If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go? If anyone else died and left their body behind it would take years to decompose... so where is Jesus' body...
|
If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go? If anyone else died and left their body behind it would take years to decompose... so where is Jesus' body...
That was almost 2,000 years ago. It would have been decomposed by now..
Champ,
I believe Jesus(alaihi salaam) did not die but was taken to Heaven,he will return before this world ends.
He will live and die like any other human being,which would confirm that he was not God nor divine in anyway,a special human chosen by the Almighty to be a Messenger.
In the Christian faith, he rose from the dead, so his body also rose.
As Chuck posted : the christian faith has an answer to that, based on their belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
However, as this is not the Christianity board, every other belief or view is here just as valid, be that based on belief in the Unicorn, the Spaghetti Monster, or whatever else someone wants to believe or disbelieve.
There are no remains of Jesus left in any way. There are even serious doubts if a person called Jesus ever existed. Some even suggest that Jesus' existence is entirely based on myth and belief only. Whatever is true : just as Jesus' birth is based on rather debateble claims, so are his (untraceable) remains. How conveniant !
Draw your own conclusions...
And to be honest what happened to his body is about the least of the issues of faith and belief within Chrsitianity, Since even if he body had remained, it would be gone now, as any body of that time frame.
What one has is the writings of several of his followers that they saw him after his death.
Chuck is as a Christian partially right to state that what happened to Jesus' body is (for him) "about the least of the issues of faith and beleif within Chrsitianity" .
But for many others this well may be a total different matter, and therefore the question posted is a fair one.
And as I stated earlier, "there are no remains of Jesus left in any way. There are even serious doubts if a person called Jesus ever existed. Some even suggest that Jesus' existence is entirely based on myth and belief only. Whatever is true : just as Jesus' birth is based on rather debateble claims, so are his (untraceable) remains. How conveniant !"
So better draw your own conclusions from that...
;)
Each religion teaches something different. As Credendovidis has stated it all depends on your own belief and your own conclusions.
For me personally, He was taken up to heaven. His body appeared to witnesses after his death with the wounds of the cruxification.
Jesushelper76's view on this is a reply from a Christian perspective , and is based on - as he confirms himself - his Christian belief.
The non-religious facts are that Jesus's origins are highly questionable, with his father being claimed to be the Christian god, and his mother being a "virgin" till his own birth, his many "miracles"performed during his life, and his disappearance to heaven after death. And not one single iota of supported evidence for any of all these claims exists.
I respect what people believe in. However, belief is no objective support for any of the many claims on which Jesus' features and heritage are based.
The question was : "Where did his (Jesus) body go?"
The answer to that question can only be : "I believe that Jesus body ........" (and fill in whatever you believe).
If achampio21 expects some detailed information on a location, supported by some objective evidence, he is asking for the impossible.
:)
Okay. I believe in a higher power I call that higher power God. I believe that we were created somehow by God. Because even if science proves that every single living thing that exists today evolved from one tiny speck of dirt someone or something had to put that tiny speck of dirt here it didn't just appear out of nowhere. But with that said my doubts come in when the bible is brought up. Because let's say that God created the universe and all the living things in it and then created Adam and Eve. Okay fine a and dandy. BUT man created the bible. Not God. And the very bible itself says that man is of sin and can only be cleansed by having faith in God. And we all know that popes and priests and preachers and reverands who claim to be of God or whoever lie to their wives cheat on their wives molest kids and murder people and various other horrible things. So even the MOST highly acclaimed christians, Catholics and so on are lower than dirt. And also MAN created churches, not God. And if you look into most churches they basically run everything off money from members or the gov. Including their own houses, utilities and vehicles and groceries. Because most of them do not have other jobs where they receive income. So... I have HUGE doubts in a book that was written by MAN that basically tells me that I have to give ten percent of my earnings to the church or I am not a good christian when the bible states that I can be forgiven and go to heaven if I just ask God to forgive me and believe in Jesus. Adam and Eve did not have to pay the city for a marriage license or pay a preacher to marry them they just were married and so where the thousands after them. Religion itself was created by man. Everyone believes a different way. And each reliegion has it's own "bible" and "laws" if you may of it's own. But from my small amount of research Most of those laws require people such as myself to give and give and give and the only thing I get is the promise of streets of gold and kissing Jesus's face. But in the meantime the preacher of the church that I am giving to is driving a mercades and living in a 200 thousand dollar house and getting hair implants. While I am struggling to pay my bills and feed my kids and you know what that man will tell me when I come to him with my problems... We will have the church pray for you and have faith my child it will get better...
So you can see why I am very sceptical of a man written book faith that seems like the poetry scams right off the internet.
And the other thing that I find simply amazing is the people that say God gave us the intellegence to use science to find cures and make cars and television and blah blah blah but in reality WHY THE HELL WOULD GOD GIVE US INTELLEGENCE TO MAKE STUFF THAT DESTROYS WHAT HE MADE?? Seems kind of stupid to me.
Give me your ideas...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I am a she by the way:) But I am not sking for proof just thoughts! I and everyone else believe differently and I am just a curious person that wants to know everyone else's views!
Thank you for the responses!! I enjoy this so very much!!
Sorry dear for calling you a "he". Humble apologies hereby offered! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
As to your new point : the problem is that people only reply to such fundamental questions from their own worldview. A Christian will reply as per his or her Christian views, just as a Muslim will reply as per Muslim views, a Jew as per Jewish views, and a Secular Humanist as per humanistic views.
Personally I like your position. You accept and believe in a higher power, but without any linking to any human created religion or church organisation. You are therefore a deist.
A sound decision that excludes all that religious squabbling about who believes "correctly" and has "the one and only truth".
The only problem is that your acceptance of a higher power on itself is also a submission to something for which there is no objective supporting evidence, but is based on some human created "god". Just one more step, and you are a true humanist also...
As to your point "God gave us the intelligence to use ..." :
If there is a God, and that god gave that to humanity, than he/she would like us to use that capacity to the fullest, and exclude niches involving deities and worshipping of deities, while perhaps exclude the capacity to hurt others in any possible way.
The reality of life is that intelligence came with our need to be better and smarter , and to have an edge on others, and gain from that capacity, and therefore to use that intelligence at the expense of others. Humans are just smart apes, with a thin layer of ethical veneer that is only microns thick. That is why there are wars, hurt, and pain.
Your "American dream" is based on that edge to be better than others, and lift yourself above the average.
For me that shows that deities do not exist, but it is up to everyone to draw his or her own decision!
;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I guess I never really thought of me believing in a higher power being because society has created that belief. But I do see your point. If the thought of a higher power had never been planted into my mind would I have ever believed in it?. I doubt it.. but I also have these two things that make me a firm believer in a higher power...
Do you feel emotion? Love, joy, sadness, pain... Yes of course you do. If not then I am very sorry:) But my point is this what proof is there of emotion other than feeling? NONE! There is proof of REACTIONS to feelings but none of feelings themselves. So I ask you how do you know are happy? You FEEL it. How do you know you are sad? Because you FEEL it.
Also my other is the fact that I have given birth to 3 beautiful children. And I realize that sperm and egg join together and then the fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterus and so then begins the process of new life... but after the nine months is over and the mood swings and the hard labor and the pushing is over I was OVERWHELMED with such an intense feeling of... I can't even give it a title because it can't be described. I mean holding a baby that grew inside my very own body and is alive only because I fed him/her and basically allowed him/her to live was so amazing that I don't think I could EVER doubt some higher power. I mean do you really think I as a woman who has given birth 3 times could credit a mere man with that kind of amazing power!! ( no offense intended :))
But yes I agree with your thoughts. I have no idea what the definition of a deist or humanist is.. if you care to take the time to enlighten me I would be delighted. But I think how I think and I am always open to others ideas!!
That was beautiful!Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
I just had to tell you that was a beautiful thought.:)
Mere man cannot accomplish such feats without an Almighty.:)
I'm a guy, we have 2 children, I have the same feelings for my children as you do. I'm atheist by the way so in my case it has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with loving my kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
First of all I meant no affense to "men" in particular. Simply mankind as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
And I don't know much about atheist except that they don't believe in a "god". But my question is this...
If you don't believe in a higher power, and like I said I am not familiar with your belief, then how do you believe is the way in how we got here? I am simply curious.
And I have no doubt that you love your kids, I was simply stating that in my own PERSONAL experience it made me believe even more in my God. You believe how you want.
Thank you firmbeliever. It was a moment of tears, laughter, pain, and pretty much every single emotion you could ever feel that is good wrapped up into one amazing moment. That's about the best description I can give it.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Other than my parents made me, I don't think about some guy in the sky waving his hand and all life appeared. I don't sit around and wonder where we all came from, I go out and live life and share living with others. Life isn't that complicated in my world; I control my life. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
Interesting.
Then I am curious. If you believe that YOU control your own life, how do cope when a tornado that YOU didn't create rips your house to shreds?
That's weather related: cold fronts, warm fronts, high pressure, low pressure. Do you think every breath of wind is generated by a god?
Look. I am not being a sarcastic a**. I am seriously curious about what others think!
I did a Google search on religions and found over 50 different types of religions! I found out that there is even a "religion' called Hellinism! I mean for crying out loud how many different kinds of religion are there!! And I am extremely curious in those that don't believe in a higher power because I want to know how they think is the way that life was started!
Because just like needkarma did they avoid my question and give a generalized statement that is degrading to my own belief when I was NEVER degrading to theirs!
Either people are EXTREMELY sensitive on this topic or they don't even know what they believe and don't want to talk about it because they themselves are confused.!
I feel like I am asking the parent of a raped little boy to tell me all the gory details!!
If you truly believe in it then why is it soo damn hard to talk about it!!!!!!!
I'm not sure what set you off here. I simply answered your question. I never degraded your belief.
No but you did evade my question. You never told me how you believe we got here you simply stated how you Don't believe we got here.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I answered your question. We got here because our parents made us. I also added that how I don't think about how man started by evolution is the best bet so far.
Okay. Well I guess I want to know how you believe the very first human or organism or speck of dirt or whatever got here. Or do you just not think about that because no one has figured it out yet as far as proof of no higher power or whatever?
I guess I want to know how non-believers explain life's existence when they are asked about it. How do you explain how the very first anything was created?
I answered already - we don't know but we don't attribute it to an unseen force.
Okay. You never said that you didn't know all you said is "I don't sit around and wonder where we all came from..."
So "We don't know" is a better answer for me. Thank you.
Champ,
Regarding atheist views on life
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/spirit...s+dont+believe
Part of the issues is that just within Christianity, there are 100's of different types of but almost all have some basic faiths on Jesus and what he did, and what happened to his body.
The issue after that is except for Islam, none of the other include Jesus at all, some may allow him to be a prophet of another religion but many will like to claim he does not exist.
So if you ask anyone but a christian, to them christ did not even exist, so there is no body, So if you are asking about Jesus, the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
Non-religious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Aren't you contradicting yourself? You just objected to Fr. Chuck because he commented on behalf of the Christian perspective on this religious board. But you are commenting on a religious board on behalf of the non-religious. Therefore, who has more rights here on this other religious forum, the non-religious or Fr. Chuck?
Oh, and non-religious opinions are not facts. They are simply opinions.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Was then a spirit? Jesus was spiritualized in His resurrected body, but He was not a Spirit:Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
John 21:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you. 27 Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.
Jesus proved to Thomas that His body was real by putting his finger in His wound.
Luke 24 36 Now whilst they were speaking these things, Jesus stood in the midst of them, and saith to them: Peace be to you; it is I, fear not. 37 But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 But while they yet believed not, and wondered for joy, he said: Have you any thing to eat? 42 And they offered him a piece of a broiled fish, and a honeycomb. 43 And when he had eaten before them, taking the remains, he gave to them.
But Jesus didn't leave His body behind. According to Scripture, Jesus ascended into heaven in His human body:Quote:
If anyone else died and left their body behind it would take years to decompose... so where is Jesus' body...
Acts 1 6 They therefore who were come together, asked him, saying: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power: 8 But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments.
11 Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day's journey.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Nobody and no view have more "rights" here or anywhere else. Believe whatever you like to believe. But whatever you BELIEVE , realize that it is BELIEF. It only becomes a fact once you provide objective supporting evidence for whatever you claim to be "true" !Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Opinions are never facts. They are opinions. The difference between religious and non-religious views is that the first is based on BELIEF only, and the non-religious views are often based on facts and/or the lack of facts that should be provided for religious views - if believers claim them to be "the one and only truth".Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The reality is that believers claim something without being capable of providing even the smallest iota of objective supporting evidence for what they claim. Ever.
Non-believers do not have to prove that the religious CLAIMS are incorrect. Claims are just claims, and so far I have never seen any objective supporting evidence for any of the basic and essential religious claims by religions. Like the Christian-Judean God exists, the Bible is based on God's words, Jesus was the son of God, etc.
Draw your own conclusion from that...
Link to : Some good reading on belief in God/Gods and the reality of belief.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
This lead's Question :Reaction De Maria :Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
That is nittpicking. The question is clear and straightforward. You are deliberately sidestepping the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
"According to Scripture" : that is BELIEF. Can you provide objective supporting evidence that that really happened? Again you are deliberately sidestepping the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Christ never existed. Christ is not a person, but a title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Jesus of Nazareth may have existed, but there is no real objective supported evidence for that. Even for that !
This non-theist is hardly interested if Jesus existed or not. Your statement is (therefore) incorrect. And I am not the only one : for me and most other non-theists the only thing that is relevant is that there is no objective supporting evidence for :
1 - God/Gods exist.
2 - The Christian - Judean God exists, and has the powers as claimed in the Bible.
3 - God is the real author of the Bible.
4 - Jesus is the son of God.
5 - Jesus with God and the Holly Spirit are one and the same.
As to the original question in this lead : Jesus' body is claimed to have gone to heaven.
There is no objective supporting evidence for that claim.
It is based on BELIEF and nothing else.
You stated : the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
That is what you BELIEVE... But is it the truth? Can you prove that with objective supporting evidence ?
.
My belief achamp according to the scriptures, is that Jesus fleshly body was taken by God after his burial in the tomb, fulfilling the words at Psa 16:10 - "You will not leave my body in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit." If God had left Jesus fleshly body in the tomb 1) his disciples would not have fully understood him being raised up if they saw his body as they didn't yet fully appreciate spiritual things. 2) it was likely that his body or parts of it would be used for worship or exploitation.
During the next 40 days that he appeared in fleshly bodies, they were obviously different to his original as Mary didn't recognise him and neither did two of his disciples while walking to Emmaus, although the body he appeared to Thomas in was very similar with holes in the hands and side for that was the only way Thomas said he would believe in Jesus being alive again.
Whether he took his physical body to heaven is answered by Paul who states in 1 Cor 15:44,50 "It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body...flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom." In other words, only spirit beings with spiritual bodies can reside in the heavens. Human bodies are intended for the earth.
Incidentally, there seems to be well over 30,000 different denominations who claim to be christian, which makes up 1/3rd of the worlds population. Hindus and muslims make up another 3rd and the rest are non-religious, Buddhist, Jewish, new-religionist etc.
Good onya for being curious! Never hurts to ask questions right? :)
achampio21 posted the following question :
If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go?
Once that question became really interesting when RESPECTFUL but different views from all directions were added, the question and all reactions to it suddenly disappeared from this board.
Does this really suggest board censorship ? There was nothing that gave reason for this action! Let's hope this lead was accidental unintended deleted...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
My reply (post 32) contained reactions to 3 statements : De Maria , achampio21 , and Fr_Chuck.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Nobody and no view have more "rights" here or anywhere else. Believe whatever you like to believe. But whatever you BELIEVE , realize that it is BELIEF. It only becomes a fact once you provide objective supporting evidence for whatever you claim to be "true" !Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Opinions are never facts. They are just opinions. The difference between religious and non-religious views is that the first is based on BELIEF only, and the non-religious views are often based on facts and/or the lack of facts that should be provided for religious views - if believers claim them to be "the one and only truth".Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The reality is that believers claim something as the "one and only truth" without being capable of providing even the smallest iota of objective supporting evidence for what they claim. Ever.
Non-believers do not have to prove that the religious CLAIMS are incorrect. Claims are just claims, and so far I have never seen any objective supporting evidence for any of the basic and essential religious claims by religions. Like the Christian-Judean God exists, the Bible is based on God's words, Jesus was the son of God, etc.
Draw your own conclusion from that...
Some good reading on belief in God/Gods and the reality of belief.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Originally Posted by achampio21 : "If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go?"
ReactionMy reaction to De Maria : That is nittpicking. The question is clear and straightforward. You are deliberately sidestepping the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
My reaction to De Maria : "According to Scripture" : that is BELIEF. Can you provide objective supporting evidence that that really happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Again you are deliberately sidestepping the question.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Fr_Chuck (Super Moderator) stated in that lead on 1 June 2008 , 11:46 PM (post #29) :
My reaction to Fr_Chuck :Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Christ never existed. Christ is not a person, but a title.
Jesus of Nazareth may have existed, but there is no real objective supported evidence for that. Even for that !
This non-theist is hardly interested if Jesus existed or not. Your statement is therefore incorrect. And I am not the only one : for most other non-theists the only thing that is relevant is that there is no objective supporting evidence for :
1 - God/Gods exist.
2 - The Christian - Judean God exists, and has the powers as claimed in the Bible.
3 - God is the real author of the Bible.
4 - Jesus is the son of God.
5 - Jesus with God and the Holly Spirit are one and the same.
As to the original question in this lead : Jesus' body is claimed to have gone to heaven.
There is no objective supporting evidence for that claim.
It is based on BELIEF and nothing else.
You stated : the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
That is what you BELIEVE... But is it the truth? Can you prove that with objective supporting evidence ?
.
.
.
So referring to this last reaction to Fr_Chuck :
.
As stated : Jesus may have existed as a real person but Christ was not a person but a title
What is your opinion ?
Don't start with this rubbish!Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
The thread was simply MOVED here as it has turned into a discussion.
I await your apology.
Also I would like to clear up the rights comment.
There are ZERO rights conferred, either implicitly or implied, anywhere on AMHD.
ALL members are free to post anywhere on the site, as long as said posts comply with AMHD's TOS.
I have no problem apologizing for that. Sorry ! Had you left somewhere a note that the thread was moved, my comments would even have been understanding and supportive. How could anyone know that you MOVED it ? There was nowhere any information about that move !Quote:
Originally Posted by Curlyben
With all respect : that is only partially true. At several occations I have been warned that my respectful replies to christian questions on the Christianity board were not welcome, because I am not a Christian. Is there a different rule for that board, perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Curlyben
All links to this thread would automatically direct people here so no move announcement is needed.
Also:
Reread EXACTLY what I have written on this subject and DON'T imply things that aren't there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Okay. Awesome. So far I have found out this much...
In the christian religion Jesus died on the cross, was buried, rose from the dead and his body and all went to Heaven.
In atheist religion well I pretty much have figured that they don't believe in anything. They live day to day and believe they can for the most part control their destiny.
I have also found that religion is a pretty vague and VERY broad subject.
As I stated earlier I believe in a higher power. God is the title I choose. I believe in Him for my own reasons. The bible to me is a man made structure that just like any man-made structure has been altered, changed, and made to fit the conditions of a particular time-frame. And with time will break down just like any other man-made structure. Now I'm not saying the whole thing is a sham, but I have serious doubts in a majority of it's content. Just like how the old and new testament contradict themselves.
I think everyone should and can believe in whatever they want. But I have a lot of questions and doubts that talking to preachers and the like haven't answered. Just about every christian I talk to wants to kind of walk around my questions and direct me to the bible. But I know I have found contracdicting scripture on several subjects. Where it will say one thing in one part and the opposite in another part. Not to mention the bible itself is written like a legal agreement with any court is written... confusing. It can't just say...
God is God. Here is what He did. Here is what He made. Here is a son that He created. Here is what his son did. And now the same people that worshipped Him have had Him killed. Oh, and now He is alive again. And there He goes to be with God. But He will be back someday.
No it was written so 500 people could take it's meaning completely out of context and debate it and argue certain views. It was written so that you could 20 different religions all based on one freakin book. But every single one of them believe differently.
I just don't get it. I think it is perfectly OK for me to believe in God and not go to church and not give money to a church that will abuse it anyway. And I don't need everyone praying for me because if he hears everyone He can hear me by myself just fine.
So I don't know. I am just asking questions and getting feedback. I guess if the Christian faith believes that Jesus' body and all went up to Heaven my next questions would be: where is Heaven and how long until Jesus got there and if he was alive enough for people to touch him then he was still "alive" when he went to Heaven right. And if that is the case then can he walk in Heaven or did he change to a spirit when he got there?where in the bible does it answer those questions? I mean it can go on and on.
Okay, I found this on the board that firmbeliever directed me too. And I really liked it so I am copying it here because it won't let me quote user that way... or I just don't know how yet.. lol
Originally posted by michaelb on different board for different question:
"Why would you believe? There have been so many gods over the course of humanity that we can't even keep count. Why does anyone of them deserve your worship more than the other."
I am glad you found that thread.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
Just to let you know that my answers are from an Islamic viewpoint (sorry forgot to mention that in my earlier post).
Thanks firmbeliever. Islamic is one religion I am not at all familiar with. But I am interested in all of them.
To De Maria:
You stated that all the previous gods never had eyewitness accounts and Jesus had many. Well I have this comment on the eyewitness thing...
You go to Wal-mart and pick up any tabloid and I can guarantee you that you will find a bunch of eyewitness accounts to the lockness monster, to alien encounters, to mermaids, to babies with five heads, etc etc. Why should we believe in the eyewitness accounts that Jesus existed and rose and that he was alive again because someone put their finger in the hole in his hand and then he went up to heaven, but not that unicorns and mermaids and lockness monsters and alien encounters and five headed babies aren't real? Those all have "eyewitness" accounts too.
And I am starting to get the feeling that firmbeliever is the only that is still talking to me on this thread...
Didn't want to start a right or wrong debate.. just wanted each person's opinions and beliefs. No one is right or wrong. Everyone just feels they way they feel. That goes with everything. I don't like cheese, but you might. I don't believe in same-sex or interracial relationships, but you might. Who cares. Let's just talk about it and maybe we will learn some things we never knew. :)
I believe Fr. Chuck is a moderator on this forum. What gives you more say than he as to what is acceptable on this forum? Are you a moderator also? And if so, do you outrank Fr. Chuck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Wrong on both counts. Religious people base their beliefs on many facts.Quote:
Opinions are never facts. They are opinions. The difference between religious and non-religious views is that the first is based on BELIEF only, and the non-religious views are often based on facts
And, non-religious people frequently don't believe that God exists. Yet, they can't prove that God exists. That is an opinion, not a fact.
This is speculative. What believers should provide is up to them to decide. It is not written anywhere that we must provide anything.Quote:
and/or the lack of facts that should be provided for religious views - if believers claim them to be "the one and only truth".
Not true. As believers in God, we see a wonderful world which presence can only be explained by the wisdom of God.Quote:
The reality is that believers claim something without being capable of providing even the smallest iota of objective supporting evidence for what they claim. Ever.
And non-believers in God, actually believe whatever comes down the pike. I don't know what variation of non-belief you subscribe to, so I'll withhold comment until you divulge your beliefs.
But they do need to prove that their claims are correct.Quote:
Non-believers do not have to prove that the religious CLAIMS are incorrect.
That is fine. It isn't because you haven't seen it. It is because you reject it.Quote:
Claims are just claims, and so far I have never seen any objective supporting evidence for any of the basic and essential religious claims by religions. Like the Christian-Judean God exists, the Bible is based on God's words, Jesus was the son of God, etc.
Study the doctrine of suffering, it will tell you why God doesn't heal amputees:Quote:
Draw your own conclusion from that...
Link to : Some good reading on belief in God/Gods and the reality of belief.
Catholic Culture : Library : Problem Of Suffering Reconsidered, The
Not so, it is a correction of a false assumption. The OP assumes that Jesus came back as a Spirit. But Jesus Himself says He is not a Spirit only, but a Spirit with a body.Quote:
This lead's Question :
Reaction De Maria :
That is nittpicking. The question is clear and straightforward. You are deliberately sidestepping the question.
True, but that is belief supported by evidence. Eyewitness testimony is considered evidence in every court in the world. Scripture, the Gospels in this case, are the eyewitness testimony of Jesus' contemporaries who witnessed His Resurrection.Quote:
"According to Scripture" : that is BELIEF.
Again, eyewitness testimony substantiated by four witnesses is completely objective. You consider it subjective only because the finding disagrees with your subjective rejection of the evidence.Quote:
Can you provide objective supporting evidence that that really happened?
Nope. I corrected the false assumption and then I addressed the question.Quote:
Again you are deliberately sidestepping the question.
Certainly, if you believe the evidence, He did and does exist.Quote:
Christ never existed.
Both actually. Jesus, the Christ, is the anointed One. He is a person.Quote:
Christ is not a person, but a title.
Of course, the word Christ, is also a title which is given the Messiah who happens to be Jesus.
Actually, there are literally volumes. Besides the volumes in the Bible, there are the customs and cultures who have preserved his place of birth, of suffering, of preaching, of crucifixion and much other information to substantiate the written and oral accounts.Quote:
Jesus of Nazareth may have existed, but there is no real objective supported evidence for that. Even for that !
And there are the volumes written based on His teaching by those whom He taught and those taught by them.
Really? You seem quite interested in disproving His existence.Quote:
This non-theist is hardly interested if Jesus existed or not.
Huh? You just said you weren't interested and Fr. Chuck said:Quote:
Your statement is (therefore) incorrect.
So if you aren't interested, why do you care?Quote:
to them christ did not even exist, so there is no body,
There is objective evidence for all of that. You just don't accept the evidence. Two different things.Quote:
And I am not the only one : for me and most other non-theists the only thing that is relevant is that there is no objective supporting evidence for :
1 - God/Gods exist.
2 - The Christian - Judean God exists, and has the powers as claimed in the Bible.
3 - God is the real author of the Bible.
4 - Jesus is the son of God.
5 - Jesus with God and the Holly Spirit are one and the same.
Eyewitness testimony.Quote:
As to the original question in this lead : Jesus' body is claimed to have gone to heaven.
There is no objective supporting evidence for that claim.
Everything is based on belief. You have your set of beliefs which includes your belief that Christ did not exist.Quote:
It is based on BELIEF
And that describes your belief. You have a belief with no evidence because you reject the evidence which is provided.Quote:
and nothing else.
Well, the Bible is already objective evidence. But we also have the Church and the many teachings of Christ which have been carried by Tradition. And the artifacts left from His time on earth and many other things which we can discuss.Quote:
You stated : the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
That is what you BELIEVE... But is it the truth? Can you prove that with objective supporting evidence ?
.
Sincerely,
De Maria
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by achampio21
Hm? Hard to explain.Quote:
You stated that all the previous gods never had eyewitness accounts and Jesus had many. Well I have this comment on the eyewitness thing...
You go to Wal-mart and pick up any tabloid and I can guarantee you that you will find a bunch of eyewitness accounts to the lockness monster, to alien encounters, to mermaids, to babies with five heads, etc etc. Why should we believe in the eyewitness accounts that Jesus existed and rose and that he was alive again because someone put their finger in the hole in his hand and then he went up to heaven, but not that unicorns and mermaids and lockness monsters and alien encounters and five headed babies aren't real? Those all have "eyewitness" accounts too.
First I should tell you that my Catholic faith teaches me to have faith in other human beings as well as in God.
2 Timothy 2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.
Therefore, I don't automatically discount something because it sounds incredible. So, I believe that many of those things which people report to have seen may be "real".
So, lets compare the eyewitness testimony of the Gospels to the eyewitness testimony of these phenomenon.
1. The Apostles spent at least three years walking and talking with Jesus. They didn't just see Him in a glimpse. They knew Him intimately. They didn't just witness one miracle. They witnessed almost all of His miracles and they participated in many of them as well.
So, its kind of like comparing your knowledge of your parents, whom you lived with, vs some stranger who passed by and saw your two adults standing outside your house.
Does that make sense?
2. The motive. The Apostles went to their graves and never denied Christ. Either they were all crazy or they were telling the truth. I vote they were telling the truth.
How many of these eyewitnesses in these magazines do you think might be banking on a bit of profit for a harmless story about something out of the ordinary?
3. Why do I believe they were telling the truth. Because I have read their teachings, they have affected and changed my life and I have FAITH in them. In other words, just as I have faith that my parents love me, I have faith that the Apostles love me and want the best for me.
4. Finally, I believe many of those people who saw weird things are telling the truth. Many of them are not profiting from their witness and too many of them are saying it for it all to be made up. Besides, in this high tech world, many of them have footage of what they saw. Do you remember the ufos in Mexico City?
The one I remember was live footage on Mexican television from different cameras at the same time and showed the objects sitting still and moving. And this occurred for days in a row.
Were all these people faking the same thing at the same time? Why? So I believe something was there. Whether it was from alien technology or some secret human technology I can't tell you.
So, the wise saying in the Scripture is relevant here:
1 Thessalonians 5 21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Okay. Good point.
I guess I just wonder about the writings in the bible. Because I know for a fact that the leaders of churches can and do abuse religion to profit just like some of the people in the tabloids. So I just wonder if some of the bible is exaggerated to benefit someone. It IS possible, but I am finding out that basically the christian religion is based on faith and the scripture. But you have to have faith that the scripture you read is real or it means nothing.
And what I think I know of catholics is that they focus more on the saints and Mary and not so much on Jesus. Is that right? And why is there such a broad difference between catholics and christians if you both basically believe in the same things?
HAHA! I just realized something reading back over my posts!! I kind of sound like a 4 or 5 year old asking mommy and daddy how babies get here!!
Sorry. I just thought laughing at myself would be funny for everyone!! :))
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:35 PM. |