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Originally Posted by Credendovidis
At least I do not believe in what someone else claims to be true, claims that always lack any objective support.
According to you. I don't think you would recognize objective support if it hit you in the face.
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Why do you not react to the points I made in my previous post?
I'm getting to it. But first, the ridiculous nature of this next statement of yours caught my eye:
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Look : for me nobody has to defend his-her religious views.
What a joke. That is precisely what you do in every discussion on this forum. You insist that everyone defend their religious views.
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You know I am right, don´t you?
I know you are wrong.
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But at least be honest when you claim something to be a fact, as I have never seen any religious claim or `one and only truth´ to be supported by objective evidence.
Because your subjective bias blinds you to objective truth.
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All that support such claims is the personal BELIEF of the one who states the claim.
:rolleyes:
Again, you don't seem to know what belief means. You ascribe to that word a meaning which is very narrow, but let me show you AGAIN, what Webster says is the meaning of the word:
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
belief - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
So, essentially, you not only don't know what constitutes objective evidence. You don't know the meaning of the word to which you object.
So, here we go, your previous message:
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Originally Posted by Credendovidis
WHY do you CLAIM that, and on WHAT do you base your CLAIM?
I claim the same thing based on my study of human behavior and Catholicism.
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I know a lot of people who are motivated to do good WITHOUT any (further) stimulation, religious or not.
Are you sure? Have you asked them why they did what they did? If so, give an example of one who does good and is not motivated by anything, not pity, not a feeling of happiness, not a feeling of gratitude, no motivating factor at all.
Because I have yet to meet anyone who is not motivated by something to do anything at all. Even to turn on the TV. Most people turn on the TV for a reason. Therefore if you have met someone that does good but without any motivation for it at all, then I am very interested in this person.
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But I agree with you that many people seem to need the stimulation by religious support to BE good (while almost always even religion fails to produce results).
I see that you claim to agree. But yet you feel the need to beat this person down with your analysis of his beliefs. In other words, he must defend his beliefs or justify them to you.
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Actually I doubt if one needs religion to do good.
Well, you can probably use your subjective experience to answer this.
Apparently you eschew religion. Do you feel that you do good?
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If "doing good" is not part of your standard lifestyle, religion won't help neither,
Won't help neither? Actually, I think it will. I know for a fact, that when I was atheist, I rarely helped any cause and anytime I did help any cause, I felt I needed to be paid somehow. At least I thought I should be thanked and that the people whom I helped needed to be appreciative.
However, now I pitch in when I'm asked or when I feel I'm needed and I do it simply because my faith in Christ says I should.
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as at best any improved results will be based on wrong reasoning.
Really. Lets see your reasoning for this conclusion. I hope it isn't what follows?
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A hard life is no valid reason for NOT being "good".
Oh my!! Did you arrive at this conclusion without religion?
I think then you'll have to provide objective proof of your stance, don't you? Why and what evidence do you have that a hard life is not a valid reason for not being "good"?
First explain what you mean by "being good".
Then tell me what constitutes a "hard life".
Then explain why a "hard life" does not justify not "being good"
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This suggests that doing good is mainly a "means" based activity.
What suggests such? You have yet to say anything. You've suggested two fuzzy ideas which you haven't defined and now you've suggested another.
It all sounds really intelligent, but where's the beef?
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I can guarantee you it is not. One can do a lot of "good" without any money or value involved. Think about the value of human and moral support, the will to assist where and when needed - like a friendly word and/or a helping hand, like youngsters showing some respect for the older in full busses and metro by offering them their seats, etc.
Are you now defining being good? And how do you define "a hard life"? What if a person has just hit you in the mouth? Does that constitute you're having a "hard day"? Will you then give him a friendly word? Or will you be justified in giving him a hit in the mouth?
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How sad that you herewith admit that you - like the donkey and the carrot - need an incentive to be a good human being.
Sad? Is that a subjective opinion? Or it is objective, how do you support your conclusion?
As for me, I think it is humble and righteous to realize that we are not perfect but need assistance to reach for perfection.
So, please provide your objective evidence to support the conclusion that this individual's attitude is "sad".
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With that I agree. But note that the believer seems to need religion to do good, while the non-believer does that automatically without any incentive.
I know a great many non-believers who don't do any good at all. In fact they do a great deal of evil. So, please provide the objective evidence that non-believers automatically do good.
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Which of the two is the sincere one here, the one truly inspired?
Well you obviously have one particular non-believer in mind who never does anything that you believe is evil but only does good. I've yet to meet such a non-believer. So I think in your fantasy world, you have ascribed sincerity and inspiration to the non-believer.
However, since we are speaking subjectively, in the real world as I see it, it is usually non-believers who have an ill-formed conscience and therefore commit more evil than good. And when they do good, it is usually for what they can get out of it.
And believers, when they come to believe, learn to be humble and to accept their weaknesses. Therefore they respond by reaching to attain the greater Good who is God and who teaches us to love our neighbor and do good for them as we would like done for ourselves.
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Why not peace here and now?
Because we recognize our limitations. But if you can produce peace in this world right now, please, by all means do so. Don't just talk about it. But you can't, so what's the point in berating this man about it?
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Why that totally unnecessary shifting to "the hereafter"?
Because we believe in the hereafter and in eternity with God. Whereas you don't. So why are you concerned? It might be totally unnecessary to you, but it isn't to us.
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People have been praying for peace for eons. Unless humanity makes it their lifestyle to really become peacefull in mind, all that praying is meaningless and will lead to nothing.
If all people would pray for peace, then they would become peaceful in mind.
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What is needed is to strengthen the fineer thin layer of moral justification for our deeds, and put the responsibility of our actions there where it belongs : on our own shoulders.
Which is exactly what our faith teaches us.
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What is needed also is that we stop being so greedy
Greedy. Now ther's a subjective concept. At what point is it greed? Owning a 10 bedroom house, a 3 bedroom house or a one bedroom house? Where do you draw the line? Should we have any possessions at all? Are you writing from your own computer?
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- specially those in the western society - and share all available resources evenly over all of humanity, instead of what is happening now in a world dominated by greed and selfinterest above anything else.
How do you propose we get to this goal?
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One does not need religion to be or become a "good human being". All we need is to learn to stop being so greedy and selfish.
Is that all? Isn't that what most religions are trying to achieve? And if you know a better way than through religion, why don't you provide it?
Exactly how I feel about this message of yours.
Sincerely,
De Maria
