I used to be Christian... I was rifling through some old Christian CDs of mine today, and got to thinking... I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics. I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...

I guess I just don't get it. How can people understand whatever force or energy or god there is so much to be able to believe something like Christianity, which has so many specifics (that god sent his son, who was also god, to save humanity from their sin... and this son sent the holy spirit, which is also god... that god is three in one... )

I feel like 'faith' is a cop-out when you can't give any real answers for why you believe the things you do... and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things...

How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand? I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

And as a Christian I can't understand how anyone can't see all of God's creation and see his power in everything in the world.

Pure faith is not just believing, it is far more than that, it has a actual way of life, You not only believe, but you feel the power, you hear his world, and you see him in all his creations.

For example when I saw someone healed in the hospital ER, when I get the doctors reports of wonderous things he does. When I see wonders that happen to people, and I see his grace and forgiveness to people in the worst parts of their lifes. It is not just a belief, it is a way of life, the power to help you though the hard parts of life, and the suffering of life, and the wonders of the power when he shows his glory.

If you actually have that faith, nothing on earth could ever take that away from you.

And yes, it has nothing to do woth filling in gaps, if that is all it was used for, ti is merely a crutch and not a real life style of faith.

Can I ask you what happened that made you be a nonbeliever? I mean, you can still believe in GOD and not have a church that you particularly care for, but still know he's their? If you used to be a Christian, what happened that made you not? You can certainly have questions about Faith and GOD but to chuck it all together seems a little harsh. Isn't it innocent until proven gulity? You've gone straight for the guilty road instead of checking you facts first? Are you now an Atheist then? Faith is real and GOD is real, and you're right, it is hard to believe something or someone if you can't see it... I mean you believe in Hope don't you? Have you ever Hoped for a big paycheck or that it did or didn't rain... or that something was on sale, etc... you still grabbed onto hope to help something go you way. Why not Faith? What's wrong with believing in something that truly might help you? If you can Hope, you can have Faith. I think you should really seek answers from a Christian person that you trust or did and get some answers, ans open yourself to it and it will make sense. Good Luck and remember, God is ALWAYS capitalized :)

Margog, Sounds like you miss your 'faith,' or think you should. If that's so, is it the loss of a divine guide? Maybe the loss of the social network (provided you attended a house of worship). Many studies claim that the religious are 'happier' but the qualifier is the social group to which they belong - it gives them a more secure sense of belonging and a network for helping through problems.

When you were a believer, was it because your family and community were also? I mean, did you have faith in a god because it was 'expected' or because you found it on your own? In my teens, I came to realize the former was true for me, so I began really examining my faith and every other I could find 'reliable' info on. (It didn't help when my minister began railing about Communism on Sundays instead of Scripture.) The result was a change from 'automatic' faith to agnosticism - the God I was brought up to believe in didn't exist as I was taught, but there might be an omnipotent entity. I even rationalized that one day science would find this 'god' as the ultimate force that held the most basic atomic particles together (the ones we haven't yet been able to detect or at least confirm).

Eventually I came to the conclusion that the concept of a god was too irrational. Then I started to study science to confirm this and found I didn't need such an entity to explain anything. Any residual 'faith' in me goes back to that unnamed 'basic force' but even that I cannot admit to as a conscious being - it's just the way the universe is. Has always been. So-called natural laws...

I suggest you talk to a few ministers (or priests). Don't limit yourself to one church, either. Maybe a couple in a few different sects. Each will have their own slant on a basic message and may help you to decide if you need to return to an organized religion, or if you can reconcile your fading faith to a solely personal one without the need for a particular doctrine. Or that you don't need a faith at all.

I don't need a god to behave in a 'christian' manner. I don't need the hope of a blissful, or the fear of a terrible, afterlife to treat my fellow humans (or any living thing) with respect. I don't think the reward or punishment should be necessary for that and I worry about those (and the society many of them seem to desire) who think it is necessary.

Good luck in your search...

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Originally Posted by margog85

How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand? I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

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I will try to explain my own thoughts though not sure if I can make a non-believer understand the why or how.
I am a believer in a monotheistic religion, a muslim.

I believe in my beliefs because what I believe makes sense to me.Not out of convenience or not to fill gaps or not to serve the emotional need to believe.

I believe because I can never accept that this whole universe came about without a designer,a planner,a Creator.There are too many marvels in nature for me to even think that it all came about by chance.
I am not saying I don't believe in the big bang etc.
All I know is that the way the universe and how natural systems work is much too intricate for it to have occurred by chance.Now there is the reason I believe in a Creator,an Almighty being.

Now about the choice of my religion- I did grow up in a muslim household,my basic values come from that.but I was exposed to different cultures and faiths when I was quite young.I wasn't a firm follower of my faith then,it was just a part of my life I rarely thought about at that time.
Then things changed as I grew up,unlike most I did not start to doubt my beliefs but I began to understand what my faith is about and what it meant for me to be a believer.
I began to read up on my beliefs as well as other faiths, things became clearer.

I realised that I wasn't following a new religion,but a religion as old as mankind itself.Monotheism I believe in is the same as the other two major monotheistic faiths and I believe what I follow is not that different from the basic monotheistic beliefs in those religions because it came from the same source.

I believe in all the revealed books in that the necessary teachings of each of those books is in the book I believe in.For me to have faith in my beliefs and the Almighty I believe in is reality for me.
That an Almighty exists is not hard for me to believe because I know that there are things in the universe on earth and beyond that humans may never find an explanation.

For me to believe in an Almighty is to believe in ultimate justice for all.That those who committ murder and other crimes and escape the worldly human punishment cannot escape the ultimate justice they will face after death.To me that makes sense because for some to committ atrocities and to escape punishment is not fair or right,for some to suffer at the hands of another human and not have to face the consequences of their actions is not right.
That those who have all that they require to enjoy this worldly life and those who barely scrape by to live,I believe for each of these types,they will have to answer as to what they did in this world whether right or wrong.

My beliefs show me that life is a test and it explains the hardships faced by good doers or bliss enjoyed by bad doers.
Each of these are being tested for what they do with what they have and how they live.

And my beliefs explain to me why there are different kinds of people in looks,height and manners.I know science has explanations for this,but I believe that physical strengths and weaknesses among different people are tests too.

Anyway,I believe what I believe because my beliefs answer my questions regarding life and my existence in this world.

EDIT:::
Regarding the need to fit into a social group for strength etc.
It has done the opposite for me because those who were close before I became a firm believer has emotionally distanced themselves from me because they do not want to think about what it means to be a firm believer.
They only wish to associate with someone who will strengthen their own basic beliefs but not look beyond what it actually means to believe.
Friends find it hard to meet up and talk with me because they see the changes in my appearance and some I guess fear that I may pull them in,when I am just the same person as I was before by character but different in my outlook on life and living.

I appreciate things more now,I face challenges better and now when to let go and that there are things beyond our control no matter what we may wish otherwise.

And on a side note,I did not strengthen my faith because of drugs,alcohol or any other sort of abuse or hitting rock bottom in any area of life.
I have never used drugs or tasted alcohol,nor was I promiscuous(sp) or irresponsible.I have the same values as before now they are more stronger as everything my beliefs add to what I already had within me.

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Originally Posted by margog85

I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

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I know the feeling! Besides that : NOBODY can prove god/gods exist. That's the basis of religious BELIEF.
It's the weakness of religion, and the reason why theists can only make claims about their beliefs. And for a smaller group of theists the reason to be aggressive against other views that often can be supported by objective evidence for their views, and therefore becomes some kind of threat to those who's faith is tottering.

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Originally Posted by margog85

Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own?

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You got that spot on, Margo!

;)

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Your feeling there is something out there could be God trying to get your attention.
If you truly didn't believe you would not even be questioning these feelings you would be firm with unbelief. Maybe it would be good to find a Christian you can go to and ask questions.
Find answers to your questions don't just deny or dismiss them.

Religion is a way of life, a set of beliefs and stories that have been told and retold and indoctrinated throughout history and time. Different ones were created to make people feel safer about things they will never understand. It is a set of moral and ethical standards and rules to abide by. It doesn't really have anything to do with God. Religion is a tool to control people and used to create definite understandings about our creation and our existence.

RELIGION ASIDE... God has NOT been disproven either. YEs it may take faith to believe in an existence greater than yourself, but with all the science and technology we have, there is nothing that can prove God doesn't exist either. It is all in your perception of what you think God is. Faith can be viewed as what we use in place of a proven hypothesis. Although there is evolution, there is nothing that has disproved God's existence before evolution occurred.

I am certain that the more I know, the less I understand. However in dealing with my own experiences with death and loss I have learned something. WE are here to grow and evolve spiritually, WITHIN. WE are here to be connected to the energy that is on this earth and in every living thing. We are here to love and be loved. I don't need faith to know this, I have come to realize it as my truth. My faith is in what I believe will happen after this existence.. I think my soul has lived before and goes on to live again.. I don't know where, how or when. My faith keeps me going so I am not afraid of the unknown.

Ultimately, not having faith doesn't disprove God exists either. I know there are miracles right in front of us everyday in nature, with our families and children and throughout the world that constitute a faith in something greater than us. WE may only focus on what is evil, corrupt, tragic, painful or unclear, but we can also focus on the complete opposite. In changing our perspective to recognizing beauty, love and joy, it allows us heightened awareness and opportunity for spiritual growth and a recognition of a God, NOT somewhere out there or up above, but within each one of us. As we are all connected, we are all one, and thus we are all God.

Just as when people are silent, with nature, praying or meditating, or doing yoga, they are able to become calm, peaceful and feel "one" with universe. That is what I am talking about, that is the time when people become aware of the energy and being connected to it. They feel a complete detachment from pain, suffering or sadness.. that is what being one with spirit will do. That is how God exists for me. I try to be aware all the time but sometimes I am distracted, weak and selfish. The good thing is, since we were born with free will, we are able to learn from our mistakes and become better people. That is why I don't adhere to religion because it is about punishment and sinning, and that isn't all what God is about.. (AT LEAST FOR ME)

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

If you truly didn't believe you would not even be questioning these feelings you would be firm with unbelief. Maybe it would be good to find a Christian you can go to and ask questions.

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... "truly"... based on what do you suggest that?
Margo believed in some deity almost all her life, and just has to still settle in with her new world views excluding a deity, reason for her present feelings that there is or may be some other power out there...

:rolleyes:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

... "truly" ... based on what do you suggest that?
Margo believed in some deity almost all her life, and just has to still settle in with her new world views excluding a deity, reason for her present feelings that there is or may be some other power out there ....

:rolleyes:

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And what do you think that other power out there may be?? :rolleyes:

She could ask a rabbi even

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Originally Posted by shatteredsoul

God has NOT been disproven either.

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What is it with so many theists that once a former theist loose his/her belief in a deity, that always some other theist posts that this does not mean "that the deity is not disproved"?
Of course it does not mean that. But much more important is that there has never been any proof for any deity to exist, and that is much more important !

:rolleyes:

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WHy is it that so many people want to put a label on someone else in order to prove their point. I don't put myself in any category that you just put me. I have a personal relationship with an existence greater than myself and nothing in history has done anything to prove that the existence I am aware of, DOES NOT EXIST. YOU made your point about what has been proven or not proven.. In order for your argument to be plausible, you would have to prove that my statement is incorrect or unfounded. YOU HAVE NO PROOF to disprove my theory, thus it doesn't make your assumption any more important or true than mine...

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Originally Posted by shatteredsoul

WHy is it that so many people want to put a label on someone else in order to prove their point. I don't put myself in any category that you just put me. I have a personal relationship with an existence greater than myself and nothing in history has done anything to prove that the existence I am aware of, DOES NOT EXIST. YOU made your point about what has been proven or not proven.. In order for your argument to be plausible, you would have to prove that my statement is incorrect or unfounded. YOU HAVE NO PROOF to disprove my theory, thus it doesn't make your assumption any more important or true than mine....

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AMEN!

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Originally Posted by shatteredsoul

YOU made your point about what has been proven or not proven.. In order for your argument to be plausible, you would have to prove that my statement is incorrect or unfounded. YOU HAVE NO PROOF to disprove my theory, thus it doesn't make your assumption any more important or true than mine....

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That is an incorrect statement. There is a huge difference between making a claim based on a linguistic and/or logical "positive" and a linguistic and/or logical "negative".
If nobody can provide objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "positive" , than supporters of that claim should never ask for objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "negative". That is extremely unfair.

Example :

For the statement : there is life all around the universe all that has to be done is to send probes in all directions into space, which - encountering life - have to return and/or report that back. As soon as you have a couple of such reports, your claim is valid.

However for the statement : there is no life in the universe other than on earth one has to send multi-trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of probes to each and every planet, planetoid, or any other possible habitat - including gas clouds - in the universe to check the on itself already enormous difficult task to prove that there is no life there. Simply an impossible task to do .

Therefore : the onus to prove the existence of a deity/deities is on the believers. Not on the non-believers to prove the non-existence of a deity/deities.

As stated so many times before : from me you may believe whatever you like. But that does not mean that you are correct with what you believe. So do not try to convince others that your delusions are the "one and only truth" , but support your beliefs with your actions and your deeds.
"Spreading the word" was not meant to be words only, but clearly and mainly by example.

So far your actions are not showing yet that you got to "spreading the word".

:rolleyes:

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We do not have to prove anything because faith is to be believed not proven or it would not be faith so that is where your lengthy posts of us having to prove anything miss the point.
So none of what you say is any more correct/relevant than us saying prove prove it is not.

I had posted the below, today, on another thread, but I think it may apply to this one as well. Forgive me, if some of it applies too much to the other thread, but I hope you can see the relevance to this one :).

I'll also add to the below….I think it is great that you ask that you question, to be it's a sign of hope. Your heart and mind have not completely ruled out God's love, you still reach and wonder for the answer.

To me, this life would be pure blek, without God's love. And I have the most wonderful husband, family, friends, job….all of it. But without God, it just wouldn't shine as it does. I wouldn't be able to see the beauty and love in all people.

Why do children starve? Because we allow them to. Not God. He is depending on all of us to take care of each other in all ways.

I can see God's love in all people. We all are so imperfect, we have faults, we get upset at each other – but deep within us all – is the capacity to love and forgive. That to me, is one of the many gifts, that God has blessed us with. With so much that goes on, how do you think we still are able to reach our hands out to each other?

************************************************** **********************

I completely agree with OG, that you shouldn't attribute health, good health, as a sign that God exist. It can in some circumstances, but what about those beautiful people stricken with cancer, or those beautiful starving children, is God not right there by their side?

I also agree with Wildandblue, that if you give God the keys, to the car of life, His loving plan for you, will guide you.

As OG so wonderfully stated, we all, sadly will be stricken with some illness or circumstance that will cease our life on this earth, but it is my belief, that God will make that difficult road, much easier.

God carried me through my whole childhood. I remember sitting on the edge of the bed, feet didn't even touch the ground, and smiling and praying, knowing that God was right there with me and would continue to be with me and get me through a great difficulty that I knew was only minutes away.

For me, the proof that some seek, is all around, it's what the eyes behold and the heart sees, that helps one to believe.

I know some say there life is just fine without the believing that there is a God, and would be willing to believe once they obtain proof, but that is the wonder of God. It is my belief, that if one would open their eyes and see God's love, they would understand the glorious gifts they now enjoy are sent from above, and would be even that more precious to behold.

I wish I had the words that would help others to see, not to force my view, but so others are not left out in a place that they don't have to be. But I don't have the words, or the proof that some seek. I just have prayers that all will find their way, and keep me on the right path to our Loving Father.

I can only share with all of you, that when I try and run this life by myself, it never seems to work out too well, but when I give those keys over to God, the road is so much easier.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

I can only share with all of you, that when I try and run this life by myself, it never seems to work out too well, but when I give those keys over to God, the road is so much easier.

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I guess that's where many of us differ in our reasons for being religious or not. I seem to be able to run my life just fine without a book or worshipping some unseen presence. I don't have a need to give the keys to anyone because I'm driving just fine.

I understand what you are saying NK. But what I mean in handling life better - I mean in a more caring way. In a way, that exceeds what some may think is beyond a human capability... turning the other cheek and offering a loving shoulder when unkindness comes your way. That sort of thing. It's so hard to do that, when you are hurt, upset or angry, and stay in your human self, but when you, or I mean I, remember God's love and what He wants for us, it's so far easier to be able to turn that cheek and want well for those who may injure you.

That's more of what I mean than things running smoothly or going well.

I do that without a god. I mean I try my best by my own volition.

I do too, NK, but when I forget about God's love, and wallow in my upset, I am not always very successful. But then I look beyond upset and beyond the person's actions and see a whole lot of good, and maybe even the reasons for their negative actions. It's hard to overcome that quickly on my own, but the moment I remember about God's love, the upset vanishes almost instantly.

I guess the big question is: why are you so upset all the time? That's not the natural way of being in my view.

LOL Good question :).

I'm not upset all the time - but there are times that I do get upset and I overcome it far easier with God's love in my heart.

It's just one example of the difference God makes in my life.

Ah I see. I get upset too, like all human beings, but I overcome it on my own.

Here, for you:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

That is an incorrect statement. There is a huge difference between making a claim based on a linguistic and/or logical "positive" and a linguistic and/or logical "negative".
If nobody can provide objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "positive" , than supporters of that claim should never ask for objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "negative". That is extremely unfair.

Example :

For the statement : there is life all around the universe all that has to be done is to send probes in all directions into space, which - encountering life - have to return and/or report that back. As soon as you have a couple of such reports, your claim is valid.

However for the statement : there is no life in the universe other than on earth one has to send multi-trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of probes to each and every planet, planetoid, or any other possible habitat - including gas clouds - in the universe to check the on itself already enormous difficult task to prove that there is no life there. Simply an impossible task to do .

Therefore : the onus to prove the existence of a deity/deities is on the believers. Not on the non-believers to prove the non-existence of a deity/deities.

As stated so many times before : from me you may believe whatever you like. But that does not mean that you are correct with what you believe. So do not try to convince others that your delusions are the "one and only truth" , but support your beliefs with your actions and your deeds.
"Spreading the word" was not meant to be words only, but clearly and mainly by example.

So far your actions are not showing yet that you got to "spreading the word".

:rolleyes:

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I think you have absolutely no idea what I have written in my posts. You are simply here to argue. I don't know one bit about my "one and ONLY truth" all I spoke about was what I have experienced to be PERSONALLY TRUE FOR ME.. I never tried to convince you of anything, I just shared my view and understanding of my own existence. I have never been the sort to "SPREAD THE WORD" whatever that means, and I have never tried to make people see MY VIEW AS THE ONLY CORRECT ONE..

This isn't my first rodeo speaking on this site about faith or religion, I commented very simply because most of the time no one responds to anything but dramatic insults and attacks. I am not here for that and I NEVER HAVE been.


MY "action" has been to recognize that if I give and receive love, I feel happy and at peace. THAT is all. I have also realized that its "NOT LIFE ALL AROUND THE EARTH OR UNIVERSE"
BUT RATHER:

THE energy within everything that is alive... HOW that happens on any planet has yet to be understood or proved of where it originated from. JUST as "GOD's" existence has yet to be proven or understood.

THE Magnificent MYSTERIES OF THE UNIVERSE ARE THAT FOR A REASON: we aren't equipped to take in all the knowledge that is out there.. yet some people are more connected to the energy and thus grow differently than someone as stunted in their thinking as you are.

Please stop putting me into a category of someone who is any certain LABEL, I am simply me.. I live my life and as I grow older, these are things that I understand to be true FOR MY LIFE.. I don't expect or assume everyone else will agree with it. We are all vastly different human beings, with incredibly intriciate minds but we are all connected as well.

EVERYTHING that is alive is connected, simply by the energy it is created with, HOW can that NOT BE TRUE??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yes cred keeps making the accusation that we are saying stuff like "the one and only truth is...."
I have yet to see ALL these one and only truth quotes.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Ah I see. I get upset too, like all human beings, but I overcome it on my own.

Here, for you:

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OMG I love that!! The world is awesome, isn't it :)

I was singing right with it!! I do love the whole world :)

NoHelp4u... You are right and I really think its ridiculous. Maybe it is due to a paranoia of sorts but I haven't seen one consistent message of any specific truth.. Just people's perception of faith. THAT Is what the poster was asking about.. THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT!! :)

Allheart, that is what I so wonderful about you, you send a message of love to everyone... what in the world could ever be wrong with that?? Xoxo;)

shatteredsoul / N0help4u

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yes cred keeps making the accusation that we are saying stuff like "the one and only truth is...."
I have yet to see ALL these one and only truth quotes.

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The problem is that all theists use quotes like "God did this" or "God knows that", many even talk about the Christian "truth" , or even about "the one and only truth".
What they mean is that they BELIEVE that .

That is what I wanted to make very clear.

===

About my post : That is an incorrect statement.

That post stands, and although partly replied (to the first lines only), the essence of the post was not replied to. Of course not, as that part of the post can not be denied to be correct.

:rolleyes:

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And what we would like are is to see these actual quotes we use cause we haven't seen them used here. Maybe we are overlooking them so we would like the 'proof' so for future reference we can correct it:rolleyes:

I agree Cred - I haven't seen those quotes either "the one and only truth". I will tell you this, that I do believe it to be a truth, that God does exist, and everyone, will be introduced to God at one point in their lives and will make a choice as to whether to accept Him or deny Him. That everyone will be armed with enough information about God to be able to make that conscious choice. That those that continue to deny Him, will not have eternal life with Him.

Not sure why we are introduced at different stages in our lives, maybe so we can help each other and long and make sure none of us are lost on the way.

( p.s. I do love you Shattered :) many hugs)

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Originally Posted by shatteredsoul

Religion is a way of of life, a set of beliefs and stories that have been told and retold and indoctrinated throughout history and time. Different ones were created to make people feel safer about things they will never understand. It is a set of moral and ethical standards and rules to abide by. It doesn't really have anything to do with God. Religion is a tool to control people and used to create definite understandings about our creation and our existence.

RELIGION ASIDE... God has NOT been disproven either. YEs it may take faith to believe in an existence greater than yourself, but with all the science and technology we have, there is nothing that can prove God doesn't exist either. It is all in your perception of what you think God is. Faith can be viewed as what we use in place of a proven hypothesis. Although there is evolution, there is nothing that has disproved God's existence before evolution occured.

I am certain that the more I know, the less I understand. However in dealing with my own experiences with death and loss I have learned something. WE are here to grow and evolve spiritually, WITHIN. WE are here to be connected to the energy that is on this earth and in every living thing. We are here to love and be loved. I don't need faith to know this, I have come to realize it as my truth. My faith is in what I believe will happen after this existence.. I think my soul has lived before and goes on to live again.. I don't know where, how or when. My faith keeps me going so I am not afraid of the unknown.

Ultimately, not having faith doesn't disprove God exists either. I know there are miracles right in front of us everyday in nature, with our families and children and throughout the world that constitute a faith in something greater than us. WE may only focus on what is evil, corrupt, tragic, painful or unclear, but we can also focus on the complete opposite. In changing our perspective to recognizing beauty, love and joy, it allows us heightened awareness and opportunity for spiritual growth and a recognition of a God, NOT somewhere out there or up above, but within each one of us. As we are all connected, we are all one, and thus we are all God.

Just as when people are silent, with nature, praying or meditating, or doing yoga, they are able to become calm, peaceful and feel "one" with universe. That is what I am talking about, that is the time when people become aware of the energy and being connected to it. They feel a complete detachment from pain, suffering or sadness.. that is what being one with spirit will do. That is how God exists for me. I try to be aware all the time but sometimes I am distracted, weak and selfish. The good thing is, since we were born with free will, we are able to learn from our mistakes and become better people. That is why I don't adhere to religion because it is about punishment and sinning, and that isn't all what God is about.. (AT LEAST FOR ME)

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YOU TELL ME WHERE YOU RESPONDED TO MY ENTIRE POST WHEN REALLY THE ONLY THNG YOU RESPONDED TO WAS MY POINT ABOUT DISPROVING GOD EXISTS. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ANSWERS ONLY PART OF WHAT OTHERS SAY AND THEN RUN WITH IT; YOU ARE LIKE A BAD JOURNALIST WHO MISREPRESENTS QUOTES AND WHAT PEOPLE REALLY ARE TRYING TO COMMUNICATE. IT IS SAD REALLY.

Moreover, I don't have to prove something to be true for it to be true. IF that is the case how do you prove your own theory of EXISTENCE, which hasn't been "proven" by anyone.. they are simply theories. Even if you were to say the "Big Bang" is what has been proven, there is nothing that makes God less existent because of it. WHat my interpretation of God is, is not AT ALL RELIGIOUS and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SPREADING ANY WORD.. YOu take what religious zealots say in other posts and respond to everyone with the same rhetoric. YOu are wrong and your slippery slope of an argument holds no more water than mine..

MY own perspective of God is that we are all made up of the same energy and thus we are all connected and we are all God. God isn't a man in the sky holding a staff and rod waiting to punish. IT is the unexplainable mystery of our ability to love and be loved that cannot be proven or explained, but cannot be denied, THAT IS WHAT GOD IS... and everything else in between. GOD is a term I use, but I do not label myself a DEIST or whatever, I don't enforce my beliefs upon others and I am quite aware of YOUR TRUTHS being the one that is forced down people's throats. So, before you judge another's response, make sure you are responding to what is said, NOT JUST WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

That post stands, and although partly replied (to the first lines only), the essence of the post was not replied to. Of course not, as that part of the post can not be denied to be correct.

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Well I appreciated it. I laughed because it so logical and incontrovertible and so utterly inaccessible to those to whom you are writing. Faith, clearly, is not about logic.

But it does seem unfair for believers to argue that the existence of God is not subject to proof but that unbelievers are under some sort of obligation to justify not believing. I think we should be able to play by the same rules.

I don't know WHAT BELIEVERS you are talking about, but I never said anything about God not being subject to proof or that a NON BELIEVER is under some sort of obligation to justify ANYTHING.. WHAT IS SAID IS THAT NEITHER HAS BEEN DISPROVED OR CAN BE PROVED so BOTH SIDES TAKE AN ELEMENT OF FAITH TO BELIEVE IN..

IT is amazing how you hear what you want to hear and if anyone is playing by their own rules.. its you.

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Originally Posted by shatteredsoul

I don't know WHAT BELIEVERS you are talking about, but I never said anything about God not being subject to proof or that a NON BELIEVER is under some sort of obligation to justify ANYTHING.. WHAT IS SAID IS THAT NEITHER HAS BEEN DISPROVED OR CAN BE PROVED so BOTH SIDES TAKE AN ELEMENT OF FAITH TO BELIEVE IN..

IT is amazing how you hear what you want to hear and if anyone is playing by their own rules.. its you.

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I SECOND THAT !

Okay, I haven't been able to respond to everyone, so I'll try to briefly go through and respond to what everyone has posted so far in response to my question. I am asking a lot of questions, and not to be rude in anyway. I'm genuinely asking these things. I know a lot of times, things written can come off rudely or condescendingly when they're not meant to be. So please know in advance that any questions I ask are genuine questions to which I hope to receive answers, and not in any way a criticism of anyone's responses. I appreciate everyone's input and hope to hear more from everyone about this.

Fr. Chuck- I'm not saying that I don't see a possibility of there being something greater than us. I feel that there's something behind all of this. I just don't understand how people can have such strong beliefs in the specifics of the nature of that something-greater. How can we assume that it's some intelligent being, that it's a being that is good, that there's a personal dimension to this being, that you can communicate with this being, that it is a BEING and not just some sort of energy. Where do these ideas come from and how can they be believed so strongly? It just seems to possible to me for these beliefs to stem from our own longing and needs. From loneliness. From a need we need to fill, to have some sort of connection to something outside of ourselves, some sort of guidance or protection... I just want to know how people progress from a belief that there is SOMETHING out there (which I do believe) to the specifics of a religion. It just seems like there are too many assumptions made. And with the number of religions out there with their own ideas and beliefs, which are often an interpretation and understanding of whatever this something-else is filtered through their culture, society, upbringing, etc... I just don't think I can believe something strongly that I know is so shaped by society, culture, and assumption rather than by truth.

rsvp209- A lot of things happened that made me realize that my religion was not a good fit for me. Mainly the way that people reacted and treated me when I came out. I'm gay, and people at church seemed to treat me differently, my family changed the locks on me and told me what a rotten sinner I was and told me that they didn't trust me around my younger sister because I was just as 'perverted' as a child molestor. My beliefs didn't line up with the religion that had once been a major part of my life, because no matter how much I prayed, and cried, and read about it, and talked about it, I just couldn't wrap my mind around why they believe the things they do. Those events shook me pretty deeply, and I started questioning everything- I lost my sense of security and really just had a hard time believing in anything. As I said in response to Fr. Chuck, I still believe there is something more than what I can see, but I have a very hard time believing in the specifics of a religion. I'm not an atheist, I'd say more of an agnostic- I believe there is something more, but I have no way of really understanding what that something more is. Your analogy of hope and faith doesn't make much sense to me. Hope is wanting something you don't know if you'll get or not. Which seems to be logical, esp. if you're working towards getting whatever it is you hope for. Faith is believing in something you can never know for sure. How are those the same?

WVHiflyer- I do miss it sometimes, but I can't blindly believe in something anymore- and you're right, I think there is a sense of belonging to something bigger that I miss. Now the only something 'bigger' I belong to is the company I work for. And that's not much fun (lol). As far as why I believed when I did... I questioned my beliefs very young, around 12 or 13. Was raised Catholic, and then declared myself an atheist. Went through the whole 'life-is-hard-because-I'm-an-angsty-teen' phase, and 'found' god and went back to Catholicism. Didn't check out other religions really. But believing gave me a sense of comfort, belonging, and acceptance that I didn't have anywhere else at that point. I think part of me wants to return to some sort of organized belief system just to have some sort of clarity, which I feel I lack now... but at the same time, there are so many holes and questions I see in the beliefs I look into that I don't think I could ever really fully believe in the doctrine of a specific religion again. Have you ever wished you could just turn your mind off for a bit so you could go through the motions and feel whatever kind of connection to that 'something bigger' that other religious people feel? And not be so aware of the feeling that your tricking yourself? That's kind of how I feel right now... it's weird. I feel that I don't 'need' a god to live a good life, or to deal with things, or that reward/punishment should dictate my actions or anyone elses--- I don't know, I guess I'm just kind of thinking about where I was, where I am, and where (if anywhere) I'm going, and trying to see why and how people can make the claims they do...

firmbeliever- I'm glad that your happy with your beliefs, but I really didn't gather from your response why you believe what you do, except that it makes sense to you and that it provides answers to your questions. But do you ever wonder if your beliefs are 'right'- like, if what you believe about god is actually what really is? Because there are so many religions out there, all of which make sense to and provide answers to those who believe in that religion. Are all religions equally valid, and truth something relative? I have a really hard time understanding that.

credendovidis- I appreciate you input and response. It seems that god cannot be proven or disproven- and I feel like I'm not just going to believe until I'm proven wrong. I do believe that there is something more than what I can see- maybe that is just me hanging on to what I'm used to, I don't know just yet. I guess that's another thing I'll figure out in time.

nohelp4u- I guess it could be, but I don't think so. And I never said I didn't believe- I said that I do believe that there is something more, but I have no idea what. And I firmly believe that I have no idea what that is, and I strongly doubt I ever will- but I want to if it's possible. Which is why I presented this question- to see how other people can believe and have faith in something when there are so many variables and no way that I can see to really be sure of anything. And in response to your second post on this thread... you said 'we do not have to prove anything because faith is to be believed not proven or it would not be faith'- I really just don't understand that. It seems like, then, you could make up any old thing and believe it... and there'd be no way of anyone knowing that what they believe is true, because there's not a basis for it... so then, knowing that, how could you really believe?

shatteredsoul- I agree that religion is a tool to control people- but I don't know if that was the main purpose of religion, but instead what it has evolved into. It seems a little too much like a conspiracy theory to me. No offense- but I feel like people offered explanations for things they couldn't understand that were then passed on and became common beliefs among groups, religions formed, numbers of believers grew and organization became necessary, and whenever there is an organization, esp. where there is some sort of hierarchy, there is also corruption and abuse of power. Again, I find your beliefs interesting, but what are they based upon? How did you come to those beliefs, with all of the others out there? Was it just what made sense to you? And if so, then it seems like religious 'truth' is relative, since different things make sense to different people depending upon experience, perception, etc. And as far as 'connection' with god or whatever spirit there is that allows people to feel calm or disconnect from pain they are feeling- doesn't it seem possible that that could be pyschological? Something within our own physical capacity to control, not something we get from some outside source?

Allheart- I always appreciate your posts, and wish I knew you personally. You are such a kind and loving person, and I really admire and respect that. It's not common. I wonder, though... you say that life would be bleek without god's love- and I wonder if that's because it's something you're used to and it would seem bleek if it was absent after feeling that it was there. I don't feel like I have any sort of 'personal' relationship with god and I don't know for certain that god is capable of something as human as love or the other emotions often attributed to god. I wonder if that's our projection of what we want and/or can understand onto whatever that 'being' or 'energy' is. Anyway, I don't have that kind of belief, and I feel my life is far from bleek. I do see goodness and beauty in all people, and a lot of times seeing that (i.e. being with my partner and feeling that connection that we have) makes me feel like there is something more to life than skin and bones and dirt and air... like there's some sort of spiritual dimension, some sort of... something else to who we are that could cause me to feel the way I do when I'm with her, or when I see something beautiful in nature... I guess I don't really doubt that there's something more, but I question how people can get down to the specifics of their beliefs. It just seems like there's so much to work through to get to that nitty gritty detail, and so many people have come up with so many different answers, how can you be sure that what you have faith in is really the right thing? Like I said to others, it seems like it can be such a relative matter, I don't get it.

NeedKarma- I agree that I can live my life fine w/o belief in something bigger than me- I have been, I guess, because even though I have a feeling that there may be more, I know nothing about whatever that something more could be, so it doesn't impact my life much like it does for religious people. I can handle things, and I do so on my own. I don't pray, I don't adhere to any religious beliefs... but I just wonder about it all. So many people believe in something... but they all believe in different things, even within the same religion sometimes. Is there something to it? To any of it? Does each religion have a little bit of truth?



And in regard to whatever this debating is all about... I'm not touching that one. Lol. I'm not here to argue or accuse anyone of forcing their beliefs or discuss how religious people do or do not conduct themselves- I just have questions and want to hear from people and discuss their answers. That's all.

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Originally Posted by asking

.... it does seem unfair for believers to argue that the existence of God is not subject to proof but that unbelievers are under some sort of obligation to justify not believing. I think we should be able to play by the same rules.

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Excellent point !

:D

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That those that continue to deny Him, will not have eternal life with Him.

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I didn't post here originally to argue faith, but I do have a question for your post: why assume anyone, at least "one who denies," cares about an "eternal life with Him"? I don't. I seek to do my good here and now because I don't believe there's anything after. Some need to feel they'll 'live' for an eternity. By the time I die, I'll just want to rest. :D :rolleyes:

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way that people reacted and treated me when I came out. I'm gay, and people at church seemed to treat me differently, my family changed the locks on me and told me what a rotten sinner I was and told me that they didn't trust me around my younger sister because I was just as 'perverted' as a child molestor. My beliefs didn't line up with the religion that had once been a major part of my life, because no matter how much I prayed, and cried, and read about it, and talked about it, I just couldn't wrap my mind around why they believe the things they do. Those events shook me pretty deeply, and I started questioning everything- I lost my sense of security and really just had a hard time believing in anything.

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That's the problem with many organized religions - too many become hung up in the 'rules' and forget the spirit of the faith (at least with the 3 big monotheist ones). Remember Christ's basic teachings and find a sect that concentrates on the loving nature of those instead of ones that take too much of the brimstone from the Old Testament.

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people offered explanations for things they couldn't understand that were then passed on and became common beliefs among groups, religions formed, numbers of believers grew and organization became necessary, and whenever there is an organization, esp. where there is some sort of hierarchy, there is also corruption and abuse of power

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Couldn't have said it beter myself.

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makes me feel like there is something more to life than skin and bones and dirt and air... like there's some sort of spiritual dimension, some sort of... something else to who we are that could cause me to feel the way I do when I'm with her, or when I see something beautiful in nature... I guess I don't really doubt that there's something more, but I question how people can get down to the specifics of their beliefs.

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Think of the meditation of the Eastern religions. Clearing one's mind to 'become one with the universe.' Atheist that I am, I can't put a spiritual spin on that, but maybe they're hearing the musical tones of the vibrating strings (string theory of quantum mechanics) <G> Since you do believe in 'something,' ;earning to meditate properly may clear your thoughts so you can connect with it (whatever it is). To some, the connection with another person is an 'earthly substitute.' Relish it - no matter what others think.

Good luck winding your way through the spiritual minefield.

Margog,

I don't have time to read all the other answers now, but I would like to tell you that No one would believe in Christianity or Islam or Judaism, the monotheistic religions, if they didn't have it indoctrinated into them as children. If an adult by some longshot of luck never heard of Christianity, for example, until he was 25, he would reject it as preposterous ancient storytelling, not as anything resembling what really happened long ago!

That does not mean you have to give up on having a "spiritual" life. Einstein wrote about his thoughts on god, not a personal god as depicted in the Bible, but different.

Best wishes,

I wasn't indoctrinated when I was growing up. When I was little I 'knew' there had to be something and nobody ever really explained it to me.