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According to the 10 commandments we shall not make a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above.Wouldnt a picture or a carving in church or home be considered a sin?Jesus is in heaven according to the Bible and our beliefs.I have always felt it is in faith we worship him.I had never felt comfortable with pictures or carvings of him nor Mary. I feel like I'm sinning if I do.
We shall not worship anything other than God.
How about "carvings" of crosses... like are seen in most Christian Churches? Are you OK with that?
I don't have any crosses in my house either.Just because I don't know if it is all right or not.
Can you please state WHY you feel that way ?Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
Sounds to me that you are wasting your life away worrying about if you are sinning or not.
What is the purpose of life, if you do not live it to the fullest ?
:>)
.
I do live my life to the fullest.But at the same time I am trying to do what I believe is right. Ever since I was young I have felt this way.I would go to church every Sunday with my parents and brother, and all I kept thinking about was all of the people around me praying while looking at a huge wall carving of Jesus. I thought what if all these people were actually sinning considering that carving is of someone in the heavens.Right below the carving was the Ten Commandments written out on a large piece of board.All I did was put 2 and 2 together and started thinking about it.I have met many others that wonder the same thing I do.
CHRISTOPHER ROBIN,
Worshipping a cross or a statue of Jesus would be just as wrong as worshipping a statue of anything else. Using the picture or a statue as a reminder is not wrong and that is the motive in most churches. It is a symbol of what we worship but it is NOT what we worship.
In the Screwtape Letters, a fictional story about a demon (Screwtape) talking to his nephew, C S Lewis wrote this about the subject:
“Humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare which makes the background of permanent pain to our lives. If you look into your patients mind when he is praying, you will not find that. If you examine the object to which he is attending, you will find that it is a composite object containing many quite ridiculous ingredients. There will be images derived from pictures of the enemy as He appeared during the discreditable episode known as the Incarnation: there will be vaguer- perhaps quite savage and puerile- images associated with the other two Persons. There will even be some of his own reverence (and the bodily sensation accompanying it) objectified and attributed to the object revered. I have known cases where what the patient called his 'God' was actually located-up and to the left at the corner of the bedroom ceiling, or inside his own head, or in a crucifix on the wall. But whatever the nature of the composite object, you must keep him praying to it-to the thing that he has made, not to the Person who has made him."
The real danger is not with objects but with the mind. It is how you perceive God that matters. Pray not to the god of your mind's imagination but to the one true God. This is the message of the Bible.
- BC
Yes the worshiping of any statue or photo is wrong. But then I don't know any of the major religions that want you to worship them, The Orthodox Church has and uses more ICONs that any other denomination that I know of. They are used to help remind you of the life of great religious people, and to bring you a love and closeness of God.
I will be honest I may recommend where ever you have been getting so much of this off based religious teachings, start looking up facts on the churches web sites,
Do you mean facts like people bowing before the pope, the kissing of his ring.Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God.The pope bows before a statue of Mary. That would be worshiping a false idol, as far as I know.Theres a lot of denominations and only one true God.Somethings not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Those are just your assumptions about things which you don't understand.
We bow before the Pope because he represents Christ:Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Notice that Jesus gave Simon the name that represents Himself:
1 Corinthians 10 4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)
We kiss the Pope's ring, every Bishop's ring, for the same reason. They represent Christ to us:Quote:
the kissing of his ring.
1 Corinthians 4 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.
But Jesus is God and Jesus appointed the Pope to represent Him on this earth. Just a God appointed Moses to represent Him in the Old Testament:Quote:
Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God.
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Sure does. Because she is Jesus' mother. The Queen of Heaven:Quote:
The pope bows before a statue of Mary.
3 Kings 2 19 Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand.
.Quote:
That would be worshiping a false idol, as far as I know
No. A worshipping a false idol would be to pretend that the idol were God. We know that Mary is not God. We simply venerate Mary as we see the Angel of God do in Scripture:
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
That's true. God has provided a Church which He says is infallible:Quote:
There's a lot of denominations and only one true God.Somethings not right.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And which He expects us to obey:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
But some men insist on doing what they want rather than what God wants.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christopher : "there are a lot of ways that lead to Rome". An old saying but still correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
If you feel that "people bowing before the pope, the kissing of his ring, the pope bowing before a statue of Mary, etc. does not agree with your religious views, than just don't do that.
But why should other people believe exactly the same way as you do?
The essence of Christianity is not in words or habits or customs, but in deeds.
It is about how you live your life, how and what you believe, and how you treat others.
You may believe in one "true God". But with so many christian denominations fighting each other about who is the "true follower" of that "true God" it seems that the message and mission of Christianity itself has gone totally lost.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Let me see if you are in the US, do you stand and put your hand over your heartQuote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
For the national anthem, are you worshiping the flag.
No people show respect to the Pope, they show him honor, and
People give reverence to mary, it is not worship. It is merely you totally
Misunderstand what they are doing. This is not to say a few people don't do it wrong, since they like you misunderstand, But no they are not woshiping the Pope, or Mary
You see to have fear, fear that anything is going to be wrong if you do anything about religion. Worshiping of Chrsit should not be anything that has fear in it, If you are scared to have a cross in your home, because it could be a worship, somewhere someone has given you so much fear that you can not find the love that you are suppose to find.
You are worshipping the flag in my opinion.I PLEDGE ALLEGANCE TO THE FLAG.My allegance is with no other than God and His son Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
For God is a jealous god.Fear Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Dueteronomy 10:12, 20:21 what does the Lord your God require from you, but to fear the Lord your God. So my answer is YES FEAR THE LORD.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
I'm going to state this from a Christian point of view, although the situation is the same for all religions:
Here's the problem with worshiping a picture or statue: You're supposed to understand that God and Jesus are right there in the room with you, any time you ask them to be. You don't need to go through an image of them to get to them. You can cut out the "middleman", and speak directly to the source. They are right there, ready to listen. In the same way, you don't need to go through any pope/bishop/priest to get to God. Just start talking to him, he's already listening.
The real God, is the LIVING God. He's right here, right now, right this minute.
That is why, in the ten commandments, we were told not to create any image of God, because it is a human's natural tendency to start worshiping, and becoming obsessed by, the image, thinking that they need to have that image with them to be close to God. We are supposed to understand that the living God is right there with us, whether we have a pretty picture of Him or not.
That's one way in which wars start. Somebody makes an image of God, somebody else thinks that they need to have that image in their possession to be closer to God, so people start killing each other over an object which has no intrinsic value.
Someday man will realize that the entire universe is God's church, and that we don't need to "go to church", and we don't need to listen to any old white men in funny hats to be close to the Supreme Being.
You don't get to God by reading a book, you get to God by looking inside yourself. He's right there, waiting for you to discover Him.
CHRISTOPHEROBIN, please. Come on now. God Is LOVE. A Supreme Being does NOT need to you fear Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
He's the Supreme Being. He knows and has experienced more than you probably ever will or could.
We are such small minded beings compared to The One True God, anything we do probably just seems silly, and actually, even cute, to Him. (Although I'm sure war and rape and child abuse do not seem "cute" to Him, most of the range of human foibles, I'm sure, do.) He knows we're going to fall down, He knows we're going to fail Him and ourselves.
BUT, He also knows where this is all leading, and He knows that, no matter what we do, this is all going to end in a beautiful reconnection of the fragmenting of His consciousness that began this cute little play that we call history, and the physical universe. (THAT is "The Wedding" that Jesus referrers to in the Gospels.)
When you feel love well up in your heart, be it for a person, or your favorite pet, or whatever, THAT is the part of God that you carry with you, momentarily welling up inside you, filling you with His presence.
Honestly, God does NOT need you to fear Him. He just wants you to get to know Him.
Remember, the love that God feels for you is deeper, and more pure, than the love you would feel for even your own children.
Remember also, that even the Pope himself said that we must look to the Bible for "Faith, NOT FACTS". That's straight from the Pope's mouth.
It's a book of man, ABOUT God. It is NOT God's Book.
The Book that God wrote, well, we call that "The Known Universe" (and beyond). And, I got to say, I'm a huge fan of His writing.
My answer is taken from His book.Why would you call Him a liar.Sure you didn't use the word liar, but you are turning your back on His word.Your are some fan,cant even follow what u read.Im not here to judge, that's His job.Im here to follow His Word.Quote:
Originally Posted by worfpunk
If you truly believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty tell Him that you don't fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
HIS WORD? Did you even read what I said?
I'll say it again:
The Bible is a book of man ABOUT GOD. Look to THE BOOK for "FAITH, NOT FACTS".
The Bible is an awesome book. There is so much wisdom in it. It can really help a person when they are in a time of need or are questioning things, but it was written by men ABOUT GOD.
God 'wrote' this reality we exist in, then we wrote a book trying to explain it.
That is the truth.
And, yeah, just to be clear, I did not, and would NEVER call God a liar, don't put words in the mouth of a true believer.
(By the way, I have to get going to work, but I'll check back tonight, if you'd like to continue this discussion.)
God be with you my friend.
Again, fear Him.Bible references that also say to fear Him.In the Torah-Genesis 15:1-20:11-22:12-42:18. Exodus 1:17-1:21-9:20-9:21-9:30-15:16-18:21-20:17-34:10.Leviticus 19:14-19-32-25:17-25:36-25:43.The Holy Bible-Leviticus-25:17- Deuteronomy-4:10-6:2-6:13-6:24-10:12-10:20-14:23-31:12-31:13. Joshua-24:14. 1 Samuel-12:14-12:24 2Kings-17:39. 1 Chronicles-16:25. Nehemiah-5:9. Job-28:28.Psalm-19:9-25:14-33:8-33:18-34:9-96:4-103:11-103:13-103:17-111:10-112:1-115:13-128:147:11. Proverbs-1:7-14:2-22:4-24:21.Eucleiastes-5:7-12:13.Isaiah-8:13. Hosea-3:5. Malachi-2:4and5. Jeremaih-5:22. Mathew-10:28.Luke-12:5-1:50. Romans3:10-18.Quote:
Originally Posted by worfpunk
2Corinthians7:1. Ephesians5:21. Colossians-3:22. Hebrews-10:31. 1 Peter 2:17. Revelation-14:7-15:4.Do you still believe you don't have to fear God? This should be enough to convince you.
Remember you just think what we do is silly or even cute in His eyes, why would you be worried.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
Are you now reacting to your own posts ?Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
:)
I noticed that too, that's what happens when arguments go awry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
We can be certain that any descriptive term we use for God, in isolation, will fall well short of illuminating all that He is. The best we can do is to continually appreciate and accept all His many qualities, without neglecting those we do not understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISTOPHEROBIN
Sometimes we are guilty of overlooking the fact that Jesus became a complete man, and then sometimes we are sometimes guilty of forgetting His awesome power, His supremacy and His authority.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with our image of the peaceful and kind Jesus who calls children to Him and always turns the other cheek. It's a completely accurate although incomplete description of our Lord. As an extension of that image, we may have the idea that if we were to meet Jesus face to face, we would shake His hand, perhaps give Him a hug and then go grab a coffee.
The passage from Isaiah 6:1-5 is a startling reminder of what would happen if we were to actually meet our God face to face, revealed to us in all His true glory. Like Isaiah, in the presence of the almighty God, seated on His throne, we would fall on our knees and proclaim "Woe is me - my eyes have seen the King!"
Let us never forget that God is to be feared. God is to be respected. He is the creator of everything seen and unseen, and deserves our worship and adoration. His power is limitless and without equal. His glory and holiness are beyond our limited measure.
[QUOTE=CHRISTOPHEROBIN]
In short, yes. True christians adhere to the commandment to worship only God. Not through idols, or pictures or other humans.Quote:
Wouldn't a picture or a carving in church or home be considered a sin?
John 4:24 states that God is a spirit so we should worship him with spirit and truth.
Psa 115:4-7 explains how the worship of idols (or any object) is pointless. 2 Cor 5:7 - "we are walking by faith not by sight." Do we really need something in front of us to remind us who we are worshipping?
The same goes for national flags. Our devotion should be to God alone, not man and his country.
John 17:14,15 "I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."
These are my thoughts. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. :)
The first reaction I get from these lines is a direct aversion to your "True christians".Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
Any post suggesting any view or viewpoint to be "true" should be treated as plague, ebola, STD, or MRSA .
Specially as the only support for that "true" is belief-only based, totally lacking any OSE.
I did not see any mentioning of worshopping of these pictures and carvings in his post.
Why can't you accept that beautiful pictures, statues, and carvings just raise the total ambiance and provide a more open attitude towards worshopping the focus of the Christian belief?
If you simply do not like to be surrounded by pictures etc. than don't : you are free to do so. But to condemn pictures etc. as sin? That is more a display of reformist closed-mindedness.
Note : that does not mean that I agree with CHRISTOPHEROBIN's viewpoint !
:rolleyes:
Thanks Crede, I was looking at the main title of this question, which mentions worship, or maybe I'm reading into the question too much.
If we have a beautiful painting of scenery on the wall or a pretty glass swan on the mantle, one would assume these are not being worshipped or venerated (if that is what you are talking about), but if it be a statue or picture of Jesus or Mary, I wouldn't feel comfortable with them either Chris. In someone else's home, that is their choice, but not in my home. :)
CHRISTOPHEROBIN
I am a Catholic and I do not worship anything or anyone other than God.
I know many Christians of several denominations where there are crosses and statues and paintings and lead glass widows with beautiful images in them but none are worshiped, only God is.
If someone bows to another person it is not worshiping that person it is paying them honor.
Honor and worship are vastly different things.
I honor, praise, revere, adore, and worship God. Every one of those activities is different than worship.
The icons you speak of are used to remind people of the ever presence of God and/or His saints or of various bible stories.
Several people here have explained that to you in different ways.
I hope that their efforts have help you dispel your fear of religious artifacts for artifacts is really all that they are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Sorry I had to leave the discussion for a while, anyway... I agree completely with everything BlakeCory said. He's stated my point of view much more clearly than I've been able to, and I've highlighted below the sections that I am especially referring to:
OK, see, especially when you say it like that, I completely agree: Just like, when I was a small child, I loved my dad, but I also feared him. Yes, we are but small-minded children compared to God. And He should always, in the sense that BlakeCory means it, be feared, revered, respected, honored, and worshiped.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeCory
I guess I'm saying there's a difference between blind fear and fear born from respect.
I hope that clarifies my stance a bit more, and BlakeCory, thank you for stating my point of view in an obviously much more clear fashion than I was able to.
Go be with you all.
"May your troubles be as few and far between as my dear old grandma's teeth"
worfpunk,
I agree 100% with you and BlakeCory on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
... wow CHRISTOPEROBIN, I aplogize for you having to read so many bad posts... You ask a good question wth a simple answer. You also have a good viewpoint on ONE GOD. I am going to try not to begin quoting scripture so as not to give these other guys so much to seethe over. God reminds throughout the whole Bible to not make or bow down to any graven image; nether should you worship any. God is a spirit, he has no physical body. If you read about world religions, the most important thing to have is and IMAGE of their god or gods. God needs no IMAGE to show His greatness. I would love to have more discussins with you, but as of this thread, I do not want it to become an debate.
notrubillah,
True, God himself tells us nit to worship nay graven image,
But also note the God commanded various images erected or made for various purposes.
The temple He commanded to be built was full of graven images each with a symbolic meaning to aid focus.
Today we have certain Christian denominations that have images in their Churches.
Some are very simple such as a cross. Others are beautiful painting or leaded windows or statues.
They are not there for people to worship but rather to depict a bible story or as an aid to focus a person's attention such as a statue of the holy family or a Christmas cretch display.
Also the bible tells us that Jesus is an image, "The visible image of the invisible God"
Peace and kindness,
Fred
.
well... I really do not feel that this is answering CHRISTOPHEROBIN's question. You seem to want to defend your own statues in your comments. I am sorry if your church worships statues, maybe you should find another church, one that worships one God. Angels were erected in the temple of Solomon, Moses erected the brazen serpent, and at first, your argument seems solid. Where you lack understanding is that the brazen serpent was destroyed since people started worshipping it, and where were there ANY statues of humans placed inside a temple? The angels erected above the Arc of the Covenant were not ICONs to remind us of holy people. The man Jesus Christ was the visible image of the invisible God. Jesus reminded us not to make any statues Himself. Jesus when he was on earth did not want to make a following of people that worshiped an image. He came to get the lost sheep of the house of Israel to worship God in Spirit and Truth. It was only after he died that this promise was extended to the gentiles, thanks to Peter. Did Peter or any of the other 120 saints need any ICONs to help them get the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost? If they did not need them then, why would we need them now? I am not trying to step on anybodies toes, if you have a picture of angels, or little statues, go ahead, I personally don't. The question on this post was simple. It is truly that YES, it is a sin to worship any statue or image.
I can see nothing wrong with wearing a cross necklace. It is symbolic of Christianity and a reminder of what Christ did for us. I personally find pictures of the Lord tacky and wouldn't want one in my home. NOT because I think I am worshiping it though... just personal taste.
Now, as far as bowing to any man.. that is where I draw the line. NO WAY. It is wrong, I bow only before the Lord Jesus Christ. The pope had to be saved from his sins the same as I did. It is wrong.
notrubillah,
Please get this straight.
I nor any other Catholic or person of other denominations who have statues or pictures worships them.
I resent the implication that I do. It is purely false.
Where you get that idea from is an old, old distortion of the true facts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Well to me it is legalism when you suggest someone CAN'T have a picture of the Lord or a cross or a statue. Put it in perspective... if people are coming before it and bowing and worshipping.. ok I have a problem. But most people just love the Lord and want to display it. You can make anything a sin if you want to.
classyT,
Point well made.
Thank you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
... When you pray to God what comes to mind? Is it the crucifix hanging between your palms? That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to? I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray. God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs? Jesus specifically told us not to. This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.
Notrubillah,
That was quite the little diatribe. Sadly, it's also an uninformed diatribe. (Speaking for myself, I tend to find the uninformed diatribes to be the least compelling.)
Not sure why you'd ask this, as though prayer were just a psychological exercise.Quote:
Originally Posted by notrubillah
Catholics don't. Neither do Eastern Orthodox. The Bible prohibits the proskunesis of anything other than God. The Catholic Church continues to abide by this: Catholics do not engage in the worship (proskunesis) of icons. Catholics do, however, venerate icons by showing respect. Veneration is a very ancient Christian practice, and we have icons dating to the earliest years of Christianity. Moreover, the placement of the corpus, or body, on a crucifix was instituted to combat docetism, i.e. the view that Christ didn't really come and die in the flesh. The placement of the corpus is a reminder that it was a real man of flesh and blood who died on the cross. This seems like a good thing.Quote:
That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to?
No, they are not just artistic depictions. Here's where it would have been a good idea to educate yourself before posting a rant. Icons express theological, religious, spiritual truths, just as the words of a book convey such truths. You have to remember that throughout its history, there have been a great many Christians who couldn't read. There still are. Stained glass in a church is a way of teaching the faithful the truths of the faith. So too in the case of others sorts of icons (whether they are paintings or statues or what have you): They educate us in our faith by the use of symbols, just as the printed word educates us in our faith by the use of symbols (in a book, the symbols represent words). To pray while gazing at an icon is no different that to pray while reading the Bible. It is a kind of meditative prayer.Quote:
I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray.
Because Jesus WAS flesh and bones, because Jesus wasn't pure spirit but was a human being who lived, suffered, and died. Just like us: we are human beings, and we are called to worship with our minds, our spirits, our bodies, and all our senses. Catholic worship includes elements that engage all of these: Catholics adopt different postures because the body participates in worship; Catholics burn incense and candles, use lots of different colors, play music and sing, etc. It is the whole person who worships.Quote:
God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs?
Jesus expressly condemned veneration? Where did he do that?Quote:
Jesus specifically told us not to.
You'd be better off devoting the time you take to type your rants to reading about the history of the religion to which you profess to belong. Nothing that you have singled out for your scorn is new. In fact, it's all very, very ancient.Quote:
This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.
Interestingly, the sort of iconoclasm you advocate is not itself new. It emerged in the eighth century and was an import from Islam adopted by some Christians who were heavily influenced by Islamic teaching. It is not native to Christianity.
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