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  • Sep 25, 2008, 09:20 AM
    gromitt82
    GOD is amazing!
    Last night, I suddenly started to mull over how little we actually know about the notion of what the word GOD implies or should mean.

    We are no question influenced by the mythological references to gods and goddesses as persons with human feelings and emotions and, more than all, by the figure of Jesus Christ, which we may tend to visualize more like a man who died in the Cross to redeem us, than as GOD Himself.

    So I said to myself. Let us imagine the most absolute void and emptiness some 15 billion years ago, which is not yesterday! Then, all of a sudden, a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the Universe, and gradually, galaxies started to develop, materialize and come into being to reach the 500 billion where, previously, there was NOTHING. Each galaxy including, in turn, billions of stars system, planets, and so one and so forth…

    But, what about the size of this Universe, 15 billion years later?

    The nearest star to Earth (Proxima Centauri) is supposed to be at 4.24 light years away, or some 25 trillion miles!! But, our Earth is not in one end of this Universe, but more or less in the middle of what we know. In addition, we can see stars and galaxies everywhere. Nobody knows how far away the farthest star is. However, some scholars claim the known Universe stretches some 94 BILLION light years across.

    Do we really assume what this means?

    In the meantime, some 4,5 billion years ago our Earth and the other planets in our Solar System formed out of disk-shaped mass of dust and gas left over from the formation of our Sun. And little by little, the outer layer of our small and insignificant planet cooled to form a solid crust when water began accumulating in the atmosphere, to gradually become a planet that can sustain life!

    And life it has indeed sustained. From the primitive sea algae (perhaps 1 billion years old) to modern man. 230 million years ago we already have evidence of some species of dinosaurs. And between 1994 and 1995, some paleontologists, investigating the archeological site of Atapuerca (in central Spain) found over 80 bone fragments from five or six hominids dating to between 850.000 to 780.000 years ago.

    Now then, what do all these scientifically proven facts demonstrate?

    That GOD is really Amazing!

    For we have to imagine the incredible thought that there MUST BE a supernatural being so powerful as to create all this universe we now know and everything else we still DON’T KNOW. And trying to imagine GOD as creator of ALL this is really a most frightening thought, indeed.

    "The heavens declare the glory of GOD; and the firmament proclaims its builder’s craft. One day to the next conveys that message; one night to the next imparts that knowledge. There is no word or sound; no voice is heard. Yet, their report goes forth through all the earth, their message to the ends of the world. God has pitched there a tent for the sun” (Psalm 19:1-5).

    Perhaps we should start thinking of how futile our discussions are in front of the awe inspired by GOD, who has created everything that surround us, and who 15 BILLION years ago decided to let his divine blow explode into the so called Big Bang!!

    Thoughts on the above will be appreciated.
  • Sep 25, 2008, 02:08 PM
    michealb

    Couldn't we just simplify things by saying
    The universe is amazing.

    I mean every fact you had in your post was about the universe not god. Maybe there are other universes that aren't so great. I mean if want to say god created the universe fine but how do we know that he hasn't been working on it for a really long time. I'm sure with enough time I could create a universe too and maybe my universe would be better than this one wouldn't really make god amazing would it. I would say that would make him okay at best since I created a better universe.
  • Sep 25, 2008, 02:20 PM
    DrJ

    You get started on that universe, michealb... let me know how it goes. If you need more time, maybe you could live to be 1,000,000,000 years old and let's see how your decrepit body does attempting to finish and maintain that universe. Also, I don't know how long it will take you to figure out the whole "life from no life" thing, but once you do, let me know... always wondered about that. And after that, when you get around to giving free will to whatever life you do create, let me know how much more of an "amazing" job they do, as opposed to us.. you know, the "okay at best" crowd. Good luck on that. :D

    Pretty nice post, gromitt82. Yes, God is pretty amazing. So is the Universe. So are you and you know what? So am I! :D
  • Sep 25, 2008, 02:31 PM
    simoneaugie

    If you remove time (a human illusion) from the realization, if you assume that all those particles are part of God, that means that we are amazing. Not that we are "holier" or better than one another, it means that we always have been. We were created in the image of God, therefore we are exactly like God. So, amazing compared to something (as in good compared to evil,) or amazing period?

    I don't believe there is right and wrong, good and evil. We do not end in death. If this is true, what does matter? What are we doing here?
  • Sep 25, 2008, 02:34 PM
    michealb

    I have just as much proof that I did those things as to god did them. Isn't it likely that the universe has a natural answer just as every question has had. Since we began asking questions.
  • Sep 25, 2008, 02:45 PM
    DrJ

    Absolutely! Everything does have a natural answer. But I think that you do not agree that God is natural.

    Of course, I am sure our definitions of "God" are not quite in-line, as well.

    And YOU may have just as much proof that you created the universe as you do that God did... but I have much MORE proof that says you didn't than I do God.
  • Sep 25, 2008, 02:57 PM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb View Post
    I have just as much proof that I did those things as to god did them. Isn't it likely that the universe has a natural answer just as every question has had. Since we began asking questions.

    Can you prove that the universe just appeared from no where by accident? There is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more evidence for intelligent design than there is for the bogus claim that my brain, eyes, heart, immune system etc. just appeared from nothing by accident. It take more faith to believe that bolony.. lol
  • Sep 25, 2008, 03:11 PM
    michealb

    Your organs didn't appear by accident. They appeared because of selective pressures from the environment selected them over other less fit designs. If you take any random system and apply selective pressure you will get order that however doesn't mean god created that order.

    Saying the universe is an accident is like saying it rains by accident. There are forces at work that cause rain just as there are forces at work that cause a universe to form. You saying that just because we don't know something god did it is very limiting of you.
  • Sep 25, 2008, 05:06 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gromitt82 View Post
    Last night, I suddenly started to mull over how little we actually know about the notion of what the word GOD implies or should mean.

    Yes, how true ! How little they know, how much they assume !

    Many people even BELIEVE such an entity exists...

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    .

    .
  • Sep 25, 2008, 11:21 PM
    arcura
    Growmitt82,
    Yes I am a firm believer in Intelligent design of all that is seen and unseen,
    That is all the is in existence for God is existence itself having created everything but Himself.
    Without God I'm certain that there would be nothing.
    God, the infinite, eternal being designed original creation to become what we witness to be the universe as it is now.
    That I firmly believe.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Sep 26, 2008, 02:21 AM
    gromitt82
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb View Post
    Couldn't we just simplify things by saying
    The universe is amazing.

    I mean every fact you had in your post was about the universe not god. Maybe there are other universes that aren't so great. I mean if want to say god created the universe fine but how do we know that he hasn't been working on it for a really long time. I'm sure with enough time I could create a universe too and maybe my universe would be better than this one wouldn't really make god amazing would it. I would say that would make him okay at best since I created a better universe.

    With all due respect, to your remarks I am sorry to disagree with you. My post IS NOT about the universe, but about GOD, for GOD is the creator of the universe and everything therein.

    Some scholars DO say there are other parallel universes. However, if this is true it will just add to the wonders GOD created.

    Your assert GOD has been working on creating the world “for a really long time” reveals a rather unique ability to read figures. I think I said 15 BILLION years ago. This is rather a long time, as far as I’m concerned. Could you please let me know what “a long time” is for you?

    It is also an amazing proof of sense of humor to claim that you “with enough time you could create a universe too”.

    Mind you, I appreciate sense of humor as a basic medicine for a healthy life. Still, I think you have carried it a bit too far!

    How would you manage even to start it?

    I do not think that not even David Copperfield would dare to make the most out of such a thought!

    As I said at the beginning, I respect your opinion as much as I value your right to deliver it.

    However, I would encourage your supplying us with some really “serious” views on the subject!!
  • Sep 26, 2008, 03:12 AM
    gromitt82
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by simoneaugie View Post
    If you remove time (a human illusion) from the realization, if you assume that all those particles are part of God, that means that we are amazing. Not that we are "holier" or better than one another, it means that we always have been. We were created in the image of God, therefore we are exactly like God. So, amazing compared to something (as in good compared to evil,) or amazing period?

    I don't believe there is right and wrong, good and evil. We do not end in death. If this is true, what does matter? What are we doing here?

    Time may be a human illusion but, as Human Beings, we can hardly remove it. I am sorry to dissent from your theory “that all those particles are part of GOD”.

    If those particles you refer to are ALL the components of our universe they are not part of GOD; they simply are GOD’s wonderful toil, although I hate to use man’s qualifying adjectives to try to explain GOD’s Creation.

    We are indeed “amazing” insofar we are the “amazing” work of GOD.

    The Genesis indeed mentions that we were created in the image of GOD. This may be interpreted in several ways EXCEPT in that we are exactly like GOD. We could say that GOD is Spirit. Therefore, we could add that we are also spirits.

    Alternatively, we may argue that one must be in a relationship with GOD in order to possess the ‘image’ of GOD. Theologians like Karl Barth and Emil Brunner argue” that it is our ability to hold to relationships that make us like GOD. Unlike animals that cannot hold relationships in the same way we can, it is this characteristic that makes us ‘in GOD’s image’.”

    Pretending that we are “exactly” like GOD is, if you allow me to say, the acme of arrogance!

    There is right and there is wrong, good and evil! No need to believe it. They are simply here!

    Loving your mother is right. Killing her is wrong! Helping those who are in need is good; killing six million people in gas chambers is evil! Could you dispute that?

    Life does not end in death. TRUE!! And it matters, because depending upon our behavior down here, our continuing life may be of eternal glory and luminosity or of eternal gloom and obscurity.
  • Sep 26, 2008, 03:19 AM
    gromitt82
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb View Post
    I have just as much proof that I did those things as to god did them. Isn't it likely that the universe has a natural answer just as every question has had. Since we began asking questions.

    Sorry to say, you go on with your unusual "sense of humor".

    When you look up at the Firmament you can see the evidence of Creation! How can you prove YOU have done anything of sorts? It is obvious that the Universe was created and follows some natural/physical Laws. I do not think anybosy may dispute that, at this stage.
    The point, therefore, is not that. The point is: Who created the Laws the Universe follow? Who created the Laws that are to be found in the origin of Life on Earth?

    An the answer is just as simple: GOD did!!
  • Sep 26, 2008, 03:25 AM
    gromitt82
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb View Post
    Your organs didn't appear by accident. They appeared because of selective pressures from the enviroment selected them over other less fit designs. If you take any random system and apply selective pressure you will get order that however doesn't mean god created that order.

    Saying the universe is an accident is like saying it rains by accident. There are forces at work that cause rain just as there are forces at work that cause a universe to form. You saying that just because we don't know something god did it is very limiting of you.


    Right you are, in my opinion, for the first time. There are forces at work that causes a universe to form. You forgot, however, to mention where is the origin of these forces, or who impulsed them to act as they do? The asnwer, of course, is GOD did!!
  • Sep 26, 2008, 03:28 AM
    gromitt82
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis View Post
    Yes, how true ! How little they know, how much they assume !

    Many people even BELIEVE such an entity exists ....

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    .

    .

    Should we understand by that last remark that you DON'T?
  • Sep 26, 2008, 09:56 AM
    michealb

    Any level of sufficiantly advanced technology appears to be magic to those that don't have it.
    So just because you don't understand how it might be possible to create a universe doesn't mean it's impossible it just means you don't know how.
    You talk about god having no end and no beginning wouldn't it make sense that the non intelligent forces that by the by product of their existence created the universe could have always been. Especially since you know nothing about those forces.
  • Sep 26, 2008, 10:04 AM
    simoneaugie

    If killing someone reunites them with God, then death is not a negative. Believing that there is punishment and hell is a waste, to me. If death is not a negative, there is no right and wrong except as we decide to assign those qualities to actions and thoughts..

    An omnipotent creator can not create less than all there is. Our relationships can reflect either love or fear, the choice is ours. Arrogance lies in the assumption that one human is holier than another, that one opinion is "better" or "more wrong" than another.

    It is not arrogance that prompts us to search for meaning. But it is sad that we divide and conquer based on the thought that one way is better. Our souls are on the same path; our thoughts divide us.

    Neither one of us is "going to hell." We are supremely, endlessly forgivable. If you choose not to believe that, that's okay with me. May my beliefs be okay with you.
  • Sep 26, 2008, 10:21 AM
    michealb

    Quote:

    If killing someone reunites them with God, then death is not a negative.
    That's what scares me about religious people. You don't believe you can be wrong and death can be a good thing.

    It's this type of attitude that leads to people blowing themselves up because they believe they will be rewarded for it.
  • Sep 26, 2008, 10:28 AM
    arcura
    gromitt82,
    I agree with you.
    Everything that exists has a beginning.
    Who or what caused that beginning?
    It had to be something that has nor end or beginning to get the job done.
    The mathematical odds are that the universe and even ourselves could not have come into being by accident.
    Quantum mechanics shows that something very much supreme is at work, so many in that field are now saying.
    One of the best in that field has now become a priest in the Church of England.
    I read his book on that and why he decided to become a God fearing and loving priest.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Sep 26, 2008, 12:29 PM
    michealb

    Quote:

    Who or what caused that beginning?
    You don't know and I can't tell you. So why do you fill it in with god? Why not just answer honestly and say "I don't know, lets look for an answer." instead of god did it no further research needed. You do all of humanity a disservice when you spread false answers.

    Also mathematical odds are meaning less when you don't know how any of the varibles. You have no idea how many universes exist. You don't know how life forms. You know very little about the formations of galaxies, suns and planets. Until you know that information any discussion about odds are purely speculative.
  • Sep 26, 2008, 02:16 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gromitt82 View Post
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Yes, how true ! How little they know, how much they assume !
    Many people even BELIEVE such an entity exists ....

    Should we understand by that last remark that you DON'T?

    All I query is if there is any Objective Supported Evidence (OSE) for "God's" existence.
    That is not the same as that I do not believe in such a "God" entity.

    From your topic it is clear that you BELIEVE that "God" exists.
    And in contrast with that
    I do not see any Objective Supported Evidence (OSE) for "God's" existence.

    :)

    .
  • Sep 26, 2008, 02:31 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Everything that exists has a beginning.

    Dear Fred : please answer the following questions :

    Pnt 1 : If you tell me that "God" not always existed, than Who or What caused the beginning of "God", and Why ?

    Pnt 2 : If you tell me that "God" always existed, than your argument itself is false and invalid, as not "everything that exists" had a beginning.
    (Or you just proved that "God" does not exist, as he always existed... ) :rolleyes:

    As an after-thought one more point additional to any of your answers : If "God" always existed, why ONLY "God"? Why did not many other things always existed?

    :)

    GOD is not amazing... The lacking and invalid logic here is amazing!

    :)

    .
  • Sep 26, 2008, 02:41 PM
    DrJ
    I are amazing. And I gots me plenty of OSE ta prove it.

    The problem with the "who/what came first" argument is that the mind is trapped in the 4th dimension: time. We cannot perceive anything beyond of that and therefore, efforts are futile.
  • Sep 26, 2008, 02:53 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DrJizzle View Post
    I are amazing. And I gots me plenty of OSE ta prove it.

    Your grammar, spelling, attitude, and lacking support of your claim surely are amazing...

    Please show some respect for the religious ideas of others...

    :D

    .
  • Sep 26, 2008, 03:07 PM
    DrJ

    Is OSE a Religious idea?

    :D
  • Sep 26, 2008, 03:13 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DrJizzle View Post
    Is OSE a Religious idea?

    O = Objective
    S = Supported
    E = Evidence

    OSE is not a religious idea. OSE reflects factual proof, something completely missing from religion.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DrJizzle
    I are amazing. And I gots me plenty of OSE ta prove it.

    I still see not any proof for that claim or taking back of that claim...

    :rolleyes:

    .
  • Sep 26, 2008, 07:20 PM
    arcura
    michealb,
    I KNOW the answer. God created all that is seen and unseen.
    I can't prove it scientifically but personally I know it.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Sep 26, 2008, 08:13 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    I KNOW the answer. God created all that is seen and unseen.
    I can't prove it scientifically but personally I know it.

    You call that "know" but it is no more than what you BELIEVE to be.
    Of course you may EXPERIENCE that as knowing...

    Have a nice day too, Fred !

    John

    :)

    .
  • Sep 26, 2008, 08:18 PM
    inthebox

    Cred:

    What came before the big bang?

    What caused it ?

    Do you have OSE?
  • Sep 26, 2008, 08:29 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    what came before the big bang? What caused it ? Do you have OSE?

    Time started with the Big Bang. Time is a dimension. So there is no "before" the Big Bang.

    We can not know what was there "before" the Big Bang, as for everything in this universe there is no "before" the Big Bang. How can one know anything of what to all it this universe never existed ?

    Of course YOU may BELIEVE that...

    Just as in Captain Kirk, Superman, God, and many others...

    :)

    .
  • Sep 26, 2008, 08:38 PM
    arcura
    Cred,
    CORRECTION...
    I KNOW God exists.
    He proved that to me.
    It is far more than just belief.
    Fred
  • Sep 26, 2008, 09:36 PM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis View Post
    Time started with the Big Bang. Time is a dimension. So there is no "before" the Big Bang.

    We can not know what was there "before" the Big Bang, as for everything in this universe there is no "before" the Big Bang. How can one know anything of what to all it this universe never existed ?

    .


    Where is your OSE for what you state - or is that something that you believe :rolleyes:;)


    So there was " nothing "? Before the big bang?
    If so, how did "nothing" cause the big bang?
    Where is your OSE?
  • Sep 26, 2008, 09:49 PM
    arcura
    inthebox,
    Excellent question.
    I look forward to the answer if any.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Sep 27, 2008, 04:02 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    ... I KNOW God exists. He proved that to me. It is far more than just belief.

    Dear Fred : You say you know, but you can not prove that to be so. Therefore I'll accept that as your BELIEF, not as reality.

    For you your belief may be or seem your reality. For me and many other billion people it is not reality. For it to become that reality you have to prove it to be so by showing OSE.

    Have a nice day, Fred !

    :)

    .
  • Sep 27, 2008, 04:15 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Time started with the Big Bang. Time is a dimension. So there is no "before" the Big Bang. We can not know what was there "before" the Big Bang, as for everything in this universe there is no "before" the Big Bang. How can one know anything of what to all in this universe never existed ?

    Where is your OSE for what you state - or is that something that you believe

    Why do you want from me OSE for time being a dimension? Do you agree or diasgree with that?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    So there was " nothing "? before the big bang?

    I did not state that : I stated that "there is no "before" the Big Bang".
    Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    If so, how did "nothing" cause the big bang?

    I'll answer that as soon as YOU can OSE prove to me that God always existed.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Where is your OSE?

    Indeed : Where is YOUR OSE??

    :)

    .
  • Sep 27, 2008, 04:58 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura
    ...I look forward to the answer if any....

    Fred, please do not be silly : you know very well I will answer such questions.

    :)

    .
  • Sep 27, 2008, 08:03 AM
    Galveston1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis View Post
    Fred, please do not be silly : you know very well I will answer such questions.

    :)

    .

    Of course you don't. You can't.
    :D
  • Sep 27, 2008, 08:40 AM
    michealb

    As I have said before just because you don't know the answer doesn't mean god did it. It just means you don't know. I don't see anything wrong with not knowing something however I do think it is wrong to claim something to be true without some basis for that statement.
  • Sep 27, 2008, 12:21 PM
    arcura
    Cred,
    Why do you not believe what I said.
    I said I KNOW God exists.
    He proved that to me.
    Knowing is a lot more than believing.
    There is no way you can prove that I do not Know God exists.
    I do not need to prove that I know.
    You either accept my word on that or you don't, but please do not try to tell me that I just believe something that I know. That IS unacceptable for it is untrue.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Sep 27, 2008, 07:06 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura
    ... Knowing is a lot more than believing ...

    Precisely ! I agree. Believing is accepting something you have no OSE for.
    Knowing (as in factual) is accepting something that is OSE based.

    You say that you KNOW that God exixts.
    But you do not KNOW that, dear Fred. You BELIEVE that.
    And that is the reason why you keep repeating that you know, but keep failing to provide the OSE to prove that what you claim to know is anything more than what you actually BELIEVE!!

    From me you may BELIEVE anything you want, and assume that personally as a fact.
    But it only becomes a fact as soon as you provide OSE for that.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura
    There is no way you can prove that I do not Know God exists.

    Fred, from me you do not have to prove anything.
    But till the moment that you prove your CLAIM of what you say to know is more than a wild claim which you BELIEVE to be "true", it has no value as reality at all (other than for you only).

    It is not I who needs to prove anything, dear Fred.
    I do not claim anything. I ask you to support that what you claim to be factual with OSE.
    And as long as you do not do that, all you claim to "know" is what you BELIEVE.

    :)

    .

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