In several recent topic posts it was suggested that any discussion here should be related to religion and that in any statement including deities and/or religious dogma should the validity of belief in these be taken for granted. But is that indeed so?

If I would start a topic "why would "god/gods" exist?" that would be a proper topic for this Religious Discussions board.
It relates to religion, includes a statement on "god/gods", and provides either an opinion on or a question about either of these.

And about "I believe" : if I would post a topic about the non-existence of god/gods, I would start such an opinion topic with "I do not believe that", as I can not provide any OSE for deities to exist, or not to exist. So why would anyone not have to post "I believe that" before posting statements like "God does this or knows that"??

Religious discussions are just normal discussions about a rather precarious subject that involves a lot of opinion and often very long toes. And people who can not handle that should reconsider their participation on a board like this.

Any comments ?

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Because it you it is a belief, to a christian it is a fact and you merely believe things wrong since you don't accept it.

And while you want to see the word believe, to be honest it is starting to get old, since your posts are merely repeating , "you need to say beleive" it is actually almost sad that you wish to attack and attach for little reason in Christianity areas. Since you don't believe I see little reason for you to want to discuss things, unless you have other motives beyond just wanting to be a pain to christians. And to be honest if you don't like the fact that Christians feel it is a fact and don't want to accept that perhaps you need not to be posting there, if you don't like it.

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Religious discussions are just normal discussions about a rather precarious subject that involves a lot of opinion and often very long toes. And people who can not handle that should reconsider their participation on a board like this.

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Cred, I have to admit that I am reconsidering participating on the religious discussion boards. I have had calm, logical discussions with people on this board, but someone always comes along that will not accept a discussion about anything other than their specific faith and insists on proving that their faith is fact.

As you know I do not believe in organized religion or church, and apparently that makes many people uneasy, even angry. I also don't have a problem with someone not believing in God. Some of the best conversations I've had in the Religious Discussion board have been with atheists, none of them ever tried to get me to stop believing, none of them made fun of my beliefs, even though they questioned my beliefs, no one preached, and when I asked questions I got answers. I cannot say the same about conversations I've had with Christians, not all, but enough that I'm seriously considering not coming back to Religious Discussions.

I have no desire to attempt to have a conversation only to receive quotes from the bible, prayers for my doomed soul and the like. Questions go unanswered and when I ask again then I'm a trouble maker, if I don't have the same beliefs then I'm wrong and there will not be a discussion about what I believe and why.

I thought the Religious Discussions board was just that, a place to discuss religion, whether you believe or not. A place to ask questions, whether you believe or not. A place to talk to other people with different beliefs, different ideas and learn from each other. I for one would love nothing more, but I don't think it's going to happen.

Still considering whether to continue going to this board, we'll see. I have to say Cred, I've enjoyed our recent conversations, and I thank you for finally finding a word that describes my faith, I'm proud to be a Deist. :)

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

... to a christian it is ...
... in Christianity areas ...
... a pain to christians ...
... that Christians feel it is ...

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I did not mention Christianity.
This topic has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

... And if you don't like the fact that Christians feel it is a fact and don't want to accept that perhaps you need not to be posting there, if you don't like it.

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I did not mention Christianity.
This topic has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

I posted on the Religious Discussions board about what are Religious Discussions. The first time the word Christianity came into the topic was in your reaction.
Many posters here may be unaware that "Religious Discussions" is not the same as "Christian Discussions".
But you as Moderator/Christianity Expert should at least know the difference, even with your own bias.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Still considering whether or not to continue going to this board, we'll see.

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I understand. A post like Chuck's speaks volumes!

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I've enjoyed our recent conversations, and I thank you for finally finding a word that describes my faith, I'm proud to be a Deist. :)

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Good for you. And don't let them drive you against the wall for refusing to except their bible and beliefs!
I'll see you around!

:)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I did not mention Christianity.
This topic has NOTHING to do with Christianity.


I did not mention Christianity.
This topic has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

I posted on the Religious Discussions board about what are Religious Discussions. The first time the word Christianity came into the topic was in your reaction.
Many posters here may be unaware that "Religious Discussions" is not the same as "Christian Discussions".
But you as Moderator/Christianity Expert should at least know the difference, even with your own bias.

:rolleyes:

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Um let me see you did not say anything about Christianity BUT what religion are the people that come to this board that you are referring to since you 'seem' to be referring to the 'religious' people that come to this board. Let me see that would include Catholics (which are Christian) and people who call themselves Christian along with one Muslim. Other than that I really don't see any other 'religious' people here so I agree maybe Fr_Chuck should have said 'Christians, a muslim and whatever other religion'. What other religions would you have liked him to include in his statement?
But then you would have likely said he should only be speaking for himself and not others, which I have also seen you do!
So Fr_Chuck was giving his opinion based on HIS Christian belief which IS a religious discussion.
Why do you nit pick words like you do?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Why do you nit pick words like you do?????

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Why do you "nit pick" yourself? Seems to be your favorite activity...

:rolleyes:

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I only nit pick at the nit picking :D

Crede,

I normally use the word "I believe",it has become habit while posting around the Desk,but this does not mean that if I were to not use the word,members who do not follow my beliefs will think that I am stating something I do not believe.

Those who are not of my faith or even of my faith will know when I state anything religious,that it is my beliefs,it is quite obvious that I am talking about my beliefs.

As Fr-Chuck said,to someone who does not believe or follow my faith it may seem only a belief,but to me it is the truth and fact(which you insist on calling belief because you do not believe them).

Anyway,stating "I believe" need not be an issue on any religious board because it is obvious when anyone posts it is their belief.

I agree Firmbeliever, even if you didn't say 'I believe' and you are Muslim I still follow you quite well.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I have to admit that I am reconsidering participating on the religious discussion boards. I have had calm, logical discussions with people on this board, but someone always comes along that will not accept a discussion about anything other than their specific faith and insists on proving that their faith is fact.

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Yeah and some choose to question why others speak of their faith as evident Truth?

Guess you just have to allow each their own opinion, and stay clear of questions that you really don't want an answer to after all.

Religion is a subject that usually causes hurt feelings, anger, a whole range of emotions, not all positive.

I actually go to the religious discussion board because I'm interested in hearing other peoples point of view, I do have to admit that I get upset at times and then lash out, although I'm working really hard at not doing that anymore.

As for questioning peoples beliefs, well that's part of religious discussion. If you are in a room full of people chances are you will not believe the same things as everyone else. Sometimes people can have rational discussions about their differing beliefs, other times it's just not possible.

I will admit that it bothers me allot when people try to explain their beliefs by using the bible, because I don't believe that the bible is Gods word, so quoting the bible when answering my post or question is like slapping me in the face. I don't mind the first time someone does that because they don't know that I don't believe the bible is relevant, but after specifically telling them that, and having them post bible scripture over and over again, well, that does upset me. Ex: If you were discussing satanism with a satanist and he/she quoted from the satanic bible and you expressed to them that you don't believe in that book but they continued to quote from it, you'd be upset right?

If we could all, and I do mean all, just respect each other and put our differences aside then we could discuss anything, but that's not possible, we all think we're right, and we're all willing to fight to prove it, and all that does is cause anger, dissention and another thread being closed. It's gotten to the point that I can pick which thread will be closed long before it ever happens, just by what the thread is about and who joins in the discussion.

There are people I can discuss religion with, surprisingly it's usually the people who do not even believe in God. Maybe it's because I don't try to convince them that God exists anymore than they try to convince me he doesn't.

I guess the main question is, what does everyone expect to gain from discussing their beliefs? Is it knowledge, is it curiosity, or is it just to stick up for your belief?

Discussion, to me, usually are begun to resolve a dilemma or question. I think that the questions board is for more cut and dried answers, but here in discussion there may be more than one answer given and also the reasons for the belief in that answer. I do not state "I believe" before every statement, because I have been taught how to properly cite things that are not my thoughts/beliefs. So, what I say I believe withouth having the redundant statement. The Word of God is my reality--whether you believe in it or not.

I have found that most of the posters in this section are Christian, of some denomination or other. There are some who are Christians with no afiliation, and there are some here who aren't sure where they fit. I don't really like to box people's beliefs into different compartments, so I use two--saved and unsaved.

I don't like the "pick the poster apart" type of discussion. This seems to be counterproductive and causes the poster to be defensive. I don't know about you, but when I'm defensive, I don't listen. Even in a religious discussion you can be nice and civil to others.

My responses will come from a Christian background and will be backed up by the Bible. This is my foundation and my focus in life. This is where I learn how I'm supposed to be, act and everything else. So everything I respond to is shaped by this. I will cite my beliefs with scripture and I will often post scripture alone as it stands very well to answer some posts without my interpretation or comment. God speaks better than I can.

Having said this... you know where I stand.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

In several recent topic posts it was suggested that any discussion here should be related to religion and that in any statement including deities and/or religious dogma should the validity of belief in these be taken for granted. But is that indeed so?

If I would start a topic "why would "god/gods" exist?" that would be a proper topic for this Religious Discussions board.
It relates to religion, includes a statement on "god/gods", and provides either an opinion on or a question about either of these.

And about "I believe" : if I would post a topic about the non-existence of god/gods, I would start such an opinion topic with "I do not believe that", as I can not provide any OSE for deities to exist, or not to exist. So why would anyone not have to post "I believe that" before posting statements like "God does this or knows that" ???

Religious discussions are just normal discussions about a rather precarious subject that involves a lot of personal opinion and often very long toes. And people who can not handle that should reconsider their participation on a board like this.

Any comments ?

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Religious discussions... hmmm...


I believe should be about learning about and loving GOD and each other.:D

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Religious discussions...hmmm...


I believe should be about learning about and loving GOD and each other.:D

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But there are other boards for that. There's the Christianity board, I believe a Muslim board, and other boards that are for discussing the belief of God. From my understanding the religious discussion board is for people of all faiths, be it Atheism, Christianity, Deism, whatever.

Sure it is about discussing the belief of God and yes that should include any and all God's that each religion believes in but Atheism has no faith or believe in so therefore they still are discussing God, ---whose ever God that may be

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I agree Firmbeliever, even if you didn't say 'I believe' and you are Muslim I still follow you quite well.

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That is what a discussion should be about, getting a point across of our own view of the topic, and to read others view,not necessarily follow/accept,but to know and understand.

To me that is a discussion, trying to prove each other wrong is a debate,which I do not like,because when someone actually tries to tear my beliefs apart,it saddens me as my reality and perception are all connected to my faith which I take as fact and truth.

I understand why anyone of any faith feels defensive of their beliefs in a debate,but prefers to put their point across in a discussion.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

That is what a discussion should be about, getting a point across of our own view of the topic, and to read others view,not neccessarily follow/accept,but to know and understand.

To me that is a discussion, trying to prove each other wrong is a debate,which I do not like,because when someone actually tries to tear my beliefs apart,it saddens me as my reality and perception are all connected to my faith which I take as fact and truth.

I understand why anyone of any faith feels defensive of their beliefs in a debate,but prefers to put their point across in a discussion.

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I'm still working on not being defensive, getting there slowly but surely. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

But there are other boards for that. There's the Christianity board, I believe a Muslim board, and other boards that are for discussing the belief of God. From my understanding the religious discussion board is for people of all faiths, be it Atheism, Christianity, Deism, whatever.

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We used to just post on the Christianity board, but the authorities on this site moved stuff here and created this section to try to keep the Q & A separate.

"You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

Yeah they seem to move stuff here they feel is going to a debate. Not that they don't have debates there but that is their reasoning and I don't know why they move some and not some others.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

"You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

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Now that quote I love. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Now that quote I love.

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I'm sure that these words were originally stated by Abraham Lincoln, another convinced Deist...
May be a second reason why you like it !

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

From my understanding the religious discussion board is for people of all faiths, be it Atheism, Christianity, Deism, whatever.

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My understanding also !

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I normally use the word "I believe",it has become habit while posting around the Desk,but this does not mean that if I were to not use the word,members who do not follow my beliefs will think that I am stating something I do not believe.

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I'm sure you believe everything religious you post. What I hinted at is that you may believe whatever you prefer. But that there is no OSE for any religious claim. So without OSE all religious statements are claims, nothing more. Problem is here that many people think that what they believe is factual reality. And that is not so !

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I understand why anyone of any faith feels defensive of their beliefs in a debate,but prefers to put their point across in a discussion.

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No problem with that. But that is something else than whatever you believe to suggest as an factual reality! Hence the request for "I believe that ..."

;)

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Originally Posted by inthebox

I believe should be about learning about and loving GOD and each other.

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WHY ??? One may believe anything from me, from God to the Pink Unicorn to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to Devil to fairy to Elf etc. etc. etc. There are no restrictions to what one can believe.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

So why would anyone not have to post "I believe that" before posting statements like "God does this or knows that" ???

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Because YOU do not get to order what other people on this board say, and how they say it. If I want to say, "Bigfoot exists", I can say that. There is nothing on the site rules of this board prohibiting me from doing that. I am not REQUIRED to say, "I believe Bigfoot exists." YOU and YOU alone, appear to be the one with the problem of people not saying "I believe". It's YOUR standard, hold YOURSELF to it, and let other people hold themselves to their own standards.

It's a small and petty victory to insist that everyone on this board post "I believe" before they state something to do with their religion. Their beliefs are what they hold true, what is true to them. You don't have to agree with it, but you also don't have to nit-pick (and you do) every single flippin' time someone says something without your stated mandatory preface. Move on, it's gotten old.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

It's YOUR standard, hold YOURSELF to it

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Ok. I always hold myself to that. If I claim something I can not provide OSE for, I state "I believe that ..." , or "It is my view that ..." or something similar.

If people here keep refusing to indicate to that same "I believe" before their claims, then they should stop moaning every time I react to their wild claims with "You BELIEVE that !"
But that they won't : they keep moaning about that.

If I have to accept their wild claims, they will have to accept my "You BELIEVE that" corrections ! It is as simple as that !

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Their beliefs are what they hold true, what is true to them.

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Precisely. But is it "true"? The lacking OSE says No, No, and No again !

:rolleyes:

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Cred, when you insist on others following your set standard of communication, you alienate them. We all know that you disagree with what we believe, but to continue to tell us that it's what we believe when we've said it is redundant.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Ok. I always hold myself to that. If I claim something I can not provide OSE for, I state "I believe that ..." , or "It is my view that ..." or something similar.

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You do always hold yourself to that, I never said you didn't. But again, it is YOUR standard, not someone else's. Why do we all have to post to your standards?

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If people here keep refusing to indicate to that same "I believe" before their claims, then they should stop moaning every time I react to their wild claims with "You BELIEVE that !"
But that they won't : they keep moaning about that.

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Well that's rather arrogant of you, don't you think? If people don't do what I want them to (when I have no authority over them) they should just deal with me being a pain? Pssst... your maturity is showing (and it doesn't look good).

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If I have to accept their wild claims, they will have to accept my "You BELIEVE that" corrections ! It is as simple as that !

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And that, right there is where your logic and argument FAILS. You don't have to accept their wild claims, you just have to accept that they aren't going to post according to your "rules". You do know that just because you read "God exists" it doesn't mean you actually have to agree with it, right? That you have to accept it? You're accepting the way they post not what they say. Big difference.

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Precisely. But is it "true"? The lacking OSE says No, No, and No again !

:rolleyes:

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So what? So what if there is no OSE? Maybe it's not important to them. News flash - what is important to you isn't important to everyone else. That's why it is their truth, not yours. How about you complain when they force their beliefs on you, force you to live according to their religion, instead of complaining when they force you to read a statement that doesn't begin with "I believe"?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I guess the main question is, what does everyone expect to gain from discussing their beliefs? Is it knowledge, is it curiosity, or is it just to stick up for your belief?

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Ask first, what do you expect to gain in discussion of their belief or your belief? Are you curious? Or is it to permit your own thought in mind to agree with your heart?

Most readers agree that a rejection of the mind is also not permitted in the heart.

God sents strong delusion to any who's thoughts are negative so that they reap their own choice. A positive mind leads to a positive heart.. Harmony

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Ask first, what do you expect to gain in discussion of their belief or your belief? Are you curious? Or is it to permit your own thought in mind to agree with your heart?

Most readers agree that a rejection of the mind is also not permitted in the heart.

God sents strong delusion to any who's thoughts are negative so that they reap their own choice. A positive mind leads to a postive heart.. Harmony

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What do I expect? I would like to discuss others points of view on God, even others points of view that there is no God, just open discussion about their beliefs and why they believe, their thoughts and the choices they've made and why they made those choices.

I know what I believe and why, and I just recently found a name to describe what I believe, before that I thought I was alone in my beliefs.

I do know why so many times a discussion goes bad. As a Christian you are in the majority for what you believe, in a room full of people chances are you will find many people with the same beliefs as you. If I am in a room full of people I usually stand alone in my beliefs, the same goes for Atheists.

After defending our beliefs against people for so long it becomes second nature to go into any discussion being defensive because you expect to be outnumbered. I'm not saying is us against you, but it does feel like that many times. Perhaps you'd feel differently if you were in the minority.

I just want to discuss, unfortunately I do have to say that most times I am ready for a fight, not because I want to fight, but because I expect a fight. When I write on the Religious discussion board I spend allot of time thinking about what I want to write, I don't want to offend anyone, yet I still want to state what is on my mind, allot of the time that leads to someone taking it as a challenge to prove their belief, and I admit that I have not yet learned to back down when I feel challenged.

I for one would like to try to discuss things, but I don't know if it's possible, perhaps we are all too different and set in our ways and beliefs, discussion requires relaxing your guard, being willing to see another point of view, it's possible if everyone gets on board.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

What do I expect? I would like to discuss others points of view on God, even others points of view that there is no God, just open discussion about their beliefs and why they believe, their thoughts and the choices they've made and why they made those choices.

I know what I believe and why, and I just recently found a name to describe what I believe, before that I thought I was alone in my beliefs.

I do know why so many times a discussion goes bad. As a Christian you are in the majority for what you believe, in a room full of people chances are you will find many people with the same beliefs as you. If I am in a room full of people I usually stand alone in my beliefs, the same goes for Atheists.

After defending our beliefs against people for so long it becomes second nature to go into any discussion being defensive because you expect to be outnumbered. I'm not saying is us against you, but it does feel like that many times. Perhaps you'd feel differently if you were in the minority.

I just want to discuss, unfortunately I do have to say that most times I am ready for a fight, not because I want to fight, but because I expect a fight. When I write on the Religious discussion board I spend allot of time thinking about what I want to write, I don't want to offend anyone, yet I still want to state what is on my mind, allot of the time that leads to someone taking it as a challenge to prove their belief, and I admit that I have not yet learned to back down when I feel challenged.

I for one would like to try to discuss things, but I don't know if it's possible, perhaps we are all too different and set in our ways and beliefs, discussion requires relaxing your guard, being willing to see another point of view, it's possible if everyone gets on board.

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Alt,
You know we have discussed this in previous posts. All I can add is, when we are discussing a religious topic each person is going to base their comments on what they know and their personal experience.

It bothers me that people don't understand that having strong belief in something doesn't mean you have to believe it.

OP- When you discuss a broad topic of Religion.. if you don't define your topic you should expect that everyone from every religion will weigh in on what they think/believe. To expect anything less is ridiculous.

I am beginning to wonder why you continue to post here since most of what you have posted seems to be geared towards inciting people. When someone has a valid argument you derail your own thought and go off in another direction. Much of what I will expect from this new thread.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

What do I expect? I would like to discuss others points of view on God, even others points of view that there is no God, just open discussion about their beliefs and why they believe, their thoughts and the choices they've made and why they made those choices.

I know what I believe and why, and I just recently found a name to describe what I believe, before that I thought I was alone in my beliefs.

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When I expect something from others that I want to hear, I would go where I can find conversation pretaining to what I expect and want. It just happens to be my expectation is different then yours if we are to talk about religion. I am not here to force someone into something I expect. But I am also not here to have someone force me into accepting what they believe.

My mind rejects what I hear as wrong.. And I am sure your mind does the same. There are times when I hear, for an example, church teachings by man, and I reject those teaching if they suggest man's teaching is above God's. I feel we are limited to our choice when it comes to God. You either do or don't believe, and you either do or don't put God first above all else.

Anything rejected by the mind is then rejected by the heart. If we took a depressed person and tried to inject joy, you would find that impossible to do. Their choice in their mind is of the negative, you can not choose for someone else, and their heart will display that same negative. The opposite is the same...

Should someone be in struggle with their mind and heart, I suppose they then question both sides of what life offers. Things have a way of working out, when the heart is given opportunity, because I trust when your hearts holds love, that love is the greatest of emotions.

Credendo,

Believers who take their scriptures literally-not symbolically-would be best served to say,"I believe my religion is the truth". They are gracious enough to imply that they understand that other people don't think that their religion is the truth.

In fact, there is no reason to argue after a statement like that, unless one likes to argue about religion or scriptures.

Since I am an atheist/secular humanist, I am just going to say that I have no interest in any talk concerning topics that imply the possible existence of a supernatural world.

And actually, I'm not interested in discussion anything about religion at this time!! :D

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

WHY ??? One may believe anything from me, from God to the Pink Unicorn to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to Devil to fairy to Elf etc. etc. etc. There are no restrictions to what one can believe.

:rolleyes:

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Its ironic :cool: that on a religious board, you are surprised that people believe in God.

Hey, just for you, I wrote bolded and prefaced it with "believe." ;)


Major Religions Ranked by Size


Will you not be satisfied till no one "believes" in God :confused:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Will you not be satisfied till no one "believes" in God

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Not at all. It is my opinion that everyone is free to believe whatever they believe.

AND YOU KNOW THAT VERY WELL - so why statements like yours here?

As to being satisfied on the point of religious approach : that will be the moment believers will admit that everything they believe is belief, that the reality of what they believe is not reality but belief. Even for their own beliefs.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Choux

Believers who take their scriptures literally-not symbolically-would be best served to say,"I believe my religion is the truth". They are gracious enough to imply that they understand that other people don't think that their religion is the truth.

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Although I understand how you mean that, my point is : if it is truth or not is only possible to know if discussion on the basics is possible, i.e. when dogma is no longer the central core of religion.
Where are the real religious discussions - on this board or anywhere else? Discussions on the essence of religion?
All I see is dogma, lack of any OSE, and many very long toes !

;)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

As to being satisfied on the point of religious approach : that will be the moment believers will admit that everything they believe is belief, that the reality of what they believe is not reality but belief. Even for their own beliefs.
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When will you realize that belief is reality to most people?

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Originally Posted by Smoked

When will you realize that belief is reality to most people?

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Incorrect : they BELIEVE it is reality. But is it ? That only can be concluded from the provided support.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

You do always hold yourself to that, I never said you didn't. But again, it is YOUR standard, not someone else's. Why do we all have to post to your standards?



Well that's rather arrogant of you, don't you think? If people don't do what I want them to (when I have no authority over them) they should just deal with me being a pain? Pssst... your maturity is showing (and it doesn't look good).



And that, right there is where your logic and argument FAILS. You don't have to accept their wild claims, you just have to accept that they aren't going to post according to your "rules". You do know that just because you read "God exists" it doesn't mean you actually have to agree with it, right? That you have to accept it? You're accepting the way they post not what they say. Big difference.




So what? So what if there is no OSE? Maybe it's not important to them. News flash - what is important to you isn't important to everyone else. That's why it is their truth, not yours. How about you complain when they force their beliefs on you, force you to live according to their religion, instead of complaining when they force you to read a statement that doesn't begin with "I believe"?

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STANDING OVATION