In "other religion" there was a question on Noah's Ark.
In the end the topic changed into a debate on the size of the Ark versus the carrying capacity versus the number of all animals and plants that would have to be in the ark to survive the flood.

Tj3 (AKA Answerway's Toms 777) stated in response to Choux's post on the problems with the size of the ark : "Others used different assumptions and came up with a completely different answer".

How can anyone claim that the ark was big enough to contain all these animals in the required quantities and variations. Not even a ship double the size of the ark would be big enough!! Logical thinking and simple mathematics makes that clear beyond any doubt.

So where is the calculation that the Ark was big enough to provide sufficient space for all in it for such a long time?
Or can we accept the Biblical Noah's Ark story as just a copycat repeat of the Gilgamesh story?

You are asking for human wisdom to explain the things of God.

Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the Lord has not given you minds that understand, nor eyes that see, nor ears that hear!

2 Corinthians 3:14
But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

You are asking for human wisdom to explain the things of God.

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No I did not . More reading comprehension problems, I see !
All I asked was where the calculation is that the Ark was big enough to provide sufficient space for all in it for such a long time.
Or if can we accept the Biblical Noah's Ark story as just a copycat repeat of the 2000+ years older Gilgamesh story? No, nothing about "human wisdom" or "things of god"...

:rolleyes:

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So where is the calculation that the Ark was big enough to provide sufficient space for all in it for such a long time?

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Genesis 6
The Story of Noah
9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God. 10 Noah was the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 Now God saw that the earth had become corrupt and was filled with violence. 12 God observed all this corruption in the world, for everyone on earth was corrupt. 13 So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth!

14 “Build a large boat[c] from cypress wood[d] and waterproof it with tar, inside and out. Then construct decks and stalls throughout its interior. 15 Make the boat 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.[e] 16 Leave an 18-inch opening[f] below the roof all the way around the boat. Put the door on the side, and build three decks inside the boat—lower, middle, and upper.

17 “Look! I am about to cover the earth with a flood that will destroy every living thing that breathes. Everything on earth will die. 18 But I will confirm my covenant with you. So enter the boat—you and your wife and your sons and their wives. 19 Bring a pair of every kind of animal—a male and a female—into the boat with you to keep them alive during the flood. 20 Pairs of every kind of bird, and every kind of animal, and every kind of small animal that scurries along the ground, will come to you to be kept alive. 21 And be sure to take on board enough food for your family and for all the animals.”

22 So Noah did everything exactly as God had commanded him.

savedsinner7 : and THAT is your calculation that the Ark was big enough to provide sufficient space for all in it for such a long time.

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

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No. It is not my calculation. It is God's.

savedsinner7 : Why should it be God's? That is what you BELIEVE!!
God's existence is not a fact. God's existence is based on belief !

:rolleyes:

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Were there penguins on the Ark? Platypi? Polar bears? Kangaroos? Bison?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Were there penguins on the Ark? Platypi? Polar bears? Kangaroos? Bisons?

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Why don't you tell me? And how many of them were there, and why? And if so : what did they eat?

:rolleyes:

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I asked first.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

savedsinner7 : Why should it be God's? That is what you BELIEVE !!!
God's existence is not a fact. God's existence is based on belief !

:rolleyes:

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The fact that you do not believe does not negate God's existence.

Wondergirl : I have no idea, reason to ask you for your views.
The point with the ark is that even two arks would have been too small to allow for all animals pairs and other multiples to stand, eat, and sleep there.

Let's see : penguins and ice bear pairs could survive on ice/water. For the Platypus there was nothing to eat during the flood. Kangaroos and Bisons need soil underneath. And I do not take the bizon and cow argument as being one species as valid.

So now give me your arguments ! But I'll only will see that tomorrow ! Cred going horizontal!!

:rolleyes:

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Huh? Why do you think I am against you, Cred? And I wasn't asking just you. I threw the questions out on the table. If it was a worldwide flood, how did the animals I named get to the Ark and how were they fed? Noah didn't even know they existed.

My point is, there are far too many questions than answers about the Flood. Saying "God took care of it" doesn't work if the Flood story is to be believable and true.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

No. It is not my calculation. It is God's.

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Yep, and God's word is sufficient.

Others have done the calculations to confirm this - here is but one example:

http://www.amendez.com/Noahs%20Ark%2...rk-Handout.pdf

I note that those who oppose Christianity will typically make the claim that there is not enough room with no validation of that claim.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yep, and God's word is sufficient.

Others have done the calculations to confirm this - here is but one example:

http://www.amendez.com/Noahs%20Ark%2...rk-Handout.pdf

I note that those who oppose Christianity will typically make the claim that there is not enough room with no validation of that claim.

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That link doesn't speak to my questions. What about my questions?

Hmm..

Excellent graphic, Capuchin ! Says it all ! But... uhmm... were the dino's not extinct by that time ?
And another reason why you never should provide a box of matches to dino's ! :D

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If it was a worldwide flood, how did the animals I named get to the Ark and how were they fed? Noah didn't even know they existed.

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A good point, Wondergirl. HOW did all the animals that needed ground under their feet get to the Ark ?
As to penguins on the Ark? They could swim and feed without land also, though 6 weeks+ is too long to continue. The same for polar bears. The same for the platypus. Kangaroos and bisons required solid soil. And I assume that same question applies to hundreds of thousands of other species also :

How did all these animals get to Noah from all over the world ? :confused:

:rolleyes: :p :D

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Excellent graphic, Capuchin ! Says it all ! But ... uhmm ... were the dino's not extinct by that time ?

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Of course not - the flood was only 1500 years after creation.

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

Of course not - the flood was only 1500 years after creation.

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Whoops : I stand corrected. How could I forget that ?

:D :D :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

Of course not - the flood was only 1500 years after creation.

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\\
Actually 1500 or so years after man was removed from Eden. In fact part of one issue, we do not know how many years or even 1000's of years Adam may have been in the Garden.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

\\
Actually 1500 or so years after man was removed from Eden. In fact part of one issue, we do not know how many years or even 1000's of years Adam may have been in the Garden.

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I stand corrected, but there was no death before then, right? So it's kind of a moot point when talking about the extinction of the dinos.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That link doesn't speak to my questions. What about my questions?

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Scripture answers your questions.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture answers your questions.

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Please list the verses that specifically answer my questions.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

In "other religion" there was a question on Noah's Ark.
In the end the topic changed into a debate on the size of the Ark versus the carrying capacity versus the number of all animals and plants that would have to be in the ark to survive the flood.

Tj3 (AKA Answerway's Toms 777) stated in response to Choux's post on the problems with the size of the ark : "Others used different assumptions and came up with a completely different answer".

How can anyone claim that the ark was big enough to contain all these animals in the required quantities and variations. Not even a ship double the size of the ark would be big enough !!! Logical thinking and simple mathematics makes that clear beyond any doubt.

So where is the calculation that the Ark was big enough to provide sufficient space for all in it for such a long time?
Or can we accept the Biblical Noah's Ark story as just a copycat repeat of the Gilgamesh story?

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Well, some will say it was only babies that were taken onto the Ark, to the point where Noah would have only had to carry a basket of eggs on board for some species. Also, the flood didn't have to include the entire Western hemisphere (that takes care of Australian marsupials, etc.). But that still leaves a few hundred million species to collect, food to take with, not to mention a whole lot of waste to clean up. But this isn't even the most problematic aspect to the story.

If the flood was indeed worldwide, then most plants and vegetation would have been destroyed. So not only is there the problem of what they ate on the Ark, but what did they eat AFTER they disembarked? Carnivores would need more animals. Herbivores, plants. Plants also tend to be kind of important to the delicate balance of the biosphere. So we might ask what they breathed as well as what they ate. And what about all that ocean salt that would now be mixed with fresh drinking water? All minor details that can easily be resolved I'm sure, by invoking the magical powers of God.

This of course, assumes that you're OK with every animal on the earth today, being directly descendant from those few on the Ark. This is perhaps, the most incredulous aspect to the story in its own right.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

the entire Western hemisphere (that takes care of Australian marsupials, etc.).

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Check your atlas. Australia is not in the Western Hemisphere.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Check your atlas. Australia is not in the Western Hemisphere.

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My mistake. Was thinking Western hemisphere and 'other continents' at the same time, and Western Hemisphere is what got typed. Oops!

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

My mistake. Was thinking Western hemisphere and 'other continents' at the same time, and Western Hemisphere is what got typed. Oops!

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Since this is in Religious Discussions, I'll forgive you (but DON'T let it happen again!! ).

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

This of course, assumes that you're ok with every animal on the earth today, being directly descendant from those few on the Ark.

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First of all Noah's Great Flood is a direct copy of the thousands of years older Gilgamesh flood story. So where was God's guidance when that story was copy-catted into the Bible? Can the claimed to exist "God" now also be accused of plagiarism ? If not : how can it be that Noah's story is the twin story of the much older Gilgamesh epic?

The Bible speaks of a worldwide flood, so all animals on earth were involved.
How did marsupials travel to the Ark, and - even more interesting - how did they return to Australia? Quantas Airlines?

As to the numbers of animals on the Ark : as per the biblical story all living animals today should be descendants from animals on the Ark. Not even several arks would have been capable of housing all these different species, specially for such a long time.

As to humans : how can our genes clearly indicate that modern humans descend from humans from all over the globe, if we can only descend from Noah's family, as all other humans should have drowned?

All these aspects together provide enough data to declare the entire Noah myth null and void.
But as always I am open to any objective supporting evidence for Noah's story...

But why is that never coming forward?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

First of all Noah's Great Flood is a direct copy of the thousands of years older Gilgamesh flood story.

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Really? Please validate that claim that Gilgamesh is "thousands of years older".

Epic is from around 2700 BC, Flood 2345 BC--hundreds of years, not thousands.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

As to humans : how can our genes clearly indicate that modern humans descend from humans from all over the globe, if we can only descend from Noah's family, as all other humans should have drowned?

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I never understood this. Surely there were other boats around. Why didn't anyone grab some veggies and hop in a boat?

Serious question... Can anyone familiar with the bible explain that? Or does the bible explain why no other person on earth could have hopped into a boat?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Epic is from around 2700 BC, Flood 2345 BC--hundreds of years, not thousands.

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Scholars surmise that a series of Sumerian legends and poems about the mythological hero-king Gilgamesh, who might have been a real ruler in the late Early Dynastic II period (ca. 27th century BC)[1], were gathered into a longer Akkadian poem long afterward, with the most complete version existing today preserved on twelve clay tablets in the library collection of the 7th century BC Assyrian king Ashurbanipal.
Source: Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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There is nothing definite about whether it is only a story, or when it occurred, but the story was recorded much later than 2700 BC according to scholars. This places the Gilgamesh story after the historic flood recorded in Genesis.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

the story was recorded much later than 2700 BC according to scholars.

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From allaboutarchaeology.org -
"The Epic of Gilgamesh dates to about 2700 BC and was originally written on 12 clay tablets in the cuneiform script of ancient Sumeria."

From bookrags.com (The Epic of Gilgamesh) --
"the ancient oral tales about Gilgamesh probably were first written down, in cuneiform, about 2500 B.C. by Sumerian scribes"

From book-of-thoth.com --
"The earliest Sumerian versions of the epic date from as early as the Third dynasty of Ur (2100 BC-2000 BC), or to about 400 years after the supposed reign of Gilgamesh, who is now thought to have been historical, following the discovery of artifacts definitively associated with Agga and Enmebaragesi of Kish, two other kings named in the stories."

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Originally Posted by Tj3

7th century BC Assyrian king Ashurbanipal.

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So? Why bold the date?

This has been, so far, an interesting topic.

With my personal beliefs aside, the answer has come down to...

It's God. We can't understand what God did.

Or...

It's just not possible?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

from allaboutarchaeology.org -
"The Epic of Gilgamesh dates to about 2700 BC and was originally written on 12 clay tablets in the cuneiform script of ancient Sumeria."

from bookrags.com (The Epic of Gilgamesh) --
"the ancient oral tales about Gilgamesh probably were first written down, in cuneiform, about 2500 B.C. by Sumerian scribes"

from book-of-thoth.com --
"The earliest Sumerian versions of the epic date from as early as the Third dynasty of Ur (2100 BC-2000 BC), or to about 400 years after the supposed reign of Gilgamesh, who is now thought to have been historical, following the discovery of artifacts definitively associated with Agga and Enmebaragesi of Kish, two other kings named in the stories."

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Note that there is a great deal of uncertainty about the dates, as indicated by the variance and the usage of words such as "probably". The earliest validated dates are later than the guesses, but even the guesses are after the date of the Biblical flood. The 26-27th century BC date refers to the timeframe in which the tale is set, not when it was written down. The point being is that the story was written down at best a few hundred years after the historic flood event record in scripture.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

... Can anyone familiar with the bible explain that? Or does the bible explain why no other person on earth could have hopped into a boat?

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I waited to see reactions. But as expected none seem to be forthcoming !
Now why would that be ?

:rolleyes:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I never understood this. Surely there were other boats around. Why didn't anyone grab some veggies and hop in a boat?

Serious question... Can anyone familiar with the bible explain that? Or does the bible explain why no other person on earth could have hopped into a boat?

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Okay - I personally thought that the answer was obvious, but here goes:

Gen 7:24
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.
NKJV

How many people do you know who have a boat ready to go which has 6 months of supplies aboard? And 6 months would be bare minimum since time would be required after the flood for fresh water lakes and ponds to form again, and for vegetation for food to grow again.

Think about it.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Okay - I personally thought that the answer was obvious, but here goes:

Gen 7:24
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.
NKJV

How many people do you know who have a boat ready to go which has 6 months of supplies aboard? And 6 months would be bare minimum since time would be required after the flood for fresh water lakes and ponds to form again, and for vegetation for food to grow again.

Think about it.

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People have survived longer than this stranded at sea. As to this:

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And 6 months would be bare minimum since time would be required after the flood for fresh water lakes and ponds to form again, and for vegetation for food to grow again.

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I've been asking this and no one has answered. How did Noah and the animals cope with this? Even they had enough room to store all this food on the boat, what they do when they got off the Ark until all the vegetation came back? And what did the carnivores eat, since the only animals saved were ones that were supposed to go on and reproduce again?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

People have survived longer than this stranded at sea.

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There is far more than just surviving at sea. Keep in mind that this was more than just a calm sea, or even a stormy sea. Water was coming up from underground, and from above, so much so that in days the whole earth was flooded. This was a catastrophic situation where most boats would be sunk in the first few hours, let alone 6 months.

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I've been asking this and no one has answered. How did Noah and the animals cope with this? Even they had enough room to store all this food on the boat, what they do when they got off the Ark until all the vegetation came back? And what did the carnivores eat, since the only animals saved were ones that were supposed to go on and reproduce again?

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Since we are not given a detailed list of what they stored for supplies, this will have to remain a matter of speculation. And to even attempt to answer the question, we would need to examine the dietary needs on a species by species basis. Some animals can eat a variety of items despite dietary preferences, perhaps others ate fish which could be caught in the open sea. Without a detailed study which could take years, the speculation on the answer will be as vague as the question.