Well, I decided to open up a huge can of worms, but I hope that we can all have a rational discussion about this, because I really do want everyone's point of view.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

The Bible was written by men, not God, not Jesus, but men. How do you explain all the contradictions in the bible? Do you really believe everything that the bible states, all the miracles, all the stories?

Why do people quote the bible and expect that to be taken as proof of Gods word?

I believe in God, but not the bible, I believe in God but not in Church. Isn't the belief of the bible and church putting you in the hands of man, not God?

I'm curious to know, so please respond, but lets be nice about it. I will admit now that no matter what you say about the validity of the bible, I will not ever accept it as the word of God, 10 years of Catholic school got that out of my system. I just want to know why Christians believe in a man written book, after all, man is not perfect, man is not infallible, so how can the bible be the God's honest truth?

Basically I believe the Bible because not only do Christians believe the Old Testament but the Jews also go by it and I believe the Jews are God's chosen people and the Bible was inspired by God. I also believe that many of the so called contradictions are not really contradictions but things man has not yet fully come to understand. Also many things are history, allegories, parables, and so forth and you have to take it in the proper context that it is meant. Also, there are things that were written in man's own words as an eyewitness account and it is fact that when you have different people witnessing the same event you are going to have stories that appear to conflict because each one sees and puts emphasis on what they see or consider important. For example, where it says that Judas hung from a tree and another says he went off a cliff it could have been he hung from a tree by a cliff and the branch broke. One choose to mention the cliff the other chose to mention the tree. I really don't care to discuss the so called 'contradictions' in general and would rather answer each one asked specifically.

Also want to add that there are many things mentioned in the Bible that man had no idea of back then. Science basically backs up much of what God already said.

Science and the Bible

Science in the Bible

Matthew Fontaine Maury 'discovered' underwater currents in the sea by a Bible verse.
Matthew Fontaine Maury In Profile Part 1

And in fact there are not as many contradictions as people wish to assume, most are assumed for misunderstanding or taking things out of context and/or merely using today's english translations.

In fact the bible completes itself, with the OT being a more historical nature and the NT being eye witness testomony of what has ahppened

I do value and respect your point of view NoHelp, my problem is that the bible wasn't written by God, it was written by man. It's an old book and has been translated many times, perhaps that's why there are so many contradictions. Some even say that the translations where incorrect, basically guesses because no one spoke or understood the original language they were written in. That's what some people say, but it hasn't been proven so I won't say it's fact.

I do understand why there are so many contradictions, like you said, different people witnessing different events will speak of what they saw, everyone sees things differently, or focuses on different things when they see something happen. But that's sort of my point. The bible may have been inspired by God, I'm not entirely convinced by that, but it wasn't written by God, therefore it is not the actual "word of God" but the word of man.

You stated that you believe in the bible because so many other religions base their beliefs on the bible, but what if they're all wrong?

I will not stop believing in God, no matter what anyone says, but my beliefs are based on things I've experienced, not read. The bible and organized religion did not serve me well, in fact, I'm surprised that I still believe after everything I've experienced in that respect.

I do not begrudge anyone their right to religion or their belief, but I just wonder how so many people can base their beliefs on a book written by man, and worship in a church built by man, to be preached to by man.

If the bible is to be believed then Jesus preached on the streets, to anyone who was willing to listen, poor, rich, sick, healthy, criminals, prostitutes, everyone. Why, as human beings, have we built temples to worship him in? If Jesus was his son, which I do believe, then he had no such temple, he was but a poor carpenter. So why? When you go to Church, are you not hearing the word of man, spoken by man? Sorry, that's my belief, and I may be wrong, if I am, then hopefully I am correct that God is forgiving, kind and understanding, and will understand why I chose this path.

Thanks for answering my thread NoHelp, I consider you a friend, I hope that our differing views will not hamper that friendship. :)

You could always start by reading and seeing what fits into what you believe and what makes sense to you and take it from there if you want to. Then with things that do not make sense try and do a study on it or ask questions here.
I also do not believe a lot of what religions teach. I even believe some things that other religions believe but if I do not see it fitting in with the Bible I am more skeptical. I believe in the gap theory to explain the earth existing before the six day creation most Christians reject that teaching. Many Christians believe their religion is the ONLY way to heaven I believe God knows your heart and so he can 'save' people besides the ones that have 'the right' answer because there are many verses in the Bible that say things like he is the potter and we are the clay and he has mercy on whom he will have mercy. Is his arm so short he can not save? Also many who have 'the right' religion God says 'I never knew you' because their hearts are not pure.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

and in fact there are not as many contradictions as people wish to assume, most are assumed for misunderstanding or taking things out of context and/or merely using todays english translations.

In fact the bible completes itself, with the OT being a more historical nature and the NT being eye witness testomony of what has ahppened

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I admit that it's a well written book, and an entertaining read, but fact?

I went to a Catholic school, had the bible forced on me every single day, and yet I was told that I would go to hell because I wasn't Catholic. I could not receive communion on the occasions that we went to church as a school, I had to sit alone in the pews and be teased because I couldn't go up and receive a store bought wafer. My friends parents would preach to me, to "save my soul", they even called my parents to tell them that they were neglecting me because I wasn't Catholic.

After a few years of this I did change, but not in their favor, I grew a back bone and stood up for myself. When I was told I'd go to hell, I told them to save me a place by the fire. Whenever the school was going to Church, I refused to go, or wouldn't get off the bus, what was the point? There are many things like this that happened, some worse than the above, is it any wonder that I don't believe in organized religion, the kindness of Christians? I'm not saying that Christians are bad people, please don't take it that way.

The bible and Christianity go hand in hand. Every time I hear someone quote the bible and say it is the word of God, I cringe. If Christians want to base their faith on the bible, why can't they at least state that it is not in fact the "word of God" but stories that were told by man.

Isn't it possible that my faith is enough? I believe with absolutely no proof whatsoever, no bible, no religion, just my faith alone. I am fallible, I sin daily, as does everyone else that I know of, but I do believe in the same God as all of you, why?

I do appreciate that you posted Fr_Chuck, and I do respect your right to believe, not trying to prove I'm right, or that you're wrong.

One more question. If Christians didn't have the bible, would they still believe, and why?

One thing that is best is to separate religion from God and the Bible and seek the answers with an open mind and heart. People get too caught up in what the Church religion says and try to adjust the truth to their belief and have no idea what God really is telling us.

I do agree NoHelp.

I guess I'm an anomaly, I believe in spite of the bible, does that make sense? ;)

All I know for sure is that I will always believe in God. My parents raised me well, raised me to think for myself. I do have a bible, my Mother's bible, and I do treasure it, not because of the words written inside, but because it was hers, given to her by her mother, and her mothers mother, etc. It's very old, published in the 1800's.

Obviously I do not read the bible to my kids, nor do I take them to Church, but they both believe in God. I don't discuss God with them often, only when they ask questions about God, but somehow, some way, they believe.

I asked my daughter the other day, "Who made you so pretty?", she said, "God did". My response, "I think Mommy and Daddy had a hand in it". ;)

The point is, I do believe. Why, when I discuss God with others, are they so adamant that I believe in the Bible? Why isn't belief enough? I'm not saying that anyone on this thread has done that, but others have.

What is it about the Bible that is so important with respect to belief? Why can't someone believe in one and not the other?

I don't really expect an answer to that, it's a hard question to answer, but I do often wonder about it, and so far no one has ever given me a good reason why.

I think a lot of it is faith and seeing God in the Bible which I feel I have a bit of both otherwise I am sure I would be just like you are in questioning it.
Some of the things I have studied in the Bible are just too awesome for me to say that the Bible can't be right. Some things I really don't understand like why God would come up with a plan for Jesus to die for our sins since I do not see death as a good answer for anything yet I can see it looking at it in a different way than from a cruel type perspective which people that want to justify not believing often say.

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some of the things I have studied in the Bible are just too awesome for me to say that the Bible can't be right.

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And for me they are too awesome to believe they are right.

As for Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, that is one thing I do believe in, because of my parents. Yes, they go it from the bible, but they told me in their own words, and to me it did make sense, so I guess I have to say that I do believe in that part or that story, at least partially.

Other stories that I was told as a child, that probably aren't true, and aren't in the bible, but that I hold dear. The story of the spider with the cross on it's back and how it came to get that mark, if you're interested in hearing it I'd love to tell it. Total fiction, but still a story I love and share with my kids.

My beliefs are based on events that happened in my life, and in my parents life, things I have experienced that have no other explanation, in my opinion, but God.

I do have to say that nothing will ever convince me to follow the bible or to go to Church. I am happy with my life and my beliefs, just curious about others beliefs and why they believe what they do.

Thanks for answering my Thread NoHelp. :)

Oops I meant can't be wrong.
I understand what you are saying because some things I can't rationalize myself but then I know my understanding is limited and I have to go by faith.

And I choose to go by faith alone, without accepting the bible at all. :)

I guess in the end it really doesn't matter what someone believes, it's whether they are a good person that matters, in the end that's all we will be judged on right?

Big hug to you NoHelp, because I know you're a good person, and I'm trying every day to be better than I am right now, got some work ahead of me. ;)

It is more than being a good person. God is going to tell a lot of 'religious' people that he never knew them because their heart was not right. Sort of like people who glorify themselves and their works rather than giving the credit to God.

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God is going to tell a lot of 'religious' people that he never knew them because their heart was not right.

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Let me see if I am understanding what you are saying correctly.

I used to work for someone who was an extreme Christian, he's a member of the Pentecostal Religion, and also my Dad's boss for 25 years. He opened another shop and I was hired as a secretary. I've know this man since I was 5 years old, played with his two sons at Company Christmas party's etc.

Anyway, once I started to work for him he insisted on talking about religion with me, about trying to get me to convert to his way of thinking. I politely explained that I was not interested and didn't wish to discuss this in the work place.

A few months after I started working there one of our neighbors lost their 18 year old son in a tragic car accident. I used to babysit this boy and his sister, they had been our neighbors since I was 9 years old. I asked my boss for the morning off so that I could attend the funeral. I was refused. I asked how a religious man such as himself could deny me a few hours off in order to go to a funeral. He said that there was a delivery coming in, and even though he would be at the office, he wanted me to handle it. This didn't sit well with me, and I told him that he would have to handle the delivery because I intended to pay my respects to the family, to mourn with them. He laughed, said, do you honestly think it will make one bit of difference if you are there? It won't bring their son back, they probably won't even notice your absence. I told him that what he said was true, it probably wouldn't make a difference to them, but it would to me. I asked how he could be so unkind and uncaring, isn't that against his religion? He said this, and I remember it clearly to this day. "I do what I want, say what I want, crush anyone who stands in the way of what I want, as long as I go home at the end of the day and pray for forgiveness, then it doesn't matter, doesn't count".

Another reason for me not to follow organized religion, and proof that not all religious people are pure of heart.

Yeah that is basically one of the types of 'religious' people I mean. They believe their good works or their prayers for forgiveness can buy their way into heaven rather than approaching God in a humble faith like way that is pleasing to him.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

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Just FYI: historically Christians have based their beliefs on the GOSPEL... which is both Scripture and the Tradition of the Church.

Only since the Reformation have there been Protestant groups which look to the bible alone as the sole source of divine revelation, but that was not the case for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

"But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me."
-Saint Augustine

Peace be with you.

I would not believe in the Gospel IF God had not moved me.

And wasn't Gospel, aka the New Testament, also written by Man?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

And wasn't Gospel, aka the New Testament, also written by Man?

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Written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... and it's also important to remember that the books that went into the Bible had to be decided upon by men (Catholic Church) as well.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I admit that it's a well written book, and an entertaining read, but fact?

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I think, because of your early experiences, you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Your gripes are with the Church and especially with "well-meaning" members, and not with the Bible (that people take and run with).

Is it completely factual? What does that mean? Did things happen exactly as the Bible said? Some people think so, but others don't.

Even if one doesn't "believe in" the Bible, there are ways to appreciate it--its prose and poetry, its stories of failure and forgiveness, its ideas on how to treat others.*

The Bible has in all sorts of ways (good as well as bad) affected the lives of millions of people. Certainly if the Bible is "just a book," that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe learning to *appreciate the Bible is a place to start now that you're a grownup with some life experiences behind you and a much more analytical and commonsensical way of thinking.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

He said this, and I remember it clearly to this day. "I do what I want, say what I want, crush anyone who stands in the way of what I want, as long as I go home at the end of the day and pray for forgiveness, then it doesn't matter, doesn't count".

Another reason for me not to follow organized religion, and proof that not all religious people are pure of heart.

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You do realize that he is the worst possible representative of organized religion. You know, and I know, he has "it" all wrong. Please don't use him as your standard and as your reason for deep-sixing the Bible.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... and it's also important to remember that the books that went into the Bible had to be decided upon by men (Catholic Church) as well.

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And mentioning the Catholic Church to me will get you where? No where.

As for Gospel being written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, well, sorry, but there's no proof of that.

Also, who died and decided the Catholic Church reigned supreme? I don't think so.

Sorry, but if you read any of my other posts, the sure fire way to get me to turn a deaf ear, is to preach to me. As for the Catholic Church, if that is your belief, you have a right to it, but I will never be a part of any religious group, and if I had to pick one tomorrow, gun to my head, the Catholic Church would be the last on my list.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You do realize that he is the worst possible representative of organized religion. You know, and I know, he has "it" all wrong. Please don't use him as your standard and as your reason for deep-sixing the Bible.

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No, he wasn't the reason, or not the only one. I just cannot accept a book that was written by man to be "the word of God".

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

No, he wasn't the reason, or not the only one. I just cannot accept a book that was written by man to be "the word of God".

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So, do you know why it is called the Word of God?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I think, because of your early experiences, you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Your gripes are with the Church and especially with "well-meaning" members, and not with the Bible (that people take and run with).

Is it completely factual? What does that mean? Did things happen exactly as the Bible said? Some people think so, but others don't.

Even if one doesn't "believe in" the Bible, there are ways to appreciate it--its prose and poetry, its stories of failure and forgiveness, its ideas on how to treat others.*

The Bible has in all sorts of ways (good as well as bad) affected the lives of millions of people. Certainly if the Bible is "just a book," that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe learning to *appreciate the Bible is a place to start now that you're a grownup with some life experiences behind you and a much more analytical and commonsensical way of thinking.

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Oh, it's not a bad book, I agree, and some of the stories in it are inspirational and beautiful, I agree. But, to base all my belief on a man written book, no, I won't do that.

Yes, I do have gripes with the Church, I admit that, but not without reason. Church is yet another example of mans views, mans way, based on the bible, written by man, held in a building, built by man, paid for by the people that follow that religion, that believe in that one man, priest, pastor, what have you.

The Church speaks of hell, fire and brimstone. Do as I say or burn in hell. Follow these man written rules, do not disobey, or there will be hell to pay.

That's not my cup of tea.

Why must the Church preach hell and damnation, why must the bible state what will happen if you don't obey? Why? To scare you into accepting this written work as the "word of God".

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared. If I die tomorrow I will not be afraid, because I know, in my heart, that God knows who and what I am, even if I don't go to Church.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm just trying to explain my reasoning. I don't expect you to agree, and I do respect your right to disagree.

Peace.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared. If I die tomorrow I will not be afraid, because I know, in my heart, that God knows who and what I am, even if I don't go to Church.

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Amen!

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Why must the Church preach hell and damnation, why must the bible state what will happen if you don't obey? Why? To scare you into accepting this written work as the "word of God".

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared.

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Actually, you have it right. The Bible is hope and the message is really one of love, God's love for us and ours for him in return and then his love reflecting off us onto others. But that's too easy for people to see and understand. People want to have to work hard to get saved and be scared and to scare others. Wish I knew why. The real deal is so much nicer.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Actually, you have it right. The Bible is hope and the message is really one of love, God's love for us and ours for him in return and then his love reflecting off us onto others. But that's too easy for people to see and understand. People want to have to work hard to get saved and be scared and to scare others. Wish I knew why. The real deal is so much nicer.

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I agree Wondergirl.

God has blessed us to be a blessing to others.

DAH yeah that is what she believes!
As Altenweg asked Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? That was specifically asked in her question.

SO WHY DO you insist on constantly badgering Christians with ''That is what you believe'' when it is clear to everybody concerned (EXCEPT apparently YOU) by pointing out ''that is what you believe"... DUH yeah that is what she believes along with many others. It is not like Wondergirl is claiming she is speaking for you or anybody else so your point why you point it out is invalid!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nohelp "I believe" you deserve a greenie:D
"I believe" that this post should not be Cred critiquing the members on how they speak but about altys question.

I'm with you Alty I can't see how people can follow a book that was written by men, I feel that some men are sometimes so full of greed and self perseveration they would fail to think of society as a whole and do what's best for them.

I can't believe how some parts of the bible and other religions have so little respect for women... I can't get past that part, so I could never attend church or go by a bible that does not see women as equals.
I do feel like the church and bible makes some people better for it, I think peoples belief in the bible and its teachings have turned them from evil so I would never say that the bible is a bad thing, just not for me.
I wish I could have believed "the word" my life would have been a lot easier, in the I'm sure I would have closer ties with my family had I gone down the religious path they went, maybe not who knows.
Anyway that's my view on the bible.

I agree about the way women were treated back then but that is one of the things that is recorded history and not necessarily the way God wanted men to treat women. The Bible says for men to treat women with respect and women submit to men as men are to submit to God. MAN has taken the submission out of context to mean to rule over the woman as subservient but that was never how God meant it.
Unfortunately evil men still want to distort the Bible to make the male dominant other races, women and anybody they can but God is not in that it is evil man twisting God into his own image.

P.S. I don't think there is anything wrong with Alty's post ;) or anybody's reply... everything WAS going along well with no misunderstandings.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

It doesn't show that I am incapable or unwilling to accept anything other than YOUR insistence of prefacing religious beliefs with 'I believe....'

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Incorrect : it shows precisely that you are unwilling to accept the reality that whatever statement one makes based on what one believes can only be accepted as factual when valid OSE has been provided for that .

:D

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NO it does not... this is the religious discussion board so anything religious that is stated IS belief. This is not the science board or even the prove it board.
The question was why do you believe? Alty did NOT ask for anything FACTUAL so your argument here is TOTALLY irrelevant!!
You are reading way too much into stuff if you want to 'accuse' me that I am unwilling to accept reality.

I think the majority of us are able to sort and distinguish belief from fact
I am sorry that you have a problem in making the distinction and HAVE to have it pointed out to you.

I can not believe that YOU accuse me of being the one to make the fuss over it when countless posts by you always YOU making the fuss of 'That is your belief' and to top it all off I don't even reply to the majority of the posts you fuss at Sassy and others. SO DO not even attempt to throw this on me being the one making the fuss about it.
I can even go through all your replies and come up with a good 200 posts by you making the fuss where I never even commented on!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Your very own posts prove that you make the fuss because they all tend to go on over 20 some pages back and forth and not getting anywhere other than nitpicking others.

When are you going to reply to the OP topic?

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Not so. This is indeed the religious discussion board. But not each statement made here is based on belief. My statements for sure are not.

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The OP asked for our beliefs. We are giving them to her. Thus, stating the obvious is not necessary anytime someone posts. "Belief" is implicit in each response; it doesn't have to be explicit. Even your comments, John, are based on your beliefs, so please speak to the question on the table.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I will never be a part of any religious group, and if I had to pick one tomorrow, gun to my head, the Catholic Church would be the last on my list.

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Why don't you tell us how you really feel about the Catholic Church, Alty? LMAO!

I'm following this thread with interest, but haven't time to post anything substantial right now, except to say that I can empathize with where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

The point is, I do believe. Why, when I discuss God with others, are they so adamant that I believe in the Bible? Why isn't belief enough? I'm not saying that anyone on this thread has done that, but others have.

What is it about the Bible that is so important with respect to belief? Why can't someone believe in one and not the other?

I don't really expect an answer to that, it's a hard question to answer, but I do often wonder about it, and so far no one has ever given me a good reason why.

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My answer to your queries is almost the same as I always give on religious discussions regarding the different religions (especially the monotheistic religions).

It was not different religions revealed at different times,but the same beliefs of monotheism and the golden rules(or commandments).

It has been the same Almighty sending Messengers and Messages to all humanity,but each time a book is revealed(and yes I do believe in the original Bible being the word of the Almighty,and I also believe in the original Torah being revealed by the Almighty).

-each time revelations are sent, a group of people believes,some turn their backs to the revelation,which would mean there will be at least two groups of people (or could even become two different religions).
And then there will be those who form their own ideas from the revelation and this in turn may become a new religion,that makes it three different religion at least per revelation.
Not to mention those who break away from all of these groups and form their own beliefs mixed/not mixed with older beliefs before the revelation of that time(maybe follow the revelations of ages past).

And I do believe that each time a chosen Messenger is sent,some follow him or they reject him or they start worshipping him instead of the One Almighty.
Now years since the revelation, some are still following the original,while others have made changes as per their own thoughts,while others are lost in between,some reject all of these and form their own opinions on how life is to be lived.

The best thing is to do a comparison of all three monotheistic faiths books(as you already do believe in an Almighty),where you will be able to find the similarities and differences.
You may see what I said about the revelations from being the same source when you see the similarities in the books and the commands too.

I want to say that I welcome all opinions and statements, all.

I value every one of your views and beliefs, no matter what they are.

Let's keep this conversation friendly, okay?

I do wish to restate that I am not, by definition, a Christian, although I do value your input to my question, I do not follow a Christian faith. I've been there, done that, read "the book". ;)

I have read every post, and I do thank you for responding to me.

I still do not understand why so many people put so much stock in the bible. Yes, it is a good book, has lots of interesting and inspiring stories. It also has allot of hell, fire and brimstone, punishment, you better obey or else. Not for me, and I really don't believe that God (at least not the God I believe in) would ever dish out the punishment that is spoken of in the bible.

I believe in a God that allows free will, a God that forgives us our sins as long as we really repent of those sins. A God that is like a parent, will let us make mistakes, learn, and move on. A God that does not step in when we make those mistakes, but gives us the intelligence to learn from them and grow.

Maybe I don't believe in the same God as all of you, there are so many differences between my beliefs and the beliefs of those that follow the bible and go to Church. So, if there is but one God, then who do I believe in? Is he the same God that Christians believe in? If so, then how can that be? I guess I am confused, but not about my beliefs so much as I am about others.

Let's try to remember when posting here, that we are all human beings, none of us are perfect. I am trying to respect that very human quality in others, ah yes, I have learned something, so let's try and be kind to each other. I truly believe that we can talk about our differences in a way that is respectable to everyone.

Okay?