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-   -   Once believed in God - but you no longer do? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=234297)

  • Jul 6, 2008, 07:01 AM
    Allheart
    Once believed in God - but you no longer do?
    Hi everyone,

    For those of you who once did believe in Our Heveanly Father, God, but no longer do, would it be okay if I asked you to share, why? What was the turning point?

    I ask this, as I am most curious and have often wondered why or what happened. Was it gradual?

    Please know, I do not judge, and quite honestly, as naïve as this may sound, I never realized there were people who did not believe in God, I just thought everyone did, and we all just practiced different faiths.

    I ask this to understand. I believe faith is an incredible gift and can never be taken away. It can be rejected, or hidden very deeply within you, but it is and always will be a gift and blessing given to you.

    Do I hope one day you reaccept the gift... yes I do with all my heart.

    I hope all of you don't mind me asking - but I truly am interested in how you got to where you are today, that you no longer believe in God.

    Thank you for your time and sharing.
  • Jul 6, 2008, 08:11 AM
    jillianleab
    When I was young I believed in god because I thought I was supposed to. As I got older and thought about it more, it never quite made sense to me. I remember being about six, and my grandmother would tell me to pray (she's quite religious) and I didn't know how or understand why I should. It just never felt "right". I got even older and realized I didn't have to believe in god, that not everyone did. Finally, it made sense.

    So for me it wasn't a traumatic experience, a hatred, a bad influence, etc. It just dawned upon me one day that it's possible god doesn't exist, and I thought, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense." I don't know if I'd say I stopped believing, because I don't think I ever really did in the first place.
  • Jul 6, 2008, 09:32 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    What was the turning point?

    As a small child I believed in God. Why not? My parents told me he existed. Why would I doubt if anything they told me was correct? But while growing from a child that accepts everything his parents are telling him as true to a young adult I developed the capacity to deduce that certain things you were told by your parents are not (or can not be) true. First victims were the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. Soon also God did not make much sense anymore. That feeling increased with age. It became so strong that on my 12' birthday I had a good talk with my parents, and told them that religion to me was an unproved assumption instead of the reality they thought it to be. So I asked them to be released from religious duties.
    Together we decided that I would go to church every Sunday for 6 months , and would during that period also follow religious training, and at the end of that period I was allowed to decide my position myself, without interference or pressure by anyone.
    I did these 6 months, and at the end I decided that religion had no value to me. Ever since I have been without any belief in God or any other supra-natural entity/entities.
    The teachers at religious training must have been glad with that, as I had the habit already than to question every item that was on the curriculum.

    I do visit churches when the situation asks for that. I was married in church (because my wife preferred it that way), I was present when my children were jointly baptized at the age of 11, 12, and 13 (as for them it was a celebration), and of course I also am present when family or friends are buried from the church (just to show my respect for the deceased). I even go to a church when there is a concert that I like. However : I am there as a clear Secular Humanist without any belief in God.

    ;)

    ·
  • Jul 6, 2008, 09:54 AM
    KalFour
    I'm from a catholic family, and was,(like the previous posters) simply told about God when I was small so didn't question it.
    My parents, though both believers, never really took it seriosuly, so I only went to church when I was visiting my extended family or on special occasions. At first it just seemed logical that the bible didn't need to be taken word for word, because it was written by men and men can make mistakes. Also that the message and general ideasof the bible mattered more than the specifics. But then I just thought about it more and more, and compared it with the beliefs of other people. Oer time, it just occurred to me that maybe God didn't exist.
    I decided that Santa wasn't real when I was about 6, I had already begun to question God by then.
    And as I've grown older, I've just seen more and more reasons to not believe in God. I don't think that it's impossible that He might exist... I've just come to the conclusion thaat it's very very unlikely.
    I also just never felt the need for faith. There is so much to be in awe of in the universe, existence itself is incredible, but I see no reason for God to be a necessary part of it.

    I know many people for whom faith is an enormous comfort, and I'm happy for them, but I've never felt like I'm missing out for lack of it.

    I'm not sure that I can honestly say I've lsotmy faith. It's difficult to say that I ahd it in the first place. I started to question it when I was very young. But whatever I had isn't there anymore, and I don't miss it.

    Kal
  • Jul 6, 2008, 11:52 AM
    Allheart
    I thank the 3 of you from the bottom of my heart, for sharing something so very personal.

    Please know, I do cherish your responses and the insight.

    It was so very kind of you to share.
  • Jul 6, 2008, 04:21 PM
    jillianleab
    You're welcome, Allheat; and thanks for asking! Many people assume if you are an atheist it's because you "hate god" or had some sort of bad experience or something. While I'm sure this is true for some, I don't think it is representative of the majority. Maybe this thread will enlighten some of those who think that way...
  • Jul 7, 2008, 12:30 AM
    Allheart
    Jill,

    Thanks for understanding. I was hoping not to be too instrusive. As I read so many post, it did leave me wondering and I will admit, I would say to myself, "Something had to happen".

    But in reading all of your post, it seems that is not the case.

    Thank you again.
  • Jul 7, 2008, 01:57 AM
    Moomin
    For me, I feel I have a definite faith and I believe in God! This said I don't go to church unless it is for an 'occasion' as Credendovidis said! I left the church around the age of 16, my mother raised me in the Salvation Army.
  • Jul 7, 2008, 06:26 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    .... I was hoping not to be too instrusive .... for sharing something so very personal ..... I hope all of you don't mind me asking ....

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I see no reason for all that reservation and apologizing.
    Just as you can be open to your Christian belief, others are just as well open to their lack of religious belief. I certainly do not see that as a shortcoming or something that should be reserved for a tête à tête on a cold winters night in front of a burning fireplace.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    I believe faith is an incredible gift

    Indeed you may believe. No problem. What you seem to forget is that your belief and faith in the Christian God is just as valid as belief and faith in the Pink Unicorn or in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    Or in the world view that there are no deities, or that deities are totally irrelevant. All these views and beliefs, and - where applicable - the faith therein is equally valid.

    I can also assure you that faith in any specific view can be taken away. Permanently. Or it can be replaced by another format of faith. Whatever suits that person. As a young child I had faith in God. Later that faith reduced to nil, and I am sure that will never change again. Nature provided me with sufficient self-confidence. I do not need the imaginary hand of a father figure to guide me through life.

    :)

    ·
  • Jul 7, 2008, 11:32 AM
    firmbeliever
    Very interesting thread Allheart.
  • Jul 8, 2008, 06:23 PM
    margog85
    Allheart-
    Just saw this thread, and I have only 5 minutes or so to add my two cents... but I figured I'd chime in.

    I was raised Catholic and my family was very religious. I began questioning the religion I was raised in when I was about 12. Nothing 'happened', except that I realized that not EVERYONE shared my religious beliefs, and with all the variation, I could potentially be dead wrong... especially since I knew nothing about any other religion except the one I was raised in. I started reading different things, but had a hard time wrapping my mind around a lot of it... I was so young.

    I eventually came to the conclusion that there was no god, that everything was just an accident. This was when I was about 13. I still went to church, never said anything to my parents- but everything just felt empty to me, and I just was going through the motions.

    I started searching again at 14 or so, and believed again after going on a retreat with the church my parents took me to. I was a pretty strong believer for about 5 or 6 years, believing that I had 'left' and 'came back' to religion, and that in having done so, I 'really believed it for myself, not because it was what I was raised in.' (Also, during the time that I believed, I was in and out of being depressed- and I guess I used religion sort of like a crutch. I'd have a rough year, and then the summer retreat would come around and 'everything would change'... until 3 or 4 months down the road, and then I held on again till the next one. I was on an emotional and spiritual roller coaster, and I think I stayed on it longer than necessary because I really liked the feeling I had of being 'saved' from myself by a god who loved me unconditionally- I think, though, that a lot of it was in my head... and that I looked for that huge experience of an unconditionally loving god because I so often was subject to the very conditional love of everyone else in my life, including my parents.)

    Once again, as I got older, I realized how little effort I had put into understanding other religions, and also realized that it was likely that I 'returned' to Catholicism, and that it felt 'right' to me, because it was what was most familiar. I struggled with a lot over those years... as you know from other threads, I was struggling a lot with my sexuality during that time... I cried and prayed and felt guilty and begged god to change me... couldn't understand why loving someone was wrong... couldn't understand why this thing that I felt in the core of who I was, this feeling that seemed to be part of who I was created as, was wrong... why god would make me in a way that I would be someone he despises...

    Over time, I again readjusted my religious beliefs... realized that no one religion has a handle on everything, and that if something just logically doesn't make sense to me, I don't need to force myself into conformity with a religion that I was raised in. That just because a group of people believe that something is wrong in god's eyes doesn't necessarily make it wrong, because somewhere there's another group that believe the same thing is right in god's eyes. I began to readjust the way I viewed things, and the way I viewed god.

    Right now, I'm still in a stage of questioning and searching. I'm not sure if there is anything bigger than me. I tend to think so, but again, I feel I can't be sure of that because that's what I was raised to believe... and that could influence what I think now. I know for sure that I'm not Catholic- and Christianity, while in some ways appealing to me, doesn't seem to be a fit either. For a while, I considered myself agnostic- and I suppose I still do now.

    I've been reading a lot about liberal quakerism, and that seems pretty interesting- also universal unitarianism... I guess I just don't know for sure if there is a god or not, but if there is, I doubt that any one religion has got it ALL right. I think that they all have something to offer and contribute to the search for whatever is out there beyond what we can see.

    I have a bumper sticker that says 'God is too big to fit into one religion'

    And I really believe that, if there is a god, that would be exactly on point.

    Hope that answers your question at least somewhat! Have a good night~!
  • Jul 8, 2008, 07:02 PM
    simoneaugie
    I was raised a Christian Scientist and attended nearly every Christian church I could find. I was curious and open. Through all those experiences, I came to the conclusion that Christians are unkind. There is an "us and them" mentality that pervades every aspect of their lives. Granted, there are a few kind ones, you for example.

    Life can be full of human unkindness. I choose not to associate myself with a religion that teaches it's believers to feel that they are more, or better, anything. We simply are. God accepts us as She made us, perfect. He/She made two sexes and every variation of those sexes, we can be no less. We are perfect with all of our gifts and flaws and mistakes.

    Yeah, I still believe in God. But if someone does not, or needs proof, fine by me. An unkind atheist is someone I won't hang out with though.
  • Jul 9, 2008, 01:46 AM
    Allheart
    Simon and Marg -

    Thank you. I am so touched more than I can say, by your openness and honesty. The deep soul searching for truth, has honestly a sincere beauty to me.

    Thank you so much for sharing.

    Marg, I am Catholic, and forgive me all for saying this, but I think you are right, I don't think any religion has it 100% correct. Anytime man is involved... uh oh, our hands can unintentionally get things wrong. That's why I respect and embrace all faiths and would never say they were wrong to believe what they do, as if God is a component of their faith, how can it be wrong. Continue your beautiful search and it is my belief that you truly are unconditionally loved. You truly do touch me Marg.

    Simon - I do so agree. To feel we are better then, or above anyone, to me goes against all God's love is about, and I too, just want to run from that. Your post truly did help me in reference to human unkindness. I know it exsist, it saddens me at times, and then I feel guilty for thinking it. Ahhhh good ole Catholic guilt. :).

    Bless the two of you for sharing, your posts as well as all the others, truly has touched me and mad me grateful to all for sharing.
  • Jul 9, 2008, 07:48 AM
    Allheart
    Since all of you were so kind and open, I thought it only right to share with you why I do believe in God. I couldn't list all the reasons, but will share just a couple of snapshots.

    My childhood was difficult, as many of ours may have been. I don't go into detail, as I find that within the difficulties are many immense blessings, and I never wish for pity. Nothing to be pitied about.

    With that said, God truly did carry me through my entire childhood and I knew within all by being that He was right there watching over me. He sheltered me from storms and protected me, and allowed me to smile in my heart and within my soul. He blessed me with 4 incredible sisters who we share a love and bond, that no words can ever express.
    He also blessed me with a husband, that never is there a day that I have a doubt, it was God's intentions to bring us together.

    I did go to Catholic school and my favorite subjects were Religion and English. I wasn't an academic achiever by no means, but I worked hard to get the grades I knew would keep me out of trouble with Mom.

    It did hurt my heart and soul that I saw some of the nuns favor greatly the students who did academically excel. I remained quiet and just watched and smiled. My parents were divorced, strike 2 for me. Not an honor student and from a divorced home. Back then, divorce was not common and was very frowned upon. Strike 3, I had to get a reduction in tuition because Mom couldn't afford the whole cost….and strike 4, I was on Student Government, without being an honor student, and yes, I was judged my the sisters (nuns). Not all, but some, actually most.

    During Student Government Office elections for my Senior year, a handful of students, who wanted their National Honor Society friend, to get President, did something very awful. They went to one of the sisters (nuns) and told them an awful untruth about me. As God is my witness, it was and is untrue. Anyway, the Guidance sister, called me down to her office, and laid into me, about this untruth. And told me my whole junior class told her it was true. I was horrified, speechless, my mind completely went blank. I can't even remember anything after I kept saying, “Sister that is so untrue, it's not true.”. After I felt I wasn't believed by her, I went to the Principles office, who was a priest, and knew my Mom oh to well, as she called him constantly when she drank, to complain about me and my sisters.

    I said Father, and I began my story, he turned to me, and said “I heard all about it” and then he chuckled. Chuckled!! I was horrified. All I kept thinking is, I will be dead tonight. My mother is going to paralyze me, and he is chuckling?? He said, he knew the results of the top 8, and I had nothing to worry about. That it was like an election in the real world, and not to worry. The other side is just going after the top vote getter. I said, “Father….my mother?? ”. He looked at me and said, “She will believe you”.

    Okay then Father, if you think my Mom will take my word over a sisters….then I will have faith too. I went home, Mom was on the couch reading the paper after a hard days work…I moved towards the step, and sat a couple of steps up from the bottom, in case I had to take off running. I said, “Mom….. something happened in school today…Sister ***** accused me of……smoking pot….( to this day I hate pot because of this incident, never tried it, and never will)….and Mom it's not true…Mom put her paper down, looked at me, and said, “ I believe you”….and started reading the paper again. Ooooooh the glee I had. I have to say, it was one of the most happiest days of my life. The next day, at school, my head was high, I smiled at the girl, who started it all…and never looked away. Oh, and the girl, who started it all? The Advanced placement student, National honor Society, the one adored by the nuns, was suspended about two weeks later, for disrupting a classroom. How I tried so hard not to be overjoyed by that, but I did contain it.

    And I was elected President of my school. I never retailed against those who tried to hurt me, but the damage they could have cost me, still horrifies me, as Mom was very strict. Being President, however, was a very hollow victory, and painfully achieved, as I then learned, that life can be unkind, but God will always keep us safe. Not because I got President, in a way that whole incident saddens me. To boot, after my year, my school made it mandatory that all those who hold office, must have honors. Of course, I don't agree with that.

    So, yes, I was judged, even by those of my own faith. But of course I instantly forgave them all, as they are only human. And it was not all the sisters, and I have had many more beautiful, wonderful learning life experiences from sisters, much more positive then negative.

    This may seem like a trivial reason why my faith is so strong, and it's not actually a reason, but just one event, I share with you, to let you know the strength that God does employ in my life.

    How hard it is to turn the other cheek, and sometimes the cost are painful, but in doing so, honestly the rewards are great.

    God has been so good and is so good, and I just wanted to share this precious gift with all of you.

    Our road will at times never be easy, choices hard to make, confusion and the like, but God has promised to never leave our side, we just have to leave room for Him.

    Thank you for letting me share with all of you, something that was a painful event in my life, as I could not believe people could be so unkind, and the hurt that I still carry does remain, as they have no idea how their untruths could have truly caused me great harm, by their was God's loving arms to protect me.

    May peace and joy be with all of you always.
  • Jul 9, 2008, 08:28 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    May peace and joy be with all of you always.

    Thank you Allheart !

    You seem to be a very nice and tolerant theist, one without all that hatred and intolerance so many "christians" unfortunately display here.

    I wish that you also will always be surrounded by peace and joy !

    :)

    ·
  • Jul 16, 2008, 07:32 AM
    shw3nn
    I have to tell you that it is very difficult to answer these questions honestly without being incredibly offensive to people who do believe. Below is my honest answer. This is exactly how I feel. I guarantee it will sound disrespectful and heretical. I give you fair warning. You don't have to read it.






    I have a hard time really convincing myself I ever did believe in God. I have memories of praying and that's all I'm really going on. I feel the same way about Santa Claus. I remember writing lists for him so I must have believed he existed at some point. I remember putting a tooth under my pillow but I have no real memory of actually thinking there was a fairy about to visit me. From where I am know, I can't understand how I every felt convinced of the veracity of such ridiculous stories. I don't know if I was just playing along or if I really bought it.

    I honestly have no memory of coming to the conclusion that I did not believe there existed Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or God.

    I do have a vivid childhood memory of realizing what death was. I cried all day. I couldn't have been too convinced of the idea of heaven for that to have hit me as hard as it did. So, maybe I never did really believe it.
  • Jul 16, 2008, 09:07 AM
    lobrobster
    I lost my faith in God and religion around the age of 19. Actually, I had probably lost my faith in religion (I was raised Catholic), before that when I realized there were all these other religions and I had no good reason to think my religion just happened to be the right one.

    The REAL turning point came when a friend of the family was visiting. He was my parent's age, but I really liked and respected him. He made an off hand comment about God that shocked me. It was obvious he didn't believe in God. I was shocked, because I never questioned the existence of God before. It never even occurred to me that God wasn't real.

    Later, I forced myself to think about it. This was difficult to do, because it felt like I was blaspheming. But I asked myself exactly why I believed in God. What REAL evidence did I have there was even a god? Slowly but surely, I realized I had no good answer. In all the times I had been praying to God, did He ever talk back to me? -- NO. Had I ever seen a God?-- No. I believed simply because I was told it was true ever since I was a little kid, not unlike why I believed in Santa Clause and the tooth fairy. The difference was, no one ever debunked the God story for me when I got older.

    I can't even begin to explain the utter shock that washed over me. In an instant, my entire world view changed! The whole universe was all of a sudden different! I was at once scared, and depressed. But then a wonderful sense of calm came over me. For the first time everything started making sense! So that's why 12 year old kids sometimes died horrible deaths from cancer! That's why war, disease, and famine run rampant in the world! That's why terrible things happen to good people! Because THERE IS NO GOD watching over us! It was all one big fairy tale dummy! (I'm talking to myself here). All these years I had been talking to an imaginary friend before I went to bed!

    I think I literally broke down and cried as I thought about what this meant. My grandma wasn't really in heaven. And I wasn't really going to live forever in some fantasy place after I died either. I tried to adjust to this new world without a god. But like I said, eventually a sense of calm enlightenment washed over me. I realized it is much better to view reality as it really is, than to live in some fantasy world. I've never looked back.

    Of course, over time my skepticism has been re-enforced more and more as I have taken the time to delve into the history of gods and religions. My friend's story is even more intense. Maybe I'll post that later.
  • Jul 16, 2008, 09:23 AM
    lobrobster
    Here's my friend's story:

    4 of us attended a biology lecture together in college. Throughout the lecture, the professor made a couple of snide comments about intelligent design and Creationism. Half way through the lecture, I looked over to my friend and saw that her head was down. She was shaking and I realized she was crying! I asked her what was wrong and she just shook her head. I let it go, but it was obvious she was very distressed. I asked her again, and this time she looked up and said, " I can't believe I was this stupid!" and ran out of the auditorium!

    I had no idea what she was talking about and just sat there stunned for a while. I decided to follow her and when I caught up she was sitting on a bench in the lobby crying hysterically now. I sat next to her. She turned to me and barely audible through her tears I heard her say, "It was all a lie!". I immediately knew what had happened. Something the professor said in his lecture clicked and for the first time she realized there wasn't a God. It was very intense. Like myself when I was 19, it never even dawned on her that there couldn't be a god. It was very traumatic and I felt so bad for her. It goes to show what happens when you're brainwashed from childhood to believe something.

    In her case, she was pissed! She was mad at everyone who ever lied to her (even though they didn't know they were lying). Her parents, her church, etc. It took her a while to get over it, but now she is one of the most well adjusted people I know.
  • Jul 16, 2008, 12:57 PM
    sassyT
    [
    Quote:

    QUOTE=lobrobster]Here's my friend's story:

    4 of us attended a biology lecture together in college. Throughout the lecture, the professor made a couple of snide comments about intelligent design and Creationism. Half way through the lecture, I looked over to my friend and saw that her head was down. She was shaking and I realized she was crying! I asked her what was wrong and she just shook her head. I let it go, but it was obvious she was very distressed. I asked her again, and this time she looked up and said, " I can't believe I was this stupid!" and ran out of the auditorium!
    This is exactly what I am talking about lobroster! Science is no longer about discovery of reality, it has descended into a bitter quabbled between creationists and evolutionists instead of looking for truth many scientists now just have an agenda. Thousands of scientists choose to ignore the evidence they encounter in the own field which proves that chance and mutations can never explain the marvelous design and biological complexity that life displays.
    Professor LT More with University of Cincinati spoke of his "faith" in evolution when he acknowledged the conflict between personal belief and scientific evidence and I quote "our faith in the doctrine of evolution depends upon our reluctance to accept the anagonistic doctrine of special creation."
    This is what so called science has come to...





    [QUOTE]I had no idea what she was talking about and just sat there stunned for a while. I decided to follow her and when I caught up she was sitting on a bench in the lobby crying hysterically now. I sat next to her. She turned to me and barely audible through her tears I heard her say, "It was all a lie!". I immediately knew what had happened. Something the professor said in his lecture clicked and for the first time she realized there wasn't a God. It was very intense. Like myself when I was 19, it never even dawned on her that there couldn't be a god. %
  • Jul 16, 2008, 03:13 PM
    lobrobster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    [

    this is exactly what i am talking about lobroster!

    Well, I have to give you that. But the reason is because Creationists are trying to introduce non-evidence teaching in the schools. I agree with you. ID should not even be brought up by teachers. Evolution should have NOTHING to say about whether there is a god or not. However, it does have something to say about whether Creationism is correct. I agree, everyone feels threatened by the other and it's a problem.
  • Jul 17, 2008, 01:32 AM
    WVHiflyer
    I suppose I believed in a god once, but it was more because everyone I knew did, the society I grew up in did (northern edge of 'Bible Belt'). My first turns away were because I saw how corrupt and self-serving organized religions are. My last visit to a service was when the minister was preaching against Communism instead of giving a Scriptural sermon or talk.

    I found that those who most loudly proclaimed their faith, were those who seemed most to ignore their own teachings. They were judgemental and bigoted and self-righteous. But while my dimming view of religion had a part to play, it was only to make me question more. The more I learned about how Nature is and works, the less need I had for a divinity or supernatural entity to explain it. Eventually, I realized that I couldn't believe at all in such a being or force.

    Some philosopher on this subject noted that most atheists seem to become that way gradually, while those who become believers generally do so because of a single event. Wonder why?



    -
  • Jul 17, 2008, 01:37 AM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    this is exactly what i am talking about lobroster! Science is no longer about discovery of reality, it has descended into a bitter quabbled between creationists and evolutionists instead of looking for truth many scientists now just have an agenda.


    Sassy, don't start here. It would be rude to allheart. Besides, scientists are not the ones who "descended into a bitter quabbled" <sic> They simply started to fight back against anti-scientists who wanted to inject the supernatural into science. (And yes, I mean Creationists, including IDers who want their non-science to be taught in public schools' science classes. Those views don't belong there.)



    -
  • Jul 17, 2008, 08:45 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    Sassy, don't start here. It would be rude to allheart. Besides, scientists are not the ones who "descended into a bitter quabbled" <sic> They simply started to fight back against anti-scientists ?? (correction anti-DARWINISM) not science who wanted to inject the supernatural into science. (And yes, I mean Creationists, including IDers who want their non-science to be taught in public schools' science classes. Those views don't belong there.)



    -


    Again, I MACRO Evolution not Science. The essence of the scientific method is measurement, observation and repeatability. Neither Creation nor Evolution are scientific in this sense. Neither one can be tested, for the simple reason that we cannot repeat history. The origin of the universe, life and mankind all took place in the past and cannot be studied or repeated in the laboratory. No one, in all human history has ever observed macro evolution taking place anywhere not even in the fossil record or bacteria.
    Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation.. both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of 100% irrefutable proof.
    You keep insisting macro evolution is fact and it is science, that is your belief, the realityis macro evolution is a theory on origins that has no evidence. A myth if you like.

    That is all I will say just to correct you.. I will not get off subject on this thred. ;)
  • Jul 18, 2008, 03:55 AM
    KalFour
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    Again, I MACRO Evolution not Science. The essence of the scientific method is measurement, observation and repeatability. Neither Creation nor Evolution are scientific in this sense. Neither one can be tested, for the simple reason that we cannot repeat history. The origin of the universe, life and mankind all took place in the past and cannot be studied or repeated in the laboratory. No one, in all human history has ever observed macro evolution taking place anywhere not even in the fossil record or bacteria.
    Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation..both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of 100% irrefutable proof.
    You keep insisting macro evolution is fact and it is science, that is your belief, the realityis macro evolution is a theory on origins that has no evidence. A myth if you like.

    that is all i will say just to correct you.. i will not get off subject on this thred. ;)

    Ok... despite the fact that this is derailing the topic...

    Evolution is pretty hard to argue against. It is CLEARLY visible in day to day life... we can't repeat history, but we CAN and have been able to observe very distinct changes in species that have brief lifespans. It doesn't take long to get through a few dozen generations of mice or moths.

    Despite that, the Bible says that man was created in God's image, so according to the Bible, PEOPLE don't evolve... but everything else can. There's no way to definitively prove that people evolved from apes nor disprove it. But evolution definitely happens.

    And as far as I'm concerned, the evolution argument is completely irrelevant in discussions about faith.

    Right... let's get this train back on track.
  • Jul 18, 2008, 05:34 AM
    ordinaryguy
    It isn't that I stopped believing in God, it's that I came to feel that belief itself is not as important as I used to think it was. It's OK to just accept that there are ineffable mysteries that don't need to be "solved". To treat a mystery as a puzzle is to misunderstand its nature.
  • Jul 18, 2008, 07:48 AM
    sassyT
    [QUOTE]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KalFour
    Ok... despite the fact that this is derailing the topic...

    Evolution is pretty hard to argue against. It is CLEARLY visible in day to day life... we can't repeat history, but we CAN and have been able to observe very distinct changes in species that have brief lifespans. It doesn't take long to get through a few dozen generations of mice or moths.

    Please don't confuse Micro and Macro evolution. Of course MICRO evolution is an irrefutable fact. Changes within a Genus has been observed and is a fact. I have no problems with believing animals of different species such as the wolf, coyote, and fox all may have shared a common canine ancestor (microevolution), but the line gets drawn when Darwinists insist that these species also share a common ancestor with dolphins or fruit flies or even palm trees.. lol where is the evidence for that?

    Quote:

    Despite that, the Bible says that man was created in God's image, so according to the Bible, PEOPLE don't evolve... but everything else can. There's no way to definitively prove that people evolved from apes nor disprove it. But evolution definitely happens.
    That is not true no where in the bible does it say man does not evolve. Man's SPIRIT was made in God's image not his body. Humans all share a common HUMAN anscestor (not an ape like creature) so man has obviously micro evolved to adapt to different environments.
    Micro evolution is consistent with the Bible because according to the Genesis model of origins, God created not each individual species, but the wider genus to which each species belongs. Within each genus He provided a blueprint for diversity, enabling each genus to split, over time, into numerous species (a process called speciation).


    Quote:

    And as far as I'm concerned, the evolution argument is completely irrelevant in discussions about faith.
    Darwinist do display faith in that the micro evoltution will lead to large scale changes. It takes faith to believe a monkey share a common ancestor with a palm tree.. there is no evidence for that so it takes a leap of faith to believe that.

    Quote:

    Right... let's get this train back on track.
    That's right...
  • Jul 18, 2008, 08:09 PM
    simoneaugie
    Sassy, did you lose faith? Those who have lost their belief in a heavenly father are sharing heart felt truths about themselves.

    If you're not knee-jerking in anger, then what the heck are you doing on this thread?
  • Jul 19, 2008, 07:16 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by simoneaugie
    posting to sassyT : If you're not knee-jerking in anger, then what the heck are you doing on this thread?

    She seems to be completely obsessed with the "A-in-G" and/or "ICR" creationist's views, and insists on posting her rants on "evolution" and/or "the origin of the universe" everywhere...
    I have asked management for a science based discussion board, to direct posts on these subjects out of here ! Just waiting for their reaction...

    :)

    ·
  • Jul 22, 2008, 08:01 PM
    asking
    Dear Allheart,
    You didn't ask this, but I wondered if you knew that some people like myself have never believed in God. My father was raised a Protestant and knew the Bible backwards and forward, but he was an atheist by the time I came along and so was my mother. I don't think she ever believed. We never went to church, and my parents never prayed or talked much about religion at all. They didn't say anything against God because they didn't believe that such a thing existed. We celebrated Christmas and Easter, but just with a tree and presents, an easter egg hunt and lamb, but nothing religious.

    I knew about church because I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood and I used to go the local Catholic Church with my friends and they explained about holy water and showed me the candles, etc.

    When I was about 7 my Catholic friends told me I would go to Hell and described it in scary detail. I was terrified. I talked to my mother and she said it was up to me whether I believed in God. That decision seemed like a terrible burden, but I was afraid of going to Hell, so I remember sitting on my bed many afternoons for several weeks, trying really hard to believe in god. I concentrated so hard, but I knew that honestly I wasn't truly believing. I thought it had to be genuine to count. I just didn't know where to get belief from. I was so afraid of burning, until it dawned on me that if I didn't believe in God, then I didn't have to believe in Hell. So then I felt relieved and stopped worrying about it so much.

    When I was 14, my mother died and I started hanging out more with friends because my father was at work all day and I was lonely. My friends all went to Sunday school and I asked if I could come. I went for a few weeks, but it didn't make a lot of sense to me. I asked a lot of questions, but I was very interested and I remember enjoying the time there. But the instructor said I asked too many questions and asked me not to come any more. So, although I was interested in learning more, I wasn't welcome.

    That really hurt, since I thought that churches were all about taking people in. If I wasn't worth even trying to save, I must be pretty bad! And yet, I'd always been a good kid, getting good grades, obeying my parents and teachers. I was about as eager to please as you can imagine and never got into any trouble. Never stole anything or did drugs, even when kids around me were. But I wasn't welcome at Sunday school. :)

    After that, I listened to different people talk about their faith, and the ideas they talked about were interesting to me, but I never could believe that those ideas came anywhere but from other people. I didn't believe they were from God. I went to different churches when people asked me to, always watching with interest and curiosity.

    One follower of reverend Moon talked to me for several hours over several days. I listened and we talked about lots of different things. But when I told him that I didn't believe in God, he said, "But you're so nice!" It seemed like he was expecting someone evil or mean. It was funny, but it also hurt. I have values and morals like anyone else. I can guarantee those don't come from God because I have them even though I don't believe.

    I always used to tell people that the a in atheist means "without" God, not "against" God. I never felt any hostility towards people who believed in God, although over the years, I have been annoyed by having to hide my atheism while others flaunt their belief and by people telling me that I must be evil. And because of my interest in biology, the fight against teaching biology to school kids has been something I have to disagree with, although I sympathize with parents who feel threatened by evolution. But my argument is not with belief in god by people for whom he is important and a source of love and support. To a degree, I envy that, even though it's not for me.

    My older sister became Eastern Orthodox in her early 20s. I often went to church with her to show respect for her belief. But then after her children were grown, she reverted to being an atheist. I think all but one of her children are now atheists too. I asked how she could go from being an atheist to a believer and she said she never really believed, which was both surprising to me and a bit of a relief, since I could not believe myself and wondered how she could.

    I have long suspected that if you aren't raised to believe in God, it's very difficult to believe as an adult. For me, God is no different from the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause. I say that not to trivialize faith, but to show how very hard it is for me to believe in God. I simply cannot do it. It would be easier for me to believe that the sun wasn't going to rise tomorrow. But my lack of belief does not itself come from any feeling against god anymore than I feel anything against the tooth fairy. I'm indifferent to the idea of god.

    I met someone recently who said he started as an atheist and came to believe in God, but after to talking to him, it seemed to me that his idea of what God was was very vague, not someone you could really pray to and expect an answer. Not a personal god who watches out for you. I think to have that, you have to be taught to believe when you are a toddler. He just believed that the universe is a big place with some vague meaning embedded in it. To me, that's not really God, just kind of an intellectualization of awe. I feel awe all the time, but I don't call it God.

    I hope this helps answer your question even though it isn't technically how I fell away from God, but how I could never believe and never felt the church or God as any kind of personal haven.

    With warm wishes,
    Just Me
  • Jul 22, 2008, 08:34 PM
    lobrobster
    Asking:

    That was very interesting and I truly enjoyed reading it. But I think the moral can be summed up in one sentence...

    We are ALL born atheists.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 08:48 PM
    Skell
    Hi my good friend Allheart,
    Hope you are good..
    I like many others only believed in God at a young age because everyone else seemed to. It was somewhat the norm. I'm not from a religious family although when filling out forms that asked for Religion we would put Anglican. I have been Christened though my younger brother hasn't. Mum and dad never got round to it so I guess that shows how religious we are.

    Since I've been old enough to think for myself I just haven't been able to conceive how god could possibly exist. I just simply have no faith whatsoever. I'm happy for others to do so but for me it is simply inconceivable.
  • Jul 22, 2008, 09:17 PM
    Stringer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Since all of you were so kind and open, I thought it only right to share with you why I do believe in God. I couldn’t list all the reasons, but will share just a couple of snapshots.

    My childhood was difficult, as many of ours may have been. I don’t go into detail, as I find that within the difficulties are many immense blessings, and I never wish for pity. Nothing to be pitied about.

    With that said, God truly did carry me through my entire childhood and I knew within all by being that He was right there watching over me. He sheltered me from storms and protected me, and allowed me to smile in my heart and within my soul. He blessed me with 4 incredible sisters who we share a love and bond, that no words can ever express.
    He also blessed me with a husband, that never is there a day that I have a doubt, it was God’s intentions to bring us together.

    I did go to Catholic school and my favorite subjects were Religion and English. I wasn’t an academic achiever by no means, but I worked hard to get the grades I knew would keep me out of trouble with Mom.

    It did hurt my heart and soul that I saw some of the nuns favor greatly the students who did academically excel. I remained quiet and just watched and smiled. My parents were divorced, strike 2 for me. Not an honor student and from a divorced home. Back then, divorce was not common and was very frowned upon. Strike 3, I had to get a reduction in tuition because Mom couldn’t afford the whole cost….and strike 4, I was on Student Government, without being an honor student, and yes, I was judged my the sisters (nuns). Not all, but some, actually most.

    During Student Government Office elections for my Senior year, a handful of students, who wanted their National Honor Society friend, to get President, did something very awful. They went to one of the sisters (nuns) and told them an awful untruth about me. As God is my witness, it was and is untrue. Anyway, the Guidance sister, called me down to her office, and layed into me, about this untruth. And told me my whole junior class told her it was true. I was horrified, speechless, my mind completely went blank. I can’t even remember anything after I kept saying, “Sister that is so untrue, it’s not true.”. After I felt I wasn’t believed by her, I went to the Principles office, who was a priest, and knew my Mom oh to well, as she called him constantly when she drank, to complain about me and my sisters.

    I said Father, and I began my story, he turned to me, and said “I heard all about it” and then he chuckled. Chuckled!!! I was horrified. All I kept thinking is, I will be dead tonight. My mother is going to paralyze me, and he is chuckling?????? He said, he knew the results of the top 8, and I had nothing to worry about. That it was like an election in the real world, and not to worry. The other side is just going after the top vote getter. I said, “Father….my mother???”. He looked at me and said, “She will believe you”.

    Okay then Father, if you think my Mom will take my word over a sisters….then I will have faith too. I went home, Mom was on the couch reading the paper after a hard days work…I moved towards the step, and sat a couple of steps up from the bottom, in case I had to take off running. I said, “Mom…..something happened in school today…Sister ***** accused me of……smoking pot….( to this day I hate pot because of this incident, never tried it, and never will)….and Mom it’s not true…Mom put her paper down, looked at me, and said, “ I believe you”….and started reading the paper again. Ooooooh the glee I had. I have to say, it was one of the most happiest days of my life. The next day, at school, my head was high, I smiled at the girl, who started it all…and never looked away. Oh, and the girl, who started it all? The Advanced placement student, National honor Society, the one adored by the nuns, was suspended about two weeks later, for disrupting a classroom. How I tried so hard not to be overjoyed by that, but I did contain it.

    And I was elected President of my school. I never retailed against those who tried to hurt me, but the damage they could have cost me, still horrifies me, as Mom was very strict. Being President, however, was a very hollow victory, and painfully achieved, as I then learned, that life can be unkind, but God will always keep us safe. Not because I got President, in a way that whole incident saddens me. To boot, after my year, my school made it mandatory that all those who hold office, must have honors. Of course, I don’t agree with that.

    So, yes, I was judged, even by those of my own faith. But of course I instantly forgave them all, as they are only human. And it was not all the sisters, and I have had many more beautiful, wonderful learning life experiences from sisters, much more positive then negative.

    This may seem like a trivial reason why my faith is so strong, and it’s not actually a reason, but just one event, I share with you, to let you know the strength that God does employ in my life.

    How hard it is to turn the other cheek, and sometimes the cost are painful, but in doing so, honestly the rewards are great.

    God has been so good and is so good, and I just wanted to share this precious gift with all of you.

    Our road will at times never be easy, choices hard to make, confusion and the like, but God has promised to never leave our side, we just have to leave room for Him.

    Thank you for letting me share with all of you, something that was a painful event in my life, as I could not believe people could be so unkind, and the hurt that I still carry does remain, as they have no idea how their untruths could have truly caused me great harm, by their was God’s loving arms to protect me.

    May peace and joy be with all of you always.


    Allheart, I haven't said hello to you in a while, but I see you haven't changed my dear, you are still a blessing to us all, deserving or not.

    Stringer
  • Jul 22, 2008, 09:20 PM
    Stringer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    I suppose I believed in a god once, but it was more because everyone I knew did, the society I grew up in did (northern edge of 'Bible Belt'). My first turns away were because I saw how corrupt and self-serving organized religions are. My last visit to a service was when the minister was preaching against Communism instead of giving a Scriptural sermon or talk.

    I found that those who most loudly proclaimed their faith, were those who seemed most to ignore their own teachings. They were judgemental and bigoted and self-righteous. But while my dimming view of religion had a part to play, it was only to make me question more. The more I learned about how Nature is and works, the less need I had for a divinity or supernatural entity to explain it. Eventually, I realized that I couldn't believe at all in such a being or force.

    Some philosopher on this subject noted that most atheists seem to become that way gradually, while those who become believers generally do so because of a single event. Wonder why?



    -


    Quick question; do you know where Greensburg, Murrysville, Penn Hills and Harrison City are located?

    Stringer
  • Jul 23, 2008, 12:46 AM
    Allheart
    I once again, want to thank all of you, for opening up and sharing. Your writings are done in such a beautiful and honest way, and all of your caring nature shines through in your post.

    I wish I could address you each individually.


    I do wonder, if I wasn't raised with religion being the most important thing, specifically, God, would I now believe as strongly as I do. I guess that's why I am so very grateful to my Mom, and whole family, for making God a part of my life.

    I do completely understand those who are turned off, by some Organized religions. But we have to remember, anytime, man gets their hands on something, there's always the possibility to incorporate things that just should not be.

    It's funny, the one thing constant in my life is my belief and love for God. But I only share that, as all of you have shared your incredible words with me.

    I have learned so very much and you have opened my eyes to thoughts and feelings that I never been exposed to and I do truly thank you for this insight.

    I cherish each of you for sharing and I know most of you have shared that you don't believe that God exsist, but in my heart, and with all the sincerity I can share, I don't judge, nor wish to force my beliefs on anyone, but I also open my heart to each of you,
    And hope that you can see God's love there.

    May you all be blessed with all the happiness and may each day bring sunshine.

    I sincerely thank each of you again,
    Allheart
  • Jul 23, 2008, 05:40 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asking
    But my lack of belief does not itself come from any feeling against god anymore than I feel anything against the tooth fairy. I'm indifferent to the idea of god.

    Thanks for telling your story. I was raised to believe, but have come to see it as not so much wrong as irrelevant. Some good and kind people seem to think it's their belief in God that makes them that way. Some bigoted and intolerant people seem to think it's their belief in God that makes them that way. I doubt it, in both cases.

    I discovered a new word awhile back that seems more accurate than "atheist" to describe my approach to belief--"apatheist": One who doesn't find the question of God's existence very interesting or relevant. I also share a sense of awe and an appreciation for mystery, but it seems to me that trying to name and characterize it in excruciating detail cheapens and trivializes it. I find it more satisfying to just accept it and appreciate it and stop all the intellectual tinkering with it.

    Thanks again for taking the time to tell your story.
  • Jul 23, 2008, 10:54 AM
    asking
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    I discovered a new word awhile back that seems more accurate than "atheist" to describe my approach to belief--"apatheist": One who doesn't find the question of God's existence very interesting or relevant. I also share a sense of awe and an appreciation for mystery, but it seems to me that trying to name and characterize it in excruciating detail cheapens and trivializes it. I find it more satisfying to just accept it and appreciate it and stop all the intellectual tinkering with it.

    Me too! I just stumbled on that word at wikipedia and liked it very much.

    And I feel the same way about awe and my sense of mystery. I REALLY don't like talking about it, as it seems to take a lot away from it and the person you talk to usually doesn't quite understand what you are saying and it comes back wrong.
  • Jul 23, 2008, 07:42 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stringer
    Quick question; do you know where Greensburg, Murrysville, Penn Hills and Harrison City are located?

    Stringer

    Yes, yes, yes, no.





    <G> Greensburg is south of here. Penn Hills is closest.



    -
  • Jul 23, 2008, 07:45 PM
    Stringer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    Yes, yes, yes, no.





    <G> Greensburg is south of here. Penn Hills is closest.



    -

    Born in the Greensburg Hospital, mostly raised in and around Jeannette... :)
  • Jul 23, 2008, 07:47 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Stringer - nice to meet you. I was born in Clarksburg, WV to a long line of WV hillbillies.




    -
  • Jul 23, 2008, 07:56 PM
    JoeCanada76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    I once again, want to thank all of you, for opening up and sharing. Your writings are done in such a beautiful and honest way, and all of your caring nature shines through in your post.

    I wish I could address you each individualy.


    I do wonder, if I wasn't raised with religion being the most important thing, specifically, God, would I now believe as strongly as I do. I guess that's why I am so very grateful to my Mom, and whole family, for making God a part of my life.

    I do completely understand those who are turned off, by some Organized religions. But we have to remember, anytime, man gets their hands on something, there's always the possiblilty to incorporate things that just should not be.

    It's funny, the one thing constant in my life is my belief and love for God. But I only share that, as all of you have shared your incredible words with me.

    I have learned so very much and you have opened my eyes to thoughts and feelings that I never been exposed to and I do truly thank you for this insight.

    I cherish each of you for sharing and I know most of you have shared that you don't believe that God exsist, but in my heart, and with all the sincerity I can share, I don't judge, nor wish to force my beliefs on anyone, but I also open my heart to each of you,
    and hope that you can see God's love there.

    May you all be blessed with all the happiness and may each day bring sunshine.

    I sincerely thank each of you again,
    Allheart

    Allheart, your always sharing your beautiful heart to all that are here. May God bless you always. Just wanted to say that you truly a gift from God. I can not answer any of these questions. I have always had strong beliefs in God since very young and it has never changed. We all have our own stories and reasons and experiences. I took part by reading every one of the responses. Interesting to see what everybody shares with each other, in a very respectful and friendly way...

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