I know God Exists. So why do people like Cred claim people like me dont KNOW we just Believe.

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Originally Posted by arcura
... I KNOW God exists. He proved that to me. It is far more than just belief.

Originally Posted By Cred. Dear Fred : You say you know, but you can not prove that to be so. Therefore I'll accept that as your BELIEF, not as reality.

For you your belief may be or seem your reality. For me and many other billion people it is not reality. For it to become that reality you have to prove it to be so by showing OSE.

Have a nice day, Fred !

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I found this dialogue pretty interesting... Acura Said he Knows God exists and Cred. Insists that he does not know he just believes.

If I say I know God exists and someone claims I dont know, that just means that person BELIEVES I don't know unless they can provide OSE that I do not know God exists.

Its kind of like this.. I am wearing a red shirt right now. I know I am wearing a red shirt, now you can choose to believe or disbelieve me but the fact still remains that know I am wearing a red shirt. So if you choose to believe that I don't know I am wearing a red shirt, then that is just your BELIEF unless you can prove it to be true.
Same goes with God, I know without a doubt that God exists whether you BELIEVE I do or not. That's just a fact, I know God exists. ;)

A red shirt is different than something invisible.. jus' saying.

Some people need proof, like you believe what you see, you can't tell someone what to believe

You believe strongly in GodAlmighty, sass.

There is absolutely no independent proof(scriptures are not proof of anything to do with supernatural stuff) that GodAlmighty exists... there is visual proof that a red shirt exists.

Religion is called faith by everyone... not fact.

The problem here is the mis-use of the meaning of the verb "to know".

So let's start defining what is meant / not meant with "TO KNOW" in this respect.
Sassy : you and Fred mean with "to know" that it is a reality, not that it is just your personal perception. In this specific case the unsupported claim that "God" exists.
But the existence of "God" has NEVER been a reality, because it is based on BELIEF. So the use of the verb "to know" here is incorrect.

I will be the last one to state that you may not BELIEVE that "God" exists.
Fine with me : BELIEVE whatever you like, but expect opposition from me, when you declare what you BELIEVE - like the existence of "God" - a fact beyond debate and/or argument.

It is rather funny to see that people like Sassy - who has the habit of attacking real science and the "scientific method" (and even Scientific Theories) on a regular basis on extremely minor and/or often irrelevant arguments - get totally upset and start lamenting when someone addresses the TOTAL LACK OF EVEN ONE SINGLE IOTA OF OBJECTIVE SUPPORTIVE EVIDENCE for the many dogmatic religious claims, which Sassy herself (and Fred himself) BELIEVES to be "true", but insist at the same time that what they BELIEVE is reality by pronouncing what they BELIEVE as "knowing".

I have stated to Fred - long before Sassys opened this topic - that as far as I am concerned he may see that "knowing" as a personal reality, but in no-way it adds to what Fred BELIEVES any additional reality flavor (other than for Fred). The same goes for Sassy, and for anyone who BELIEVES something.

I have stated the following before : to use this "to know" trick is more or less an indication that whatever a person BELIEVES is not good enough anymore for him/her, and has therefore to be pronounced in a comparative higher degree, as if that BELIEF itself is inferior to "to know".

An interesting starting point for another discussion, I think!

Sassy (and Fred) can close this discussion quick and fast by stating that what they say "to know" is just their personal perception of what and how they BELIEVE, and does not mean that it is reality (other than for themselves). If they do, I see no reason to object to THAT meaning of the use of "to know".

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

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Who cares what he says. You know God is real, and if he says you only believe then say OK and walk away. We all have our own beliefs and opinions but if you know something or someone is real, then don't let anyone's words take you away from what you want to believe in. And what you know is what you know and he shouldn't stray you away from Him (aka- God) Hopefully that made sense.

Just like any experience so closely intertwined with powerful emotions, religious faith feels like fact to those who experience emotions moving within. This is "emotional knowing" specific to the individual.

It is emotion that makes *faith* so powerful... tempts people to *believe* in the unseen.

I believe and know from experience but he has a huge sense of humor

This is in fact a real image I lost just the plain image


http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture...d/Thelight.png

Easy on the goatse 70, you don't want to get banned. ;)

I think in this world we just need to respect and understand we all have different views and beliefs, mainly because we have all walked different paths. I have faith and it is personal to me and I wouldn't expect anyone to understand that. Just all be happy in your lives.

No matter how many people answer this post, we're all going to have different views. Isn't our culture make us who we are today? Isn't what we believe in make paths for us to follow? Were all going to have views no matter what

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

The problem here is the mis-use of the meaning of the verb "to know".

So let's start defining what is meant / not meant with "TO KNOW" in this respect.
Sassy : you and Fred mean with "to know" that it is a reality, not that it is just your personal perception. In this specific case the unsupported claim that "God" exists.
But the existence of "God" has NEVER been a reality, because it is based on BELIEF. So the use of the verb "to know" here is incorrect.

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Yes the existence of God has never been a reality to YOU. However it has been a reality to me and many other Christians. ;)

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I will be the last one to state that you may not BELIEVE that "God" exists.
Fine with me : BELIEVE whatever you like, but expect opposition from me, when you declare what you BELIEVE - like the existence of "God" - a fact beyond debate and/or argument.

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Just because you have not come to know God, does not mean I don't know Him.

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It is rather funny to see that people like Sassy - who has the habit of attacking real science and the "scientific method" (and even Scientific Theories) on a regular basis on extremely minor and/or often irrelevant arguments - get totally upset and start lamenting when someone addresses the TOTAL LACK OF EVEN ONE SINGLE IOTA OF OBJECTIVE SUPPORTIVE EVIDENCE for the many dogmatic religious claims, which Sassy herself (and Fred himself) BELIEVES to be "true", but insist at the same time that what they BELIEVE is reality by pronouncing what they BELIEVE as "knowing".

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Again your beliefs in a washed up mythical theory of evolution where a mouse shares a common ancestor with a palm tree is not science. It is a belief system in the guise of science.

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I have stated to Fred - long before Sassys opened this topic - that as far as I am concerned he may see that "knowing" as a personal reality, but in no-way it adds to what Fred BELIEVES any additional reality flavor (other than for Fred). The same goes for Sassy, and for anyone who BELIEVES something.

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Again Cred. These are just your BELIEFS, unless you can provide objective supported evidence that proves that I do not know God. ;)

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I have stated the following before : to use this "to know" trick is more or less an indication that whatever a person BELIEVES is not good enough anymore for him/her, and has therefore to be pronounced in a comparative higher degree, as if that BELIEF itself is inferior to "to know".

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You can argue until you are blue in the face that I do not know God but if you can not prove it, its all nothing but hot air subjective babble. :rolleyes:

All you skeptics need to do a little reading of fairly recent history. Find out what happened on Azusa Street in Los Angeles from 1904-1910.
I'll let you have the fun of looking it up. I only have dial-up and searching with that is a loooong process.

Actually Cred used to be a Christian in the past but has since fallen away and now he is a Humanist.

Cred old pal I actually have been kept awake nights thinking about how in the next world we will see each other not through a mirror, darkly, but face to face, but you will spend most of your time saying, "this isn't real. I must be dreaming"

Lord, I await the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come... but just don't let me and him be neighbors, then pleeeeeze

Admitting that you cannot scientifically prove that God exists does not take away from the level of belief you have in Him.

Stop taking it so personal.

To "Know God" is completely different than being able to say that you "know God exists".

I am not an atheist so don't give me any religious, dogmatic crap either.

It is just plain and simple fact.

It is that mentality that discredits religion in the first place. If you want to be heard, speak intelligently.

What sassy is saying is that they should have to disprove the existence of God to her, not the other way around.

How do you know the right god proved it to you?
By proving it to you didn't this god take away your free will to not worship him and if he can take away your free will why not prove it to all of us?
How do you know your not being fooled by some minor god?
Some god that wants to take you away from the truth?
If you say because you know, are you really so sure of yourself that you think you couldn't be fooled by a god even a minor one?
What about the other people who know there god exists and were told to do something completely different are they making it up?
Isn't it just as likely that there is no god and your believe is simply a by product of evolution and culture?

It's not valid, nor logical, to say God exists.. if not, then prove it.

You can't just assume everything is true until it is proven to NOT be true.

It is quite the opposite. You have to assume that nothing is true until it is proven. That is basic problem-solving.

If I said I know aliens exist, would you expect me to prove it, or would you take what I said as fact?

Of course not, because that would be ridiculous.

I believe in God, but I don't know without a doubt that he exists. I have no proof, therefore I cannot say with absolute certainty that He exists.

Sassy, you can "know" in your heart, but you can't claim that he does indeed exist to everyone. To you, yes, but others need evidence of that claim.

The bible isn't evidence, so you'll have to come up with something other than that to convince everyone of what you claim to know. Personal experiences aren't proof either, because they are only addressed to you.

If you had proof of Gods existence then it would be foolish for anyone to deny Him. No such evidence exists.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

All you skeptics need to do a little reading of fairly recent history. Find out what happened on Azusa Street in Los Angeles from 1904-1910.
I'll let you have the fun of looking it up. I only have dial-up and searching with that is a loooong process.

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Azusa Street Revival - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So a bunch of people got together and worship with a charismatic leader.

Read about this man
Jim Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He had many people join him and worship god with him rich, poor, black, white. Same story slighty different out come. They all claim they knew god.

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Originally Posted by michealb

How do you know the right god proved it to you?

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Michealb, I don't know where you coppied this little questioniar from, but you have been sound like a broken record so I am going to answere your questions in the hopes that you move on from this. :rolleyes:

What do you mean the right God? I did not claim that "i know the right God" i just said i know God. Since i know God i know there is a God out there. Whether he is the "right" or the "wrong" God, its really irrelevant to the fact that I know a god/God is there.

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By proving it to you didn't this god take away your free will to not worship him and if he can take away your free will why not prove it to all of us?

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I don't follow the logic of the question but basically knowing God does not mean I have to worship him. I know people who know God but have chosen to have nothing to do with Him. That is their free will.

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How do you know your not being fooled by some minor god?

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Again, I do not possess absolute knowledge therefore I don't know... However, like I said, whether it is God himself or "a minor god", it is irrelevant to the fact that I know god/God who ever or what ever He may be.

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Some god that wants to take you away from the truth?

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:confused: is this a question or a statement. Please clarify.

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If you say because you know, are you really so sure of yourself that you think you couldn't be fooled by a god even a minor one?

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You are now just repeating yourself.. :rolleyes:

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What about the other people who know there god exists and were told to do something completely different are they making it up?

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Maybe not, maybe their god really did tell them something different. I don't know how many gods there are out there however there is only one God that is a reality to me.

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Isn't it just as likely that there is no god and your believe is simply a by product of evolution and culture?

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Telling me "there is no God", is like telling me there is "no George Bush". As much as I am certain I KNOW George Bush exists and is the president of the United States, is a much as I am certain I know God exists. So when you tell me there is no God, you sound as ludicrous to me as someone who would tell me Goerge Bush does not Exist.

The point is that you can't know god and if you do it invalidates your entire religion. The whole point is that you are suppose to believe. You can believe very strongly but you can't know. The reason you can't know is because one of the reasons that your religion gives for god not giving evidence is because if he did give evidence god's glory is so great that people would be forced to worship him and he doesn't want that because it would invalidate people's free will.

Also if you don't know if you know the right god what's the point? You might as well worship me, at least then you can prove your god exists to other people.

Wait a tick...

If you KNOW God exists, how can you question whether He is the Real God... or the Only God... or a Minor God... or the Right God??

So you are saying that, while you KNOW that God exists, you don't really know which God it is or even if He is the only God?

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Originally Posted by michealb

Also if you don't know if you know the right god whats the point? You might as well worship me, at least then you can prove your god exists to other people.

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HAHAHAHAH

Now That's funny!

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

If I said I know aliens exist, would you expect me to prove it, or would you take what I said as fact?

Of course not, because that would be ridiculous.

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If someone says they know aliens exists you can not argue argue against that person unless you can prove that they don't exist.

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I believe in God, but I don't know without a doubt that he exists. I have no proof, therefore I cannot say with absolute certainty that He exists.

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Speak for yourself.

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Sassy, you can "know" in your heart, but you can't claim that he does indeed exist to everyone. To you, yes, but others need evidence of that claim.

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Yes that is precisely what I am saying. I know God exists but my inability to prove it to the world does not mean I don't know he exists.
I know on aug 18th at 10am I had 2 eggs, toast, bacon and pan cake. I have no way of proving that fact to the world, but the fact still remains.

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The bible isn't evidence, so you'll have to come up with something other than that to convince everyone of what you claim to know. Personal experiences aren't proof either, because they are only addressed to you.

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Lol.. don't get it twisted, I am not here to convince people or prove that God exists. All I am saying is I know God Exists and whether your believe me or not it does not change the reality that I know God. So unless you can prove that I don't know God.

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If you had proof of Gods existence then it would be foolish for anyone to deny Him. No such evidence exists.

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And you are absolutely right! However like I said I did not claim I can prove God exists. I just said I (personaly) KNOW God exists just like I KNOW I had 2 eggs with bacon on 18th despite my inabilty to prove it. ;)

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Originally Posted by michealb

Also if you don't know if you know the right god whats the point? You might as well worship me, at least then you can prove your god exists to other people.

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That is where Faith and belief comes in. I know God and that is a fact. I believe and have faith that the God I know is the "right" one. But like I said if it turns out he is NOT the "right" one, the fact still remains that I know HIM who ever he is. :D

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Originally Posted by DrJizzle

Wait a tick...

If you KNOW God exists, how can you question whether or not He is the Real God... or the Only God... or a Minor God... or the Right God????

So you are saying that, while you KNOW that God exists, you dont really know which God it is or even if He is the only God?

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Yes, that right. I have FAITH that he is the Right God but I can not claim to KNOW he is the right God and the only God, because for me to KNOW that with certainty I would have to be omniscience and possess absolute knowledge of everything in the Universe and beyond.

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Altenweg,I believe in God, but I don't know without a doubt that he exists. I have no proof, therefore I cannot say with absolute certainty that He exists.

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Sassy,Speak for yourself

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I was, or wasn't that evident when I said, I believe?

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Yes that is precisely what I am saying. I know God exists but my inability to prove it to the world does not mean I don't know he exists.
I know on aug 18th at 10am I had 2 eggs, toast, bacon and pan cake. I have no way of proving that fact to the world, but the fact still remains.

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It would be relatively simple to prove that you had eggs, toast, bacon and a pancake. Stomach contents can be analyzed, pictures of you eating with a time stamped camera, many other ways as well. Proving Gods existence is much harder, otherwise someone would have done it already. Nes pas?

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lol.. don't get it twisted, I am not here to convince people or prove that God exists. All I am saying is I know God Exists and whether your believe me or not it does not change the reality that I know God. So unless you can prove that I don't know God.

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Then why did you start this thread? What was the purpose? Were you just making a statement, or starting a debate?

You are correct, no one can prove that to you God doesn't exist, just like you can't prove that he does. So, why start this? If no absolute proof can be obtained by either side, then this is just a way to start an argument.

I've said my peace, I don't wish to discuss this further. If history repeats itself then this thread won't last long, it's just a request to fight, and I'm sure a fight will ensue.

Good luck.

Remember.. to "know God" and to "know God exists" are two entirely different things...

Don't get confused on this.

And again, basic problem solving says that we cannot assume that everything is true until it is proven untrue. If that were the case, then I could accuse of you murder and you would be guilty until you were able to prove yourself un-guilty.

That is not the type of world we want to live in, is it?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I was, or wasn't that evident when I said, I believe?



It would be relatively simple to prove that you had eggs, toast, bacon and a pancake. Stomach contents can be analyzed, pictures of you eating with a time stamped camera, many other ways as well. Proving Gods existence is much harder, otherwise someone would have done it already. Nes pas?

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Stomach content from 2months ago? Believe me you will not be able to tell what I ate 2months ago on the 18th at 10am by examining my stomach contents today. That is just wishful thinking.. lol.
The problem is I do not have a picture with a time stamp, taking pictures of myself eating break fast is something I don't normaly do, so how do I prove to you today that I ate 2eggs with bacon toast and a blueberry pancake on the 18th of Aug at 10am?

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Then why did you start this thread? What was the purpose? Were you just making a statement, or starting a debate?

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I was just addressing Cred's insistence that no one KNOWS God exists. LIke I said this I what he chooses to believe because I KNOW God exists and unless he can prove I don't, his claims are just hot air subjective beliefs.

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You are correct, no one can prove that to you God doesn't exist, just like you can't prove that he does. So, why start this? If no absolute proof can be obtained by either side, then this is just a way to start an argument.

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Again you are missing the point of this discussion. Like I said I am not saying I can prove God, ALL I am just saying I KNOW he exists. Whether you think that is true or not make no difference to the fact that I know God.

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I've said my peace, I don't wish to discuss this further. If history repeats itself then this thread won't last long, it's just a request to fight, and I'm sure a fight will ensue.

Good luck.

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It is not meant to be fight, I am just correcting some miss led people.

It's the same argument about dissecting frogs. Everybody used to dissect frogs until some intelligent young lady, a still quiet voice, said, why do we have to dissect frogs? It's gross, why don't we just look at slides or pictures in a textbook instead of killing more all the time, I don't want their blood on my hands. And now we don't kill frogs anymore.
At one time we believed the earth was flat and some people still do.
All I'm saying that in the Resurrection if Cred doesn't believe in it, it won't be real to him (sorry to use you as an example ol' buddy) so he will never know for sure. But not to detract from his purpose to make this world and this life a better place, which is quite an admirable goal

But you knowing god doesn't mean he exists. So it is still a belief that you know god. I can say I know the tooth fairy but without being able to prove it, it makes it a belief.

Actually Jesus wasn't about making this place better for example
In Matthew 10:34, Jesus says, "Don't imagine that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword!"

Yes the image from Malachi chap. Three about the coming of the lord shows it to be more like Armaggeddon at the End of Days

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The problem is I do not have a picture with a time stamp, taking pictures of myself eating break fast is something I don't normaly do, so how do I prove to you today that I ate 2eggs with bacon toast and a blueberry pancake on the 18th of Aug at 10am?

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I don't need proof of something that simple. I'm sure you eat, otherwise you wouldn't survive. Eating is something every live human does, therefore it's a fact.

God is not as easily proven to be fact, not everyone believes in God, because there is no actual proof.

Or in other words...

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.

But we know that entropy and chaos are the natural order of the universe. So how does that produce a sassy that can walk and talk and has definite ideas about what to fix for breakfast without there being someone in charge of it all? Who changed all those diapers back in the stone age when Geico Man lived in a cave? How did that first human that miraculously evolved find a second human of the opposite sex to reproduce with?

By the way, fig leaves are cool. You just pick them and stick them on, the sap is like superglue.

There is a missing element that can be easily explained with God, however you define Him.

When you dig deep enough into science, you hit a wall... that is where the tow worlds clash.

I know SOMETHING exists. Not because I have proof but because it HAS to.

Wildandblue, are you saying that God controls all our actions? God is in charge of everything we do?

If so, why does God let people murder, rape, cheat, steal?

Fig leaves, never tried one, sounds sticky. ;)