Every time I get into a debate with a Christian about the Christian beliefs, the bible is the only source they ever use to back up what they say. I do not know many books that give facts for my arguments for each specific argument; but I do know that to say that the Bible is so factual you can make it the only source for your information is just wrong! Give hard evidence that the men who wrote the Bible did not just write what they believed or thought. We cannot prove that! Religion is made up to explain the unexplainable and to give hope that we do not just live to die. If you contradict that statement then tell me why is there so many different religions? Why is it that the thought of just dying and being no more bothers so many? I know I got off the subject of proving the Bible to be factual, but I have so many questions and I would like someone who knows real answers besides "Thats called Faith" to answer me.

Look up books and websites on science and the Bible

Science and the Bible

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Originally Posted by Oxman

Every time I get into a debate with a Christian about the Christian beliefs, the bible is the only source they ever use to back up what they say.

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Some Christians believe in a doctrine called the "Bible alone". They base all their beliefs on the Bible and do not consider any other source as valid.

Some Christians, Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics and some reformed Christians, accept authentic historical documents and all sources of proven evidence to confirm their beliefs.

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I do not know many books that give facts for my arguments for each specific argument; but I do know that to say that the Bible is so factual you can make it the only source for your information is just wrong!

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1. Actually, since the Bible is the Word of God, then rightly understood, it can be used to support any true argument.

2. But since many people do not believe in God, then in order to convince them that the Bible is true we must confirm its contents with facts gathered in another discipline.

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Give hard evidence that the men who wrote the Bible did not just write what they believed or thought.

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They did write what they believed and thought. Who said they didn't?

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We cannot prove that!

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No. But since most of them died for their beliefs, that is pretty convincing evidence that they did believe it was true.

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Religion is made up to explain the unexplainable and to give hope that we do not just live to die.

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Perhaps some religions are thus. But the Judeo Christian religions are based on the Revelation of God to our forefathers. This Revelation has been passed on by Tradition and Scripture through the Teaching of the Church throughout the generations.

You may not consider eyewitness testimony as credible, but it is routinely accepted in Courts of Law throughout the world.

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If you contradict that statement then tell me why is there so many different religions?

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There are many reasons. Haven't you ever met people who simply refuse to believe the truth no matter how plain it is? And there are simply people who haven't heard the truth. There are others who have heard it but haven't understood it. There are those who mislead people for personal gain. And there are many other reasons.

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Why is it that the thought of just dying and being no more bothers so many?

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It never bothered me. I was an atheist for approximately 15 years. But I no longer believe that to be true.

Why does it bother so many that we believe in life after death?

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I know I got off the subject of proving the Bible to be factual, but I have so many questions and I would like someone who knows real answers besides "Thats called Faith" to answer me.

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I hope that helps. Feel free to ask as many questions as you like. I'm sure there are many Christians here who are ready and willing to answer.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Oxman

Every time I get into a debate with a Christian about the Christian beliefs, the bible is the only source they ever use to back up what they say. I do not know many books that give facts for my arguments for each specific argument; but I do know that to say that the Bible is so factual you can make it the only source for your information is just wrong! Give hard evidence that the men who wrote the Bible did not just write what they believed or thought. We cannot prove that! Religion is made up to explain the unexplainable and to give hope that we do not just live to die. If you contradict that statement then tell me why is there so many different religions? Why is it that the thought of just dieing and being no more bothers so many? I know I got off the subject of proving the Bible to be factual, but I have so many questions and I would like someone who knows real answers besides "Thats called Faith" to answer me.

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It's not just based on faith to believe the bible as authentic, it is also fact. For example:

It is filled with prophesies, many of which have already been fulfilled. Isaiah 13:20 foretold of the great city Babylon being desolatede permanently. Today it is still just a pile of rubble remaining uninhabited, yet other cities of old are thriving.

It is scientifically accurate. For many centuries man thought the earth was flat and yet Isaiah 40:22 states "There is one who is dwelling above the circle of the earth."

True it was mere man who penned the bible, but the Author was God himself, making it possible for some 40 very different men over a time span of 16 centuries to make up the bible in a completely harmonious, united way.

And if you are thinking that such a book could not possibly be kept 'original' down to our day - then you are basically saying that God is not perfect because he isn't capable of preserving his Word.

BTW the reason many are so bothered about dying is because they have not been taught the truth of Gods wonderful purpose for us, which is certainly not to live and die.

Gen 1:28 "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and sudue it" In other words we were meant to be caretakers of this planet. No mention of death here, only when Adam and Eve were given boundaries and the consequences of breaking them was death ever mentioned.

But getting back to proving the bible as authentic... to date, no one has ever successfully challenged the historical accuracy of it. You are most welcome to try. But really the proof is right there in front of you. Unfortunately many don't take enough time to study it deeply enough to find its true benefits.

So Oxman, give me hard evidence that the heat of the sun at its core is 27,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

To answer you, it does not matter one penny what you believe or think, no amount of evidence would convince you, I doubt if God himself spoke to you from a donkey you would believe.

So why bother with trying to tell you about Gods love, about his power and about his forgiveness.

The bible is a book, written over many 1000's of years, protected, forgotten, despised and found and rejoiced over and over many times.
You can reject it, that is your right, You an accept it, from the history of the Church and its teachings, and the 1000's of things of evidence from the data on the flood which shows a great regional flood in the general area believed to be the known world at the time of Noah, to other evidence showing ruins in Egypt that show brick with no straw following the teachings of the bible. The evidence is there but those who wish to refuse to believe will always find reasons to.

I guess my issue or question is what is your motive in challenging it,
If you don't believe, why not leave it and go about your way without any worry,

Is you your heart longs to believe and you want some sign to allow you to accept Christ?

Hi there Ox -

I am Catholic and thought I was Christian ( I accept Jesus as my savior - and Love our Lord so much, as well as Jesus Christ)

We did not have bible study at all in school (11 years Catholic - 1 year public). However, our masses, the readings our from the bible and then, what is called a homily follows, which to be is one of the favorite parts of mass.

This is the point that normally, the priest, will tie in reading 1 ( usually Old Testament ) and reading 2 ( New testament ), explain what they meant, and connect it to something of today.

It's very simple the way they do it. Overall, the preach LOVE. Honest. I never was at a mass, where the damned anyone, I would have walked out. Trust me. And ask to see the Priest later.

With that said, I have heard sermons that did warn us that we need to mend our ways.

I have said this so many times and people are probably sick of me saying it, but I believe strongly, that those religions that practice and believe, and preach the love of God, are just roads that lead to Our Heavenly Father.

It's kind of like one diet works for one, doesn't for another. And the third won't even try because he or she knows they never will loose weight.

God Bless.

There is nothing to prove, God's love speaks for itself :). But if you mean is the bible real.

Oh I think so, I truly do.

But as I tell everyone, trust your heart. Knock (probably better if you called) on a rectory door, or a synagogue, or any church you feel comfortable in, and ask your questions.
God want's us to help each other through this, and recognizes how difficult it is. How do I know all of this? Oh, I have His number :). Just kiddin.

He's in my heart and has carried me through good and difficult times. Mostly, He blesses me everyday.

But if you remember when Jesus would sit and teach, it was done in a loving way.

[QUOTE=Fr_Chuck]To answer you, it does not matter one penny what you believe or think, no amount of evidence would convince you, I doubt if God himself spoke to you from a donkey you would believe.
[QUOTE]

I think you have this wrong though. If there was a way to prove god. I would believe. Just like if they catch the Lockness monster or bigfoot, I'd believe in them too. On the otherhand though I don't think you will ever not believe even if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that god had no effect on this universe you would still claim that god is there and answers your prayers and that is was a matter of faith that can't be disproven.

As for an eyewitness being a good source of information, that's completely wrong. How many time do people report sightings of aliens, big foot and the lochness monster? Even when used in a court of law they are not regarded as highly accurate. Very rarely is someone convicted on eyewitness testimony alone.

Dear oxman,
You have alots of question. If you want real answer visit HOME « Eliseo Soriano, ask bro eli soriano.

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Originally Posted by marvin_082500

Dear oxman,
You have alots of question. if you want real answer visit HOME « Eliseo Soriano, ask bro eli soriano.

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Honestly, he does not have a lot of questions, at least any where he wants an answer, He already believes he knows that the bible is "not true" and wishes to disprove it to those he can. He wants the bible proved, and for course first the bible is a collection of separate writings not one book, it was formed into a book by christians to keep sacred writtings together.

One can prove many things, from flood layers but one that does not WANT to believe never will, not until they decide to have faith, which will allow them to see.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Honestly, he does not have alot of questions, at least any where he wants an answer, He already beleives he knows that the bible is "not true" and wishes to disprove it to those he can. He wants the bible proved, and fo course first the bible is a collection of seperate writings not one book, it was formed into a book by christians to keep sacred writtings together.

One can prove many things, from flood layers but one that does not WANT to beleive never will, not untill they decide to have faith, which will allow them to see.

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He saith, He have a lots of question. In it takes a lot of time to prove the bible is true.

TO PROVE HOW AUTHENTIC THE BIBLE IS, I WILL GIVE ONE EXAMPLE. Once upon time people believed that the earth is flat. In 1969 when apollo 11 CAME TO THE OUTER space. It is the first time that man saw that the is not flat. Did you not many years before Jesus Christ Came to the in flesh, it is written in the bible that the eareth is not flat. "It is He that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth," Isa.40:22. Gallileo galili was excumunicate by his church because he bilieve that the earth is round but his church believe it is flat.

Umm the greeks measured the circumference of the earth long before the bible was even written and almost all sea faring cultures knew that the earth was round because they would see the masts of ships before they saw the hull of the ship. It was only the church that for some reason got the idea that the world was flat and made everyone believe it.

Earth Circumference Measurement by Posidonius

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Originally Posted by marvin_082500

TO PROVE HOW AUTHENTIC THE BIBLE IS, I WILL GIVE ONE EXAMPLE. once upon time people believed that the earth is flat. in 1969 when apollo 11 CAME TO THE OUTER space. it is the first time that man saw that the is not flat. did you not many years before Jesus Christ Came to the in flesh, it is written in the bible that the eareth is not flat. "It is He that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth," Isa.40:22. Gallileo galili was excumunicate by his church because he bilieve that the earth is round but his church believe it is flat.

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Besides that Christianity did everything in it´s power to prevent the scientific evidence of a spherical earth to be communicated freely, the fact that the earth was a sphere was wellknown long before it was introduced in anyone of the bible stories.
Nobody required apollo 11 or any other rocketry to see that the earth was a sphere. All that was required to see that was an open mind.
:rolleyes:

Read A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle and maybe life itself will make more sense to you. It really answers a lot of questions of life and may help you understand a few things from the Bible even though its not the based on one religion or even the Bible itself. It just makes sense.

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Originally Posted by grammy2x

... and maybe life itself will make more sense to you.

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What makes you think that anyone here has a problem with life not making any sense?
The question is if you can objectively prove that the sense life makes to you has more value than the sense someone else experiences? What is right, what is wrong? What is true, what is untrue? And WHY is that so?
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

What makes you think that anyone here has a problem with life not making any sense?
The question is if you can objectively prove that the sense life makes to you has more value than the sense someone else experiences? What is right, what is wrong? What is true, what is untrue? And WHY is that so?
:rolleyes:

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Sorry just trying to help.

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Originally Posted by grammy2x

Sorry just trying to help.

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Please understand that I am not attacking you at all.
.
For your information : I am a freethinking Secular Humanist.
I do not hate anyone.
I do not hate religion or religious people.
I never killed or physically hurt anyone.
I do not misuse children, women, or any other human being.
I do not harm animals.
I do not drink alcohol, I don't smoke, I do not do drugs.
I pay my taxes and my bills.
I love my Christian wife, my children, and my grandchildren.
I am a honest, open, non-aggressive, rather intelligent guy.
I have a 30 years experience in teaching children in the third world.
I am member of an international emergency assistance team.
I am an unpaid volunteer with mentally handicapped children, and volunteer in a hospice for terminal patients
There is nothing wrong with me.
So with what and why would you try to help me?
.
All I tried to do is show that Oxman's topic "How can we prove the Bible is factual" makes no sense, as there is no way anyone can prove the Bible is factual, simply because the entire Bible and the religion based on the Bible is based on BELIEF and nothing else.
:rolleyes:

Bravo, the first perfect human being ever! Pardon me for trying to answer and not being of any help, when obviously you don't need it, good for you. Good luck to you.

Grammy,
I believe he may have taken your "maybe life itself will make more sense to you" somewhat personally (apologies to Credendovidis if I got that wrong). Many who don't read the bible as a life guide have absolutely no problem living our lives or finding meaning in what we do. If you require the bible to have life make sense to you then that's OK but it's best not to assume that others are like that.

Thanks for the advice. I guess I should have thought it through more. I just thought the reading itself would help rather than asking others the way he did. He came across as a bully to me, and that may not have been the intention. It just seemed as though there wasn't an answer that anyone could give him that would help and that he was just challenging Christians to prove what we believe with our hearts without having to have scientific proof. You either believe or you don't. I think I'll stick to asking questions instead of answering them! Thanks for caring and may God Bless you!

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Originally Posted by michealb

umm the greeks measured the circumference of the earth long before the bible was even written and almost all sea faring cultures knew that the earth was round because they would see the masts of ships before they saw the hull of the ship. It was only the church that for some reason got the idea that the world was flat and made everyone believe it.

Earth Circumference Measurement by Posidonius

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Thousands years before greeks measured the earth it is written in the bible. I agreed to marvin. I read the bible if it comes to me that the bible is advanced. There's a science in the bible, medical, history, and even engineering.

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Originally Posted by grammy2x

Bravo, the first perfect human being ever! Pardon me for trying to answer and not being of any help, when obviously you don't need it, good for you. Good luck to you.

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Why so negative? I never suggested to be perfect. You do that! I just tried to convey to you that also non-believers can be "good" people, and do not need any help because of their world view.
I fear you must wear size 68 shoes to allow for your long toes...
;)

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

grammy,
I believe he may have taken your "maybe life itself will make more sense to you" somewhat personally (apologies to Credendovidis if I got that wrong).

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No, you got that spot on !
:)

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Originally Posted by grammy2x

... and that he was just challenging Christians to prove what we believe with our hearts without having to have scientific proof. You either believe or you don't...

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Now you're talking! ;)
No I am NOT challenging Christians to PROVE what they BELIEVE.
All I state is that you may BELIEVE whatever you BELIEVE, but than do not CLAIM that what you BELIEVE is the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH, because that CLAIM is something that you have to PROVE to be true!!
;)

Now how can we honestly give any other reply to the topic question "How can we prove the Bible is factual? " than "No, you can not prove that. You can only BELIEVE that! "?
;)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Besides that Christianity did everything in it´s power to prevent the scientific evidence of a spherical earth to be communicated freely, the fact that the earth was a sphere was wellknown long before it was introduced in anyone of the bible stories.
Nobody required apollo 11 or any other rocketry to see that the earth was a sphere. All that was required to see that was an open mind.
:rolleyes:

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Many people way back thuosands of years believes that the earth was flat,but is alreadywritten in the bible. To prove the Bible is factual. In history of asyria, they don't believe that they have a king named king sargon. But king sargon was mentioned in the bible. In our time archeologist found a stone tablet where king sargon pictured in that stone. Even archeology the bible is write. The bible is complete in history than the asyrian history.

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Originally Posted by addaddadd

Many people way back thuosands of years believes that the earth was flat,but is alreadywritten in the bible. To prove the Bible is factual. In history of asyria, they dont believe that they have a king named king sargon. But king sargon was mentioned in the bible. in our time archeologist found a stone tablet where king sargon pictured in that stone. even archeology the bible is write. The bible is complete in history than the asyrian history.

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All you can prove at best are individual claims in the Bible to be correct.
But for the Bible as Bible to be factual you have to prove that God exists, that God is the Almighty, that the Bible is God's word, that Genesis is factual, etc. etc. etc.
And nobody can objectively prove that. So the honest answer is NO : you can not prove the Bible to be factual! All you can do is BELIEVE the Bible to be factual.
:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

All you can prove at best are individual claims in the Bible to be correct.
But for the Bible as Bible to be factual you have to prove that God exists, that God is the Almighty, that the Bible is God's word, that Genesis is factual, etc. etc. etc.
And nobody can objectively prove that. So the honest answer is NO : you can not prove the Bible to be factual! All you can do is BELIEVE the Bible to be factual.
:rolleyes:

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In Genesis, God created heavens and earth, now you can see heaven and earth. God said, let there be light, and there was light. You can see light. Who among people that can claimed that they created heaven its only God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Please understand that I am not attacking you at all.
.
For your information : I am a freethinking Secular Humanist.
I do not hate anyone.
I do not hate religion or religious people.
I never killed or physically hurt anyone.
I do not misuse children, women, or any other human being.
I do not harm animals.
I do not drink alcohol, I don't smoke, I do not do drugs.
I pay my taxes and my bills.
I love my Christian wife, my children, and my grandchildren.
I am a honest, open, non-aggressive, rather intelligent guy.
I have a 30 years experience in teaching children in the third world.
I am member of an international emergency assistance team.
I am an unpaid volunteer with mentally handicapped children, and volunteer in a hospice for terminal patients
There is nothing wrong with me.
So with what and why would you try to help me?
.
All I tried to do is show that Oxman's topic "How can we prove the Bible is factual" makes no sense, as there is no way anyone can prove the Bible is factual, simply because the entire Bible and the religion based on the Bible is based on BELIEF and nothing else.
:rolleyes:

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If you don't believe in God its up to you. It is not a sin to believe in God.anyway There will be a judgment day. "People will believe in God if they are in the time of dying, They will call God"

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Originally Posted by addaddadd

Thousands years before greeks measured the earth it is writen in the bible. I agreed to marvin. I read the the bible if it comes to me that the bible is advanced. theres a science in the bible, medical, history, and even engineering.

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Really so the new testament was written thousands of years before the greeks, who were before the Romans who were the ones that killed Jesus which the new testament about.

There is science in the bible but it's science that is almost 2000 years old. The science in the bible was common knowledge to the people of that time. It would be like you writing a book about things that are common knowledge now and after 2000 years and a dark ages cause by religious oppression(where the church burned all the real science books of the time by the way). People going, look if you change the words around and you do things like assume that when he said circle he really meant globe, this guy was right. He must have been inspired by god.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by addaddadd

If you dont believe in God its up to you. It is not a sin to believe in God.anyway There will be a judgment day. "People will believe in God if they are in the time of dying, They will call God"

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Ahh the classic death threat from Christians. If I had a nickel for every time a Christian wished me ill I'd be a very rich man.

The Bible (Old Testament) contridicts itself in the first two chapters of Genesis. God supposedly created man in his likeness on the 6th day. In Genesis 2, he created man in his likeness to take care of the animals on Earth, So which was it,, on the 6th day or sometime after the 6th day.
It goes on and on like that. Where did all of the women come from that Cain's sons married?

I am a bit of a skeptic. It sounds like a story book and nothing has been scientifically proven.

The Bible like all "sacred scriptures" of the world's religions is about the *SUPERNATURAL*.

There is no proof of a supernatural... that is gods, demons, devils, satan, imps, and all other characters associated with what primitive people thought about how the natural world worked because they had *no knowledge* about how the Universe functioned.

That does not mean that many people don't derive much pleasure from their beliefs in a supernatural in the face of a real world full of unhappiness and death as well as joy and love.

To further illustrate, probably the three greatest American archaeologists of the twentieth century each had their liberal training modified by their archaeological work


Lost Worlds

Some interesting viewing / reading

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Originally Posted by michealb

Ahh the classic death threat from Christians. If I had a nickle for everytime a Christian wished me ill I'd be a very rich man.

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Its not a death threat it is reality some of us will die maybe now, tomorrow or next next year. It is a christian faith some of us will die. And christian are not afraid in death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by addaddadd

In Genesis, God created heavens and earth, now you can see heaven and earth. God said, let there be light, and there was light. you can see light. Who among people that can claimed that they created heaven its only God.

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What kind of "proof" is that? It was obvious to even our most primitive ancestors when they just fell out of the trees, that there was a kind of "blue dome" over the world (with lights at night) that was called heaven in many different words by different religions for thousands of years prior to the first letter of the Bible ever having been written.
That that "heaven" and earth existed was nothing special, and was for everyone to see. The only real difference was the new meaning of that "dome", the meaning of "heaven", and the lacking support for linking these two by Judaism, and later by Christianity.
.
The claim that God created heaven is a Christian claim, and I have never seen any objective support for that claim, OTHER THAN BELIEF!
.
I suggest that you look up the meaning of "objective".
.
:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by addaddadd

Its not a death threat it is reality some of us will die maybe now, tommorow or next next year. It is a christian faith some of us will die., And christian are not afraid in death.

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I do not know any non-believer who is afraid of death. What is there to be afraid off?
You sleep in, never to awake again.
The only reason I do not look forward to that moment is that I like to be there for my wife, my children, and my grandchildren, and enjoy their presence.
I do not fear death. Many Christians do. They fear the wrath of god. They fear "Final Judgment". They fear for what they BELIEVE to be true. But there is no objective proof supporting these claims really to exist.
:rolleyes:

Back to my earlier basic point made about the question in this topic :
.
All you can prove at best are individual claims in the Bible to be correct.
But for the Bible as Bible to be factual you have to prove that God exists, that God is the Almighty, that the Bible is God's word, that Genesis is factual, etc. etc. etc.
And nobody can objectively prove that. So the honest answer to the topic question is NO : you can not prove the Bible to be factual! All you can do is BELIEVE the Bible to be factual.
:rolleyes:

Credendovidis, You must believe in the bible, Even you is in the bible. Psalms14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God;They are corrupt, theyhave done abominable works, there is none that doeth good" People Believing there is no God They the doers of abominable works. The bible stated there is non believer in God. The bible is very factual because even you is in the bible. All your question on Faith the bible can answer.

There you have it, another 'good' christian calling another person a fool simply for having a different viewpoint than his.