all the black marks in his book he wants to, because we are told to obey God rather than men. It's actually fun watching him squirm.

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

If your company requires you to work on Sunday, that will be their problem for them to explain to God, it's not counted against you. But if for instance you had the choice of several jobs but chose that one, then it's your problem. Personally I enjoy telling the boss I'm going to Church on Sunday and he can make all the black marks in his book he wants to, because we are told to obey God rather than men.

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Why? God never said that we are not to work on Sunday. Why would this be anyone's issue?

The closest that you can come to an argument on that would be the requirement not to forsake the fellowship of believers, but God does not send you to hell because, for example, you have a job where shift work is required and you may need to work an occasional Sunday and miss church.

Yes we agree on that.. What I was saying is if you have a choice of jobs and you choose the one where you need to miss church, that would be counted against you. Or you have a choice of positions, but you choose to stand at the counter selling lottery tickets when you could be in the back stocking shelves.
At my last job we worked every Sunday afternoon, but during the Superbowl our boss required us to work Sunday mornings instead so we would be done early. I just let him mark me as an unexcused absent every year

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Personally I enjoy telling the boss I'm going to Church on Sunday and he can make all the black marks in his book he wants to, because we are told to obey God rather than men. It's actually fun watching him squirm.

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I work in the health field. What would happen if the nurses and doctors in the nursing homes and/or hospitals told their bosses they were going to church on Sunday? Who would take care of the patients? Would it be up to the patients to then take care of themselves?

There are jobs that can be done in the community, such as nursing, that is serving God rather than going to church to worship God. The hospital I work in stops work for 5 minutes each morning (aside for the OR) for the Chaplain to say blessing for the day.

Yes in your case I would say your work is your sacrifice to God, much like the Israelites were told that the shepherds who supplied the sacrificial lambs did not have to attend the gatherings in the temple. And of course the priest himself works on Sundays!

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Yes in your case I would say your work is your sacrifice to God,

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I don't see bringing healthy babies into the world (I am a labor and delivery nurse) a sacrifice to God, but rather a service to God.

I was speaking in the sense that all were to come to the temple on the proscibed feasts, and they were not to show up there empty handed. They were to bring their sacrifice to God, and eat it there on the temple grounds. Much like we present ourselves at Church on Sunday to witness the Mass and partake of the sacraments.

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Originally Posted by J_9

I work in the health field. What would happen if ...

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That is no argument. I clearly excluded continuous services out of this.
Next to that : if you are a real fundamental Christian you could choose another job/function, and follow the Biblical line.
I was referring to (clothing) shops and other non-essential selling and entertainment activities.


Another issue-sidestepping argument is that Sunday is not the Sabbath.
For Christians the Sabbath is Sunday. For Jews Sabbath is the Friday-Saturday period.

And in certain European "Bible-belts" people indeed do not work on Sundays.
No work, no sport, no playing soccer, no movies, not bars, not even TV or Internet, etc.
That seems to me - although I disagree with their religious views - a more fundamental attitude in line with the Bible.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Another issue-sidestepping argument is that Sunday is not the Sabbath.
For Christians the Sabbath is Sunday. For Jews Sabbath is the Friday-Saturday period.

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you are not the one who dictates Christian doctrine. Though some Christians and some churches view Sunday as "sabbath", that is their own determination and their own tradition - it is not found anywhere in scripture, nor is it scriptural;. There is nothing wrong in practicing that as a personal choice, but for anyone who dictate it as a Christian doctrine is wrong. Indeed scripture speaks against doing so:

Col 2:16-18
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
NKJV

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That seems to me - although I disagree with their religious views - a more fundamental attitude in line with the Bible

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Perhaps you could quote where in scripture that it says that Sunday is the Sabbath and that we are not to work on Sunday.

There is no sin in working Sunday for many reasons already talked about, first Sunday is not the Sabbath, after that of course there is no law about not working on Sunday.

We actually sin in my opinion when we put our self under the law , and esp law that is not bibical, in the name of a god.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck/Tj3

Sunday is not the Sabbath

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Total nonsense. Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.
The Jewish religion was clear about what the Sabbath was.
Christians a long time ago did choose to change that day to Sunday.
It has little to do with the man-made concept of the word week, and the name of each of the 7 days.
It has to do with the allocation of a permanent fixed day for religious and spiritual purposes and actions.

It is nonsensical to suggest that the Sabbath is the Jewish Friday-Saturday period.
Almost all Christian Churches use the Sunday as the Sabbath, including your own little club!

===

The issue here is actually not which day is Sabbath, but the reality of a 24 hour economy and it's effect on the reserved day for religious introspection.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Cred, I remember when all stores were not open at night and were closed on Sundays! :)

With the advent of *shoping centers* in the mid 1950-s after WWII, so went the old-fashioned way of doing business with the owner operated stores in the villages. :)

America is all about business... don't let anyone tell you anything else 'cause they are wrong. :)

GROW GROW GROW was and is the name of the game.

And, Sunday has always been the sabbath in recent history here in the US

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Originally Posted by Choux

America is all about business....don't let anyone tell you anything else 'cause they are wrong.

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How true, Mary Sue !
And how interesting to see here certain Christians objecting to the reality , in their failing attempt to hide that their entire Christian set-up is controlled not by the demands of the Bible, but by the demands of the US capitalistic system !
The so called Christian nation is in fact not so Christian at all.

As I stated before : the real US deity is not "God", but the Dollar bill!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Total nonsense. Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.
The Jewish religion was clear about what the Sabbath was.

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Yes, the Jewish religion was clear. It was the 7th day (Saturday). Further, Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath:

Heb 4:1-6
4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

"So I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,"

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
NKJV

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Christians a long time ago did choose to change that day to Sunday.

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You will find no indication of any Sabbath designated by the Christians in scripture. As proof, I asked you for the scripture reference and you [provided none because there is none.

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It has little to do with the man-made concept of the word week, and the name of each of the 7 days. It has to do with the allocation of a permanent fixed day for religious and spiritual purposes and actions.

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And there is none in scripture for the church. I gave you the scripture reference in my last post.

Again, if you disagree, let's see your scripture reference to validate your claim.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You will find no indication of any Sabbath designated by the Christians in scripture.

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I never mentioned scriptures. I stated that for many years (actually many many hundreds of years and all over the world) for almost all Christian churches the Sunday counts as Sabbath.
The REALITY of Christianity is that Sunday is the Sabbath.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I never mentioned scriptures. I stated that for many years (actually many many hundreds of years and all over the world) for almost all Christian churches the Sunday counts as Sabbath.
The REALITY of Christianity is that Sunday is the Sabbath.

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That is what you fail to understand - Christianity is defined by the Bible, not by what some churches or some Christians choose to do. Further, I would suggest that it is a minority of churches that call Sunday the Sabbath. Many more call it "The Lord's Day" because it is the day that Christians have typically met to worship since the church started in the 1st century.

I take it from your comments that you agree that the Bible does not command us not to work on Sunday.

Tj3 : in that case I advice you to start your own church organization and become the only "true" existing Christian with the Sabbath on Friday-Saturday.

The rest of all "pseudo" Christians can than keep Sunday as their Sabbath...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Tj3 : in that case I advice you to start your own church organization and become the only "true" existing Christian with the Sabbath on Friday-Saturday.

The rest of all "pseudo" Christians can than keep Sunday as their Sabbath ....

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So far, John, you seem to to be the ONLY person on here claiming Sunday as a Sabbath or as a "do not work" day, and you are not a Christian. Further, so far you have not provided a shred of evidence for your belief that these are Christian doctrines.

BTW, in case you have not been reading - I don't keep the Sabbath - the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ.

Maybe you need to start your own church since you seem to think that you know more about Christianity than Christians (whether they be Catholic, Protestant or other non-Catholic), or indeed God does.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So far, John, you seem to to be the ONLY person on here claiming Sunday as a Sabbath

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Tommy : the topic is about working on Sundays. I did not bring the Sabbath into this discussion.
All I state is that SUNDAY is the day almost all Christians use as their Sabbath.

Let me make this more clear to you : Sunday : the day when almost all Christian churches have their religious services, the day after Saturday and before Monday.

And why you suggest me to start my own church - while you know I am an Atheist - is asking me to perform some form of blasphemy. No Tommy : I refuse to show that disrespect to Christianity !

I thought you claimed to be a Christian yourself...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Tommy : the topic is about working on Sundays. I did not bring the Sabbath into this discussion.
All I state is that SUNDAY is the day almost all Christians use as their Sabbath.

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You talk about the Sabbath in almost every message, claiming that Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath", something which has been refuted by Catholics and non-Catholics alike on here.

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Let me make this more clear to you : Sunday : the day when almost all Christian churches have their religious services, the day after Saturday and before Monday.

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Now we agree - and I said this myself in this thread - what Sunday is, is the day that most churches typically have worship services. That does not mean that we cannot work on Sunday, and that does not make it the Sabbath, though. That is where you appear to be making an unwarranted extrapolation.

And again, if you claim that this IS Christian doctrine, show us the validation for your claim.

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And why you suggest me to start my own church - while you know I am an Atheist - is asking me to perform some form of blasphemy. No Tommy : I refuse to show that disrespect to Christianity !

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Well, John, you see to keep trying to tell all the Christians on here what it is that we are to believe, with no validation other than your own opinion. So it seems that you think that you alone know what Christian beliefs are, and if that is the case then maybe you should start your own church.

On the other hand, you could stop and actually check out what Christian teachings really are.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You talk about the Sabbath in almost every message

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Tommy : I did not even bring up the point of the Sabbath. All I do is reject your personal interpretation of the Sabbath.

As to validation : I live here in an area called a "Bible belt".
In certain villages here people who drill a hole in their wall to hang a picture are told by fundamentals neighbours that they will burn in hell for that...

So don't tell me that Sunday is not more than the day on which Christians normally go to church. For many Christians Sunday is simply the Sabbath!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Tommy : I did not even bring up the point of the Sabbath. All I do is reject your personal interpretation of the Sabbath.

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It was in the OP, and you keep discussing yit based upon your opinion. If you do not want to discuss it, then stop.

You rejected not just my opinion, but the opinions of all Christians who have commented so far as well as what the Bible says. In other words, you have rejected the Christian doctrine in favour of your own and then declared ti to be the Christian position.

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As to validation : I live here in an area called a "Bible belt".
In certain villages here people who drill a hole in their wall to hang a picture are told by fundamentals neighbours that they will burn in hell for that...

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First of all, opinion validates nothing but that that is your opinion. Relating the personal opinions of other validates nothing other than the fact that you claimed it to be true. Neither validates that your claims are Christian doctrine.

Validation of Christian doctrines comes from the standard for Christian doctrine, the Bible, which specifically refutes your claim.

Yes the old thinking was, let's make sin illegal, which did not work out so well, like Prohibition or something. If you make the choice for people, they don't learn to think for themselves. God created us with our own minds and free will. Usually someone who clings to certain beliefs that they can't really explain, like working on Sunday or eating certain foods, that is the mark of a beginner. Not to denigrate that, but as St. Paul wrote, Galatians 4:9--11 why do you keep observing special days and months and seasons and years, have I toiled to no purpose concerning you?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It was in the OP, and you keep discussing yit based upon your opinion. If you do not want to discuss it, then stop.

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As usual another "untruth" by you, Tommy !
Nowhere in the OP the word "Sabbath" is mentioned. Neither did I bring that word up in the debate.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

.... God created us with our own minds and free will....

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That's what you BELIEVE...

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

As usual another "untruth" by you, Tommy !
Nowhere in the OP the word "Sabbath" is mentioned. Neither did I bring that word up in the debate.

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John, it is hardly worth discussing with you - all you want is an argument. I would go through every post where you mentioned the Sabbath, but just like your claims of a west point magnetic compass and your claims of getting an engineering degree in high school, it won't matter.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

John, it is hardly worth discussing with you - all you want is an argument.

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Tommy, it is hardly worth discussing with you - all you want is an argument.
As stated and all I stated : I did not bring up the word "Sabbath". I only reacted on it.

And please do not play the disappointed Christian here... you are the one who asked me to perform blasphemy on this board... Rather hypocrite in my views...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Tommy, it is hardly worth discussing with you - all you want is an argument.
As stated and all I stated : I did not bring up the word "Sabbath". I only reacted on it.

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John, you are the one who kept pushing the idea that Sunday is Sabbath, and just like the west pointing magnetic compass, and engineering degrees from high school, no matter what the facts are, you keep on pushing it.

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And please do not play the disappointed Christian here... you are the one who asked me to perform blasphemy on this board... Rather hypocrite in my views...

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Without false accusations and abuse, you would have a hard time finding anything to post.

Now to get back on topic. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible which says that we are not to work on Sunday.

If anyone wishes to disagree, post the verse.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Now to get back on topic. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible which says that we are not to work on Sunday.If anyone wishes to disagree, post the verse.

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You BELIEVE that the bible is the acclaimed word of God. The essence of Christianity is not the bible and it's content. It is belief in God and salvation by Jesus Christ.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

You BELIEVE that the bible is the acclaimed word of God. The essence of Christianity is not the bible and it's content. It is belief in God and salvation by Jesus Christ.

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Christianity is based upon the Bible. That is where learn of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't expect youi to BELIEVE that the Bible is the word of God because you BELIEVE that God does not exist.

Yes someone who is an unbeliever can hardly be telling believers what they believe, just what he thinks we think we believe. You are limited by your own argument in that regard.
And Christianity, which was after all begun by Christ, was based on and is considered the fulfillment of the Law. Almost every word Jesus spoke while ministering on earth, He was quoting the Law and the Prophets. So how can the printed word in the Bible not be the same as the essence of Christianity as you state?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Christianity is based upon the Bible. That is where learn of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't expect youi to BELIEVE that the Bible is the word of God because you BELIEVE that God does not exist.

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Oh Tommy : WRONG - wrong as usual!! No, I do not believe that God does not exist.
As a human being with a functional brain capable of observing and logical thinking I do see any OSE for "God's" existence.
And as Secular Humanist I do not need your claimed but OSE unsupported hypothetical "God".
I do not need a supernatural power with lot's of threats and claimed rewards to live my life to the fullest , and stay at the same time a socially moved and moral/ethical human being.

That you apparently need that hypothetical power tells more about you than about me.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Yes someone who is an unbeliever can hardly be telling believers what they believe

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Wrong again, W&B!! I do not tell anyone what he/she has to believe.
All I say is that when OSE fails to appear all you can do is BELIEVE.
Either you can OSE PROVE that "God" exists, or you BELIEVE that "God" exists.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Oh Tommy : WRONG - wrong as usual!! No, I do not believe that God does not exist.

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Really? That is what you have been saying for as many years as I have known you. Are you now conceding that God does exist?

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As a human being with a functional brain capable of observing and logical thinking I do see any OSE for "God's" existence.

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I see it also!

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And as Secular Humanist I do not need your claimed but OSE unsupported hypothetical "God".

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You have been shown OSE many times over the years by many people, but you refuse to acknowledge it. And in so doing prove that you BELIEVE that God does not exist - something that you cannot prove.

I'm with you, TJ3. The verse from Ecclesiastes comes to mind. A time for every purpose under heaven, a time to seek and a time to give up as lost.
Credo, something you said quite some time ago, you said that if you had to choose you would probably be a Buddhist. Have you checked into that thoroughly, I mean do they even take people who otherwise don't fit in to established belief systems? Sorts of square pegs? Because this sounds vaguely insulting to Buddhism. I'm not putting you on, I really want to know.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Really? That is what you have been saying for as many years as I have known you. Are you now conceding that God does exist?

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Tommy, Tommy : have you now resorted to lying also?

I have never stated that "God" does not exist.
Nor am I conceding that "God" exists.

It is most probable that "God" does not exist, but as Christians can not even prove that "God" exists, there is little chance to prove the far more difficult negative version of that claim.
And as far as I am concerned the onus to prove "God's" existence is on those who claim "God" exists. The need to prove is on the one that claims (in this case "God" exists).
Not on the one who - in view of all lacking evidence - ignores the claimed-to-exist entity.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You have been shown OSE many times over the years by many people, but you refuse to acknowledge it.

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Once again another lie. I have stated again and again : you have NEVER EVER provided any such OSE. Neither has anyone else.

Copy of previous responses on similar wild suggestions from your side :

Tommy777 : I have asked you repeatedly for reposting that list of scientific evidence you claim to have posted over 20 times before on other boards.

However all your reactions so far seem to suggest that either you can't or won't do that . To me that proves that any such scientific "evidence" never existed, and was never posted by you. Indeed you posted over and over a long list with religious claims but without any objective supported evidence for it's correctness. Reason for me to react as many times with the note that it did not contain any scientific support above the level of "A in G" or "ICR" non-scientific babble.

You KNOW that this will happen again if you post the same list once more, and that it is the real reason you refuse to publish it here.

Tom Smith : where in your Bible can I find the Mission Statement to Christians to "Spread the Word" - if needed by lying through your teeth and pure fraud ?

I called your bluff and asked you repeatedly now also here on AMHD to post "once again" your scientific evidence you claim you have posted over 20 times before on other boards.

I will keep doing that from now on till you either admit that your list was not based on scientific evidence, or till you repost that list actually. So expect this message many times from now , at least every time you post your empty claims!

BUT JUST PROVE ME WRONG TOMMY : POST HERE IN REPLY ONCE MORE YOUR LIST OF OSE PROOF OF "GOD'S" EXISTENCE.

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :rolleyes: :D

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