From the New Jerusalem Bible.
Luke 6: 39. He also told them a parable, "Can one blind person guide another? Surely both will fall into a pit?
40. Disciple is not superior to teacher; but fully trained disciple will be like teacher.
41. Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own?
42. How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take out that splinter in your eye,' when you cannot see the great log in your own? Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take out the splinter in your brother's eye.
43. `There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit.
44. Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles.
45. Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart.
How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?
How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?
Are there any who post here doing those things?
We all are sinners to one extent or the other so as Jesus says we all have some logs or foreign objects in our eye that needs to be taken care of before we charge others about the specks or foreign objects in their eyes.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Agree, we are alll sinners in need of God's grace; therefore, we should be graceful to other sinners.

We should be aware of the example we provide.

Everyone thinks his religion is correct. Obviously, that cannot be true. We discuss, we quote, we sometimes argue. The discussion and quoting can be a good thing if it causes us to re-examine our faith. It will either strengthen it or cause us to change it. Hate does not have to enter into it.

So, Fred,

Am I wrong? Does the Catholic Church teach that you will go to Hell if you do not take communion in the Catholic Church, or are not baptised in the Catholic Church?

Excellent question. However, I suspect that any answer given will be filtered through dogma and subjected to mental gymnastics by most.

Perhaps a better question is, what is love? If all viewpoints were filtered through the answer to that, there would be no argument. In time, there would be no need to ask the question.

Hello dear Fred !

How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

Are there any who post here doing those things?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

Peace and kindness to you, Fred

John

:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by simoneaugie

Excellent question. However, I suspect that any answer given will be filtered through dogma and subjected to mental gymnastics by most.
Perhaps a better question is, what is love? If all viewpoints were filtered through the answer to that, there would be no argument. In time, there would be no need to ask the question.

---

I fail to agree with that.
Too many here do not show any love nor any tolerance towards other views.
Even if one would filter posts here with "love" as focal point, there still would be a lot of intolerance, a lot of hatred, a lot of totally misplaced "christian-based" threatening.

There will always be the need to ask these questions to bring the real Christian message home...

:(

Why don't these Christians who annoy so many, of us practice love as Jesus taught through word and example? Why are they blind to their own hatred?

Sometimes they query about what love really is. That is a step in the "right" direction.

Matthew 7:1-2, 7:12-14. 5:21-26, 5:43-48 we need to love our brothers in spite of who they and we are. We don't get to pick whom we like, it's not "do unto others only if they seem to deserve it" When we let it go we let God judge them instead of us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Matthew 7:1-2, 7:12-14. 5:21-26, 5:43-48 ....

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You can quote as many bible books/lines as you want.
But (Christian) integitry is about human beings and their human weaknesses.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I fail to agree with that.
Too many here do not show any love nor any tolerance towards other views.
Even if one would filter posts here with "love" as focal point, there still would be a lot of intolerance, a lot of hatred, a lot of totally misplaced "christian-based" threatening.

There will always be the need to ask these questions to bring the real Christian message home .....

:(

---

What is love?
1 Corinthians 13 = classic.:)


If I disagree with your point of view, does that make me intolerant?

Do you equate tolerance with love?

Is intolerance the same as hatred?


If my child decides to use cocaine, I disagree with this, I am "intolerant" of this.
Do I hate my child because I am intolerant of their drug use? :eek:

Do I hate you because you do not believe in God? Quite the contrary, I love you because I BELIEVE Jesus died for you/ for all.

But what you believe is your choice. I can't force you or threaten you.

inthebox, the fact is that many Christians do force and threaten, that's how I grew up. I was considered less then human in some eyes because I am not Catholic. I resent that, detest that, and will no tolerate it from anyone.

I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian, I'm not anything, I cannot be caterogized, and that is the way I've chosen. So, why, after I tell Christians of my belief, do they feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking? I know it's your mission to recruit, but I already believe in God, why do I have to be a Christian in order to do that? I don't, and that makes a lot of Christians uneasy.

Many Christians tell me that my faith isn't good enough, that I don't truly believe. Let me assure you, I do. God is a part of my life, no less then he is a part of a Christians life. The only difference is that I do not follow the bible, nor do I attend church. You know, you can pray just as well at home, and God doesn't need a man made church, oak pews, stained glass windows, golden idols in order to hear me.

I just wish that people would stop trying to push their religion on others. If someone asks, then by all means, feel free, but if they don't, then constantly quoting the bible, saying that Christianity is the only way, well, that's harassment.

That has been my experience with many (not all) of the Christians I've encountered. There are of course exceptions, and those are the people that I can discuss religion with, no matter what differing views we have.

Acceptance is the key. I've spent my whole life looking for the acceptance of my beliefs. I'll let you know when and if I find it.

Peace. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

You can quote as many bible books/lines as you want.
But (Christian) integitry is about human beings and their human weaknesses.

---

And their strengths. And how they overcome their weaknesses.

Galviston1,
No the Catholic Church does not teach that a person goes to hell by not partaking of the Eucharist.
But in the bible Jesus said about those who eat his body and drink His blood that He will raise them up on the last day.
No, the Catholic Church does not teach that a person will go yo hell if not baptized in the Catholic Church.
But the bible does say that a person must be properly baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Most denominations recognize valid baptisms in other denominations.For the record I have never said that a person is going to hell.
The reason is that I believe that ONLY God knows who is going where.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Arcura, you definitely fall into the category of one of the Christians I respect. You have never talked down to me, nor have you said that my belief is less because I'm not Christian. I thank you for that. :)

Having said that, I realize that it's hard to accept that other Christians are not as good as you. It's hard for someone to believe that some people can use their beliefs to be cruel to others.

I was baptized in the Lutheran church. My father was Catholic, my mother Lutheran. When they decided to get married, my father wanted to marry in the Catholic church. My parents went to the Catholic priest and requested that he marry them. The priest said that he couldn't unless my mother became Catholic. My mother refused, didn't see why she had to change her religion. The priest said no way, either change or get married elsewhere. My mom and dad decided to get married in the Lutheran church. The Catholic priest told them that unless they got married in the Catholic church, they weren't really married and all their children would be bastards.

I was confirmed in the Lutheran church, married in the Lutheran church, my son was baptized in the Lutheran church, both my parents funerals where in the Lutheran church. I do not consider myself Lutheran though, and I haven't for a long time.

I can't say it enough, I believe we are all Gods children, regardless of what we believe. If we are his children, then he will not turn his back on any of us, not matter what.

So, one day, we will all meet in heaven (if heaven exists), that is my belief. :)

Peace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

inthebox, the fact is that many Christians do force and threaten, that's how I grew up. I was considered less then human in some eyes because I am not Catholic. I resent that, detest that, and will no tolerate it from anyone.

Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.

I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian, I'm not anything, I cannot be caterogized, and that is the way I've chosen. So, why, after I tell Christians of my belief, do they feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking? I know it's your mission to recruit, but I already believe in God, why do I have to be a Christian in order to do that? I don't, and that makes a lot of Christians uneasy.

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).

Many Christians tell me that my faith isn't good enough, that I don't truly believe. Let me assure you, I do. God is a part of my life, no less then he is a part of a Christians life. The only difference is that I do not follow the bible, nor do I attend church. You know, you can pray just as well at home, and God doesn't need a man made church, oak pews, stained glass windows, golden idols in order to hear me.

"Belief" and salvation are two very different ant things. I think what the "Christians" you have spoken with have failed to do is explain that clearly. Also you are correct, legalism (ie: You must be baptized, You must go into our church and sing our songs ect..) is not true Christianity. Again, one way to salvation. Saved by grace and faith. The belief Christ died for our sins.

I just wish that people would stop trying to push their religion on others. If someone asks, then by all means, feel free, but if they don't, then constantly quoting the bible, saying that Christianity is the only way, well, that's harassment.

I hope you understand that pushing religion and concern for someone's salvation are two very different things. Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation. It is very clear in the bible that the only way to have salvation is to believe Christ died for your sins. As for harassment, I would gladly have you mad at me if that meant you could possibly be saved by my actions.

That has been my experience with many (not all) of the Christians I've encountered. There are of course exceptions, and those are the people that I can discuss religion with, no matter what differing views we have.

If a christian can't discuss someones religious views then they are to proud (a sin in itself). You should always be able to agree to disagree.

---

Just some thoughts..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Galviston1,
No the Catholic Church does not teach that a person goes to hell by not partaking of the Eucharist.
But in the bible Jesus said about those who eat his body and drink His blood that He will raise them up on the last day.

---

Actually, it doesn't - this claim represents another gospel, another way to salvation. All you need to do, according to this, is to partake of a ritual once and you are saved.

Quote:

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For the record I have never said that a person is going to hell.

---

You have said that about me, Fred!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Your questions (post #10) with my answers attached in BLUE.

---

If I disagree with your point of view, does that make me intolerant? No.

Do you equate tolerance with love? No.

Is intolerance the same as hatred? No.

Do I hate you because you do not believe in God? Quite the contrary, I love you because I BELIEVE Jesus died for you/ for all.
The point is that you KNOW that I am not interested in your religion as worldview.
I accept your worldview (I do not try to convert you to Secular Humanism) : I am tolerant.
You do NOT accept my worldview (you keep trying to convert me to Christianity) : you are intolerant

:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smoked

just some thoughts..

---

Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.
Catholicism a cult? It all depends on your parameters !
If parameters are properly "adapted", even Christianity becomes a cult !

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).
Altenweg is NOT a Christian but a DEIST !!! "Salvation" is not her concern nor her goal.

Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation.
That may be so, but once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.
You do not see Altenweg pushing anyone for conversion to Deism.
You do not see any Secular Humanist here pushing anyone for conversion to Secular Humanism.

Just some thoughts too !

:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And their strengths. And how they overcome their weaknesses.

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Agreed !

:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.

---

I went back over a number of Christianity threads and fail to see where anyone is being coerced to become a Christian. Or is that happening via PMs? Or are you talking about real life?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I went back over a number of Christianity threads and fail to see where anyone is being coerced to become a Christian. Or is that happening via PMs? Or are you talking about real life?

---

You are relatively "new" her on "Religious discussions" but it is going on in almost all posts.
And not only experienced by myself.
I respect everyone religious belief, but I am NOT interested in Christianity, nor in Christian "salvation".

;) (happy now without blinking ?)

.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

You are relatively "new" her on "Religious discussions" but it is going on in almost all posts.
And not only experienced by myself.
I respect everyone religious belief, but I am NOT interested in Christianity, nor in Christian "salvation".

;) (happy now without blinking ?)

.

---

I'm not new here; I rarely post on Christianity because doing so is so unsatisfying most of the time.

I didn't notice where you or anyone else was being coerced. Yes, there were strong and vehement arguments in favor of Christianity, but no one was being threatened with hellfire (except in the case of a few moral enemies that have done so on other sites -- I get around, John.) I'll have to check back re Alty's experience.

(By stopping eye-rolling, you've just saved me a long-distance call to my mom. Thanks.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'm not new here; I rarely post on Christianity because doing so is so unsatisfying most of the time.

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That is why I stated "relatively"...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

That is why I stated "relatively" ....

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We might be related, you say?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

We might be related, you say?

---

I'm just a simple European male who speaks his English (as his third language) a lot better than most of you gringo's do. But yes : I make sometimes spelling mistakes. Don't you?

:D

PS : I'm going now in horizontal mode for some hours to reload the batteries...

:D

.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I'm just a simple European male who speaks his English (as his third language) a lot better than most of you gringo's do. But yes : I make sometimes spelling mistakes. Don't you?

:D

PS : I'm going now in horizontal mode for some hours to reload the batteries ....

:D

.

---

Sleep well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.
Catholicism a cult? It all depends on your parameters !
If parameters are properly "adapted", even Christianity becomes a cult !

anything that involves legalism and departs from the teaching of the bible in my opinion would be a cult. Note I said my opinion, so yes it must depend on my parameters.

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).
Altenweg is NOT a Christian but a DEIST !!! "Salvation" is not her concern nor her goal.

You see my friend, when someone answers a question you need to stop taking it personal. When Alt posted her comments it was then open for someone to post a "Conversational Response". Of coarse if I post something, it will be from my christian point of view. You continue to post that you are superior in intellect but seem to lack the ability to differentiate conversation from coercion

Most of your post imply that an opinion is more valid if they do not include a christian point of view.

Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation.
That may be so, but once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.

When you hear the mere mention of Christianity it drives you crazy doesn't it? Why do they always talk about Christ and salvation? OMG they are trying to make me a Christian!! Why does someone who knows a lot about a topic always direct a conversation towards that topic. Christians can relate to other Christians from all walks of life on this common ground. We can also weed out the Non-Christians the same way. Ultimately I want to surround myself with like minded people. It's a double edged sword.

Secondly as Christians we are called to spread the gospel. Spread, not convert..I can't convert you only God can. Only if you (not "you" anyone) are called. Not everyone is called. Actually very few are, even the ones who "think" they are not always saved.

Get over the self centered feeling that its all about you...

You do not see Altenweg pushing anyone for conversion to Deism.
You do not see any Secular Humanist here pushing anyone for conversion to Secular Humanism.
really? I have seen ton's of secular humanism agendas in past post..so..hmm

Just some thoughts too !

:rolleyes:

---

I would roll my eyes, but I am not as trite..

Quote:

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Secondly as Christians we are called to spread the gospel. Spread, not convert..

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And you do so even when someone says they don't want to hear it. That's the problem I have.

In every thread about religion there are Christians telling you to "read the bible", "go to church", believe, believe, believe. When I tell them that I do believe, they question my beliefs. Why, because I'm not a Christian, therefore, in there eyes, I don't believe, or not enough for them anyway.

Quote:

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Of coarse if I post something, it will be from my christian point of view.

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And when I post something it's from my Deist point of view. When Cred posts something it's from a Secular Humanist's point of view. Are we not allowed to state our point of view as well?

Do you see the double standard? I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

And when I post something it's from my Deist point of view. When Cred posts something it's from a Secular Humanist's point of view. Are we not allowed to state our point of view as well?

Do you see the double standard? I do.

---

Double standard? I welcome your point of view, and will counter with my point of view. It is called a conversation. We do not have to agree on a topic to have a conversation. Or is that what you are saying? It's a double standard unless I share your point of view?

You can't support your point of view without give some substance to back it up. I am sorry you think that when I support my information with my opinion and beliefs, those words are "bible beating" you into submission. That concept from educated people is almost comical to hear as an argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

And you do so even when someone says they don't want to hear it. That's the problem I have.

---

So, when a christian comes up to you on the streets preaching the gospel and you tell them you are not interested they stand there and don't let you walk away?

When you come to a religion topical conversation on the internet and a christian gives you their beliefs again you can not just take it or leave it?

I must be confused because it sounds like you are saying again that if someone says something that you don't share the same view on, they shouldn't be allowed to say it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why, because I'm not a Christian, therefore, in there eyes, I don't believe, or not enough for them anyway.

---

Why are you concerned what any christian believes you believe if you are satisfied and happy in your beliefs?

You welcome my point of view? Really?

Quote:

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Ultimately I want to surround myself with like minded people.

---

I am not like minded, so why are you bothering to try and converse with me?

Also, a conversation is usually pleasant, one side speaks, the other side listens and then states their side in a nice, polite way. Even if we disagree, we can still be polite.

You posts are filled with anger and aggression, that's not the way I like to converse.

If you really want a conversation, I'm all for it. What I'm against is another argument, and I will not be brought in to one by you or anyone else, not anymore.

I've said what I wanted to say, if you can actually have a rational discussion about our differences, than let me know, I'm more than willing to discuss this with you, but not if every one of my posts is picked apart by you.

Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I am not like minded, so why are you bothering to try and converse with me?

---

With the anonymity of a Q&A board we are not actually surrounding ourselves so that question really has no merit.

This is an interesting conversation that I would like to understand more about why you have such disdain for Christians. You have posted your thoughts and I have posted mine. Not totally sure where you get the anger. On the contrary, I am not even slightly angered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Also, a conversation is usually pleasant, one side speaks, the other side listens and then states their side in a nice, polite way. Even if we disagree, we can still be polite.

You posts are filled with anger and aggression, that's not the way I like to converse.

---

Hmm, so posing question, valid and concise is now anger and aggression?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

If you really want a conversation, I'm all for it. What I'm against is another argument, and I will not be brought in to one by you or anyone else, not anymore.

---

Again how quickly a conversation goes from a conversation to an argument when the two sides don't agree. Interesting.

My last question stands.. If you are satisfied in your beliefs, then why would anything a christian say bother you in any way?

When I answer a valid question and pose one of my own you are upset?

Your whole tone is confrontational, if you can't see that then I'm sorry.

Quote:

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My last question stands.. If you are satisfied in your beliefs, then why would anything a christian say bother you in any way?

---

I am satisfied in my beliefs, and I am curious of others beliefs. That curiosity doesn't mean I'm searching for something different. I would like to know why people believe the things they do.

Now, why are you so eager to have a conversation with a Deist? What do you hope to gain from this conversation? Are you really interested in my beliefs, or just hoping to be able to interject yours into the conversation? Are you really listening to what I say, or are you just waiting for the opportunity to pick apart my words to use to your benefit?

As for your other question, no I'm not upset. I just won't allow myself to become involved in another religious fight. Like I said before, if you want to converse then lets be civil. If you refuse to be civil, then I will not be a part of this "conversation".

I do believe that people with different views can have rational discussion, but it's takes two people, just like it takes two to fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Your whole tone is confrontational, if you can't see that then I'm sorry.

---

Alt, taking a tone from something written is self imposed. I apologize if you perceive my tone to be anything but inquisitive. Truly, that isn't the "tone" I am trying to impart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I am satisfied in my beliefs, and I am curious of others beliefs. That curiosity doesn't mean I'm searching for something different. I would like to know why people believe the things they do.

---

With complete respect to that statement, earlier in the thread I posted a brief description of why the "christian" believes and does what they do. I also am always curious as to what people believe and why.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Now, why are you so eager to have a conversation with a Deist? What do you hope to gain from this conversation? Are you really interested in my beliefs, or just hoping to be able to interject yours into the conversation? Are you really listening to what I say, or are you just waiting for the opportunity to pick apart my words to use to your benefit?

---

You seem like a smart and passionate person who can have a challenging conversation. Gain? Nothing but insight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

As for your other question, no I'm not upset. I just won't allow myself to become involved in another religious fight. Like I said before, if you want to converse then lets be civil. If you refuse to be civil, then I will not be a part of this "conversation".

---

Pro's and con's of a discussion board. One can perceive something completely opposite of the intended meaning. I believe a lot of that is predisposed in ones personality. That is my opinion of coarse so please don't consider that some veiled attack. Just thinking out loud.

This is a stimulating conversation in which uncharacteristically of myself I am not keeping silent. My normal MO is to make a point and bow out gracefully, but I have been stirred to continue. I see a lot of "Christian Hating" on this board which is very sad. Sadly a lot of that is due to "so called Christians" misrepresenting the faith.

Your faith, while not the one I share, is valid for you. My point, long in the making, is that if you are satisfied by your faith then you should be able to dismiss those you think are "judging" you. Anyone's opinion on your beliefs should never have any weight. Stay solid in your faith if you believe that is the road to your salvation.

Now, this is where I would share (not even so much to your benefit but someone who might read this) what I think would be the (in my belief system) true road to salvation. But, again I have already done that, and that isn't the point of this particular post.

God bless you alt :D

I'm sorry if it sounds like I hate Christians, because I really don't. If that's how my posts come across then I truly apologize.

Quote:

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Sadly a lot of that is due to "so called Christians" misrepresenting the faith.

---

Christians aren't the only ones. In every religion there are good an bad, people who follow the true nature of their belief, and those that take that belief and twist it to do harm.

Quote:

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Pro's and con's of a discussion board. One can perceive something completely opposite of the intended meaning.

---

Very true. Unfortunately we cannot talk to each other face to face, and a lot of things are misconstrued in the written word that wouldn't be if we could hear the persons voice.

God bless you too Smoked. :)

Altenweg and Smoked,
It is my opinion derived from being on this board for quite awhile that there is a higher percentage of Christians here who are tolerant, respectful and loving than I have seen on other boards.
Yes we do have a few who are more than assertive, even aggressive, but on other boards it appears to me to be a greater percentage than here.
In my case I am here to two reasons.
1. To see and try to understand other's point of view and opinions whether Chrsitian or not.
2. To express my opinions and see how others respond to them.
I have learned a lot from the several similar boards I have been on over the years.
I try to be respectful all the time, but I admit that I have failed from time to time.
I think that MOST people here can truthfully say the same or words to that effect.
I continue to hope for and wish all to have much peace and kindness, give and take,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

This is the only board I've ever been a member of, so I can't speak for other boards.

From what I've seen I'd say you are correct, most of the Christians here are tolerant and respectful, there are only a few that aren't. Sadly, the bad always sticks out more than the good.

I too try to be respectful, and I too fail, more often then I care to. I'm a thick headed, stubborn German woman, I can't help myself. ;)

Peace and kindness to you as well. God Bless. :)

Alty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I'm a thick headed, stubborn German woman

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No, no, no. You are a pragmatic, strong-minded German freulein who gets things done. (I know. My ancestors are from Hannover.)

Altenweg,
I respect your choice of belief as I do of others.
We all have beliefs. Even the atheists have beliefs or various sorts.
In many counties it is OK, even encouraged, to have and be able to express one's beliefs.
I'm all for that.
I'm also of German extraction as well as from other counties.
I guess I'm a mongrel with blood from about 5 counties.
It's no wonder then (If ethnic blood tells what we are like) that I can be a different person at different times.
LOL
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Wondergirl,
I think you got that right about Alenweg.
Peace and kindness,
Fred