Hello Christians:

An 11-year-old Wisconsin girl grew deathly ill recently while her parents prayed for her recovery. They weren't in a hospital. They weren't in an emergency room. They were in their home. Although the girl had probably, for at least a month, shown symptoms such vomiting, nausea and extreme thirst — all signs of a diabetic condition — they refused to call a doctor.

"We stayed fast in prayer," the mother told the media. "We believed that she would recover."

Instead, the girl died.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says that doctors are evil, a heathen concept, an insult to your faith? Until then, these cases of adults allowing children to suffer — in some cases, die — in the name of true believing is nothing more than killing while on your knees.

excon

A sad, sad story. I saw it.

The actions (lack of action) of those parents is not Christian, period. KKK Members claim to be Christian too.

Neither KKK members nor parents who fail to give proper medical care to their children are not Christians even if they say they are.

It doesn't make sense to me. I've never been able to understand how "Christian" parents could prevent their children from receiving proper medical attention. Innocent children die needlessly. These children should be protected from their parents' religious beliefs until they are of legal age to decide for themselves what THEIR OWN religious beliefs are.

I agree with you excon.

Read my thread I posted about this disturbing news.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/other-...se-199226.html

These people are idiots
Jesus considered doctors his intructors.

And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.Luke 2-46

However ;in the cases in the bible where physicians are called upon to heal they do not get the job done ;especially in the OT see the story of Job . Also let's not forget that healing in those days was often performed by the clerics .

However that was then and this is now . They were acting criminally negliigent and should be treated as such. </SPAN>

Hello again:

I don't mean to paint all Christians with this broad brush, and I'm glad you're speaking out.

There's an old story that goes something like this: A fisherman is drowning. He prays to God to save him. A boat comes and offers him a rope. "No, God will save me," he says. Another boat comes. "God will save me," he repeats. A third boat. Same thing. Finally, he drowns.

When he gets to heaven, he's upset. He asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" And God says, "I sent you three boats."

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I don't mean to paint all Christians with this broad brush, and I'm glad you're speaking out.

There's an old story that goes something like this: A fisherman is drowning. He prays to God to save him. A boat comes and offers him a rope. "No, God will save me," he says. Another boat comes. "God will save me," he repeats. A third boat. Same thing. Finally, he drowns.

When he gets to heaven, he's upset. He asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" And God says, "I sent you three boats."

excon

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Excon,
I love that story, and what a great analogy. No where in the bible does it say doctors are bad or you shouldn't seek medical attention.

God gives doctors the ability to help people.
Prayer is wonderful.
Pray for God to give you the doctor that will be able to help you.
God is doing the healing through prayer and through doctors.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I don't mean to paint all Christians with this broad brush, and I'm glad you're speaking out.

There's an old story that goes something like this: A fisherman is drowning. He prays to God to save him. A boat comes and offers him a rope. "No, God will save me," he says. Another boat comes. "God will save me," he repeats. A third boat. Same thing. Finally, he drowns.

When he gets to heaven, he's upset. He asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" And God says, "I sent you three boats."

excon

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First time I ever heard that. It was great

I feel everything happens for a reason and only God above knows what those reasons are. There are Doctors here for a purpose and if they were not suppost to be used, why are they here. Children look up to their parents for survival and agree with last answer, Pray for the right Dr and it will be answered.

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Originally Posted by Donna Mae

God is doing the healing through prayer and through doctors.

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That might explain why some doctors act like God.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Christians:

An 11-year-old Wisconsin girl grew deathly ill recently while her parents prayed for her recovery. They weren't in a hospital. They weren't in an emergency room. They were in their home. Although the girl had probably, for at least a month, shown symptoms such vomiting, nausea and extreme thirst — all signs of a diabetic condition — they refused to call a doctor.

"We stayed fast in prayer," the mother told the media. "We believed that she would recover."

Instead, the girl died.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says that doctors are evil, a heathen concept, an insult to your faith? Until then, these cases of adults allowing children to suffer — in some cases, die — in the name of true believing is nothing more than killing while on your knees.

excon

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Hi ex
People who take " religion to the letter" makes me extremely angry especially when a life is at risk. Why on earth do they think the good guy upstairs gave us a brain, it was so we could learn and absorb the knowledge we need to sustain life.

This reminds me of a similar incident many years ago yet again down to religious believes where a family needed to give permission for their four year old to have a blood transfusion that would save his life, they also said the lord will cure him but sadley he died, they were our next door neighbours at the time and I was very young but it is still imprinted in my mind he was a lovely little child and we all used to play together, we then moved and never saw the family again, it was very sad.

This I cannot understand no matter which way it is dressed up, what is the point in providing medications to cure people if they are turned down. I know some peoples believes are some what different to my own and I respect that but surely anyone would move heaven and earth to save a child or any other human being if it was in their power to do so,I know I would. What a wonderful gift to have the knowledge to save a life, which of course in my opinion is how it's suppose to be

I feel for this entire situation. Even the parents. Their minds and hearts are in some kind of tunnel, that has indicated to them that this is the way... the only way.. So heartbreaking.

No ex, you can not paint all Christians with the same brush that's for sure. Many of the threads on here should indicate that.

God has blessed each individual with talents... Doctors, nurses, singers, plumbers, you name it.

My prayers are with this family, and Bless their souls, their minds and hearts and beliefs are in a place that is so unrecognizable to us.

God will shine on all of them.

I don't understand this way of thinking, but when you are taught something from knee high on up, over and over, it becomes a true belief for you.

I don't dare fault these parents, of course, I don't agree, but I just am not in the "place" where they are.

May all have some sort of peace someday - and may their parents eyes and hearts open to the fact, that God blesses each of us, so we can then help each other, with the gifts we are given.

Just hearbreaking.

If you truly believe that when you die you go to a better place. Why would you prevent your child from going to a better place. If I knew I could send my child to a paradise even if I could not go with them, I would do it. That's why I think Christians that seek medical attention for themselves but then preach about how good heaven is when you die are hypocrites. Why would you actively delay going to paradise? Unless of course you don't believe your own rhetoric.

I have heard the leaving your child die and go to heaven argument but I do not think Michealb or the JW's are right to leave the door open for your child to die like that.
That is like the people who practice putting their arm in a snake pit and if they get bit and die it was God's will. If you are not suppose to do what is needed to preserve life then all Christians should be killing off their kids so they do not delay going to paradise. Maybe they should be the pro abortionists!
Why did Jesus heal the sick if you are just suppose to leave them to die so they can get to paradise quicker.
Misguided is all I can say!

Hi NOhelp

Yes I can see your point, after all the medication was there to save this child, there is a choice as to whether it is accepted or not.

I do not say this lightly as my son went through an identical situation and he almost died had it not been for the emergency services and the immediate diagnosis of Diabetis.
It was still touch and go but I thank god for the hospitals quick response and the fact that the knowledge of insulin had been discovered to save my son's life.

This is what I have said before in previous posts, I believe that cures for various conditions are there for us to study and use for all who need them, I just wish that there was a cure for every other serious condition which could benefit everyone world wide.

MY heart goes out to this family and others like them for they truly believe what they are doing is right- like we all do- maybe they still do I don't know, perhaps they think that this was meant to be for what ever the reason.As I have said I was in the same situation and I would have given my own life so's my son could have lived if necessary, that's what you do when it's your kids, don't you!.

I hope that there faith supports them and keeps them strong for they are obviously extremley devoted which is to be commended but I will never understand.

Out right killing your kid would be a sin because thou shall not kill is a commandment. (Although some Christians have reasoned that it was okay to kill their children while they were innocent to make sure they go to heaven even if it means the parent goes to hell) There isn't a commandment that says you should cure the sick though. If god created everything then everything is god's will. If you believe everything is god's will then if god wishes to call you back to heaven, who are you to deny his will. Why would you want to? If when you die you go to a paradise why would do anything to delay going to paradise? When I get plane tickets to the Caribbean I don't get to the airport and turn around because I want to go back to work. So when Christians are given a ticket to heaven if you believe your own rhetoric why not get on the plane?

To me, holding back on getting a child medical help is the same as killing because it could very well have saved the child's life. By withholding treatment it is participating in their death just as much as Jack Koverkian assisting the elderly in dying. Jack Koverkian I would even have to agree with his mercy killings more so because they have lived their life and gave their consent whereas these children are at the mercy of their parents deciding to let them die.

There is no way that this would be God's will.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

There is no way that this would be God's will.

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It may not have been his will, but the fact the girl died says he didn't care. An all powerful god who doesn't prevent this from happening makes him just as responsible for the death as the parent/s.

It doesn't mean God didn't care because God gives us our free will no matter how foolishly we use it we have to live with the consequences.
If you are drowning and somebody reaches out to save you and you say no thank you I am trusting God to get me out of this it is not God's fault. He proved us with knowledge and options to use.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

It doesn't mean God didn't care because God gives us our free will no matter how foolishly we use it we have to live with the consequences.
If you are drowning and somebody reaches out to save you and you say no thank you I am trusting God to get me out of this it is not God's fault. He proved us with knowledge and options to use.

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It wasn't the girls choice, it was the parents.

And??
That makes it worse I would think because like I said earlier the child didn't have a choice so the parents should be making the choice for her to live. They should not be gambling with her life.

Excellent post, I want to make some comments. I also want to say that I did not read anybody else's response yet.

These stories sickens me. Yes, it is good to have faith and pray. At the same time, I can point to many bible passages that speak about how the sick are in need of doctors. Doctors have been given the skill and gift to help and heal sick people. That is why they are there.

There are other books of the bible that mention about doctors and how we should rely on them when we are sick, does not mean we are lacking faith.

Why do people have to prove their faith to others by killing their children. It is manslaughter as far as I am concerned and each of these people who insist on no medical treatment should be charged.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

Why do people have to prove their faith to others by killing their children. It is manslaughter as far as I am concerned and each of these people who insist on no medical treatment should be charged.

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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

And???
That makes it worse I would think because like I said earlier the child didn't have a choice so the parents should be making the choice for her to live. They should not be gambling with her life.

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This is so twisted it's not even funny. Your telling me that if you had the power to prevent this little girls death, you wouldn't have because her parents were stupid??

That's absurd on so many levels. There is no good reason for an all powerful, loving, caring God to watch something like that happen.

No I never said anything like that!
I said the parents are misguided and they should have never done anything like that.
I said they should have been responsible and got her help to try and save her life.
I said a child is at the mercy of the parents and they made the wrong decision.
I said that their stupidity is not God's fault because he gave us free will.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

No I never said anything like that!
I said the parents are misguided and they should have never done anything like that.
I said they should have been responsible and got her help to try and save her life.
I said a child is at the mercy of the parents and they made the wrong decision.
I said that their stupidity is not God's fault because he gave us free will.

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Exactly, God LET the girl die because the PARENTS were stupid. I didn't have a problem reading what you said, I had a problem with the logic of what I read. Free will is not the issue here because the person who died is not the person who desided not to go to the hospital.

The parents had the free will to get the child help and they did not.
The parents let the child die.

God did not let anybody die onan, That is full of crap.

Each individual is responsible for their own actions.

Stop passing the buck. The only ones that were responsible for the girls death were the parents.

That is the end of that. There should not be any argument or discussion it is a fact.

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Each individual is responsible for their own actions.

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It was the PARENTS who didn't take the kid to the hospital, the GIRL didn't have a choice.

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Stop passing the buck.

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I'm not, GOD let her die. If this wasn't true, she would be alive.

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Originally Posted by Onan

GOD let her die. If this wasn't true, she would be alive.

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This is exactly how the parent's thought. Which humans should recognize is WRONG.

Onan, if your child had a broken arm would you do nothing and just let God heal it?

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Originally Posted by RickJ

Onan, if your child had a broken arm would you do nothing and just let God heal it?

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But if this is not the case then why are there such things as prayers circles? What's the point of that?

I did not notice Onan's previous posts... I see now he is not advocating doing nothing.

Sorry if this counts as a tangent (I can't decide)...

If you believe in the Christian Heaven and Hell system, which one do you believe these parents would go to?

I can't believe anyone could be capable of watching their child die. And if it was diabetes I, then that is a particularly nasty way to go.

Scary stuff...

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

There is no way that this would be God's will.

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So you decide what is god's will now? God is suppose to be all powerful. If I had the power to protect the innocent, I would be required to use it. If I saw a man beating a child and I knew I could prevent that man from beating that child but instead I walked away and did nothing it would be just as much my will that the child be beaten as the man that was beating the child in the first place.

When you have absolute power over everything. Then everything that happens is your will.

Hi onan, have to disagree with you there the parents were given the choice of accepting a cure for their daughter just as I was for my son, I chose the cure because as I have previously said I believe these cures are there for us to discover and use for our benefit, the parents of this child declined.

There are many things that we are responsible for, one of which is WAR another FAMINE and so on, this is MAN hurting himself we aii have FREE WILL to do what we choose and stand by those decisions.

If you take the religious angle you could say that God had already intervened by providing the emergency services, hospital care and medication to cure this child, if religion had not been an issue with this family they would have taken their child to hospital as a matter of course, in both instances there is provision for cure depending how you look at it but still this family chose to ignore any provision for cure no matter what the origin.

They have total tunnel vision obviously inflicted by their religion which in my opinion is wrong, many rules have been added by man for want of power, you don't need a set of rules for believing in the good guy upstairs your own heart tells you the difference between right and wrong, good and bad and I'm sure deep down human intuition was whispering for them to go to the hospital but for fear of what might happen if they did they chose to ignore it.

Exactly Orphan

God warns us that his people die for lack for knowledge
God says be wise and use good judgment and not be foolish

God created natural laws WITH consequences. You trip-you fall, you don't take care of yourself your health reflects that.
If a parent wants to exercise their faith they should do it on their own self not an innocent child. They can jump off a roof or jump out in front of a hungry tiger to see if they have that faith they think they have.
Just seeing all the children die in the Jehovah Witness church should tell you if your child gets sick get the necessary care.
If having faith in God means neglect to prove faith then a Christian parent should be able to let their two year old child go play in traffic and just trust God that it won't get hit with a Mac truck.
Personally I believe that God made herbs for our healing and that should be the first resort before the doctor if and when possible but I believe you are responsible for the diligent care of your child no matter what.


Why do they have prayer circles? Most prayer circles I have been in pray "Lord direct the doctor on healing the child during surgery and have the child well and happy and able to continue with their life and touch the child. Thank you for the doctors."

I wish ETW was here because he explains it best!

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Originally Posted by RickJ

I did not notice Onan's previous posts... I see now he is not advocating doing nothing.

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Exactly, I don't believe a God had anything to do with it at all. I think the parents should both go to prison.

HOWEVER,,

If I was to believe in an all powerful God, I would say he could have easily/should have done something to let the child live. Punishing a child for doing nothing wrong is just as bad as the parents not taking the kid to the hospital.

The free will argument is boloney and they know it. It's absurd because the person who died was never given a chance by her parents or by God. Where in the Bible does it say free will is taken from someone because of someone else's stupidity? We are to believe God gave us free will but it does not apply to the child because she died? It doesn't apply to the child because her parents were morons? That by no means is the attitude of an all loving and caring God, in fact it would suggest the exact opposite. I guarantee if the child had somehow survived the ordeal God would have been given the credit. What about the children who die by the hand of their parents from child abuse? What about the children who die from other forms of crimes? What is the excuse for that? The point is there are way too many things that happen to innocent children, and this case is no different. The free will crap does not apply here because the child's death had nothing to do with HER free will at all. I find it very offensive that someone would even suggest the child died because of her PARENTS free will.

I will leave this alone though because as a parent this subject is getting me way too worked up. As a father I would do anything for my kids to keep them healthy and to keep them from harm. I would expect even more from a "heavenly father".

Just one more thing.

The free will idea presents another problem. Even as stupid as it was, the parents used their free will to believe in God and that he can do all things asked of him. Isn't that what were supposed to do believe? So not only did God let a child die needlessly, he has also turned his back on obvious believers.

You think we should let this free will crap die now?

That's the danger if you are in false prophets and false religion.