Donna Mae posted in topic "Is there a God?" :

"I believe it as soon as I see it. The problem with this statement is that when you see it (the Judgement), it will be to late to believe then".

Besides that that only MAY BE TRUE (as it is subject to the existence of that deity which many of you call "God", and if there is any judgement at all), there is another problem with this point of view.

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (your and any other) God : what can one do?

Born into a Christian family I rejected the belief in (any) God(s) at the early age of 12 years.
I did not change any other habits and viewpoints. I have not murdered anyone, pay my dues where demanded from me, do a lot of unpaid volunteer activities, am a member of an international disaster team, still help old women to the other side of the street (if they want to go there), and am open to other views (i.e. also to Christianity). But I do not believe in the existence of God.

Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the wellknown ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?

Most of you are all 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that there is that deity called God with all these characteristic described to it, while I am 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that the deity called God does not exist, and that there is no ´Satan`, that there are no ´Heaven and Hell`, that there is no ´Final Judgement`, etc.

Besides that everyone should be allowed to believe whatever ´feels good`, you can not force a belief upon yourself or another. I do not see any reason neither to even try to change my position. But I respect whatever you believe in.

All I do not respect are the conclusions some of you draw from your religious beliefs. Like a 6000 years old earth, or the creation myth converted into anti evolution attack (a rather intolerant approach towards those of other views, while creationists demand full tolerance towards their own views (but most of the time fail to provide themselves towards those of other views). Just as you are allowed in your belief(s), I am allowed in what I feel right !
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Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
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(1) 99,999.999.999.999.999% : sassyT claims that there is nothing you can know 100%, so 99,999.999.999.999.999% than :)
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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?

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Questioning the existence of an Almighty being is not wrong,that question could lead to research and you could be on a path of discovery of the Truth.

If you do not find the truth while you are alive,you will find the truth after death,whether the believers in an afterlife is right or those that disbelieved in an afterlife is right.You will also find answers to the question,"is there an Almighty?" beyond death,until then it is your right to search or research.

And just to let you know,Hinduism does not believe in many Gods,but they believe in One Supreme God,who manifests in different forms.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

Questioning the existence of an Almighty being is not wrong,that question could lead to research and you could be on a path of discovery of the Truth.

If you do not find the truth while you are alive,you will find the truth after death,whether the believers in an afterlife is right or those that disbelieved in an afterlife is right.You will also find answers to the question,"is there an Almighty?" beyond death,until then it is your right to search or research.

And just to let you know,Hinduism does not believe in many Gods,but they believe in One Supreme God,who manifests in different forms.

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1 - I´ve done enough research on that in my life. And my conclusion is clear : hamna evidence, so no truth to discover, other than that there is no proof for the existence of God !
2 - Not really. Only if theists are correct that is so. If Atheists are correct all thoughts will disappear upon dying. All we both will see is that tunnel vision with the white light at the end (a physical reaction to the brain starving of oxygen)...
3 - I have to disagree : There is a wide range of Hindu perceptions towards God. Some Hindu´s indeed have one main god (Brahman). Others make a distinct difference between multiple Gods. Hinduism is actually a collection of many different religions.

:)

My feeling on this is that it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not. What really matters is how you live your life. If you live your life by the Golden Rule, if you are basically honest and ethical (sorry ex-Gov Spitzer ;) ), then even if there is the proverbial judgement day, whoever is doing the judgement is going to look at how you lived, not what you believed.

There is a far difference from not believing personally and going out of your way to attack and try to weaken the faith of others, One is a personal belief, the other shows a more dark side, determined to fight against God. In fighting against God, you show you actually believe he exists but refuse to accept him, and beyond accepting him, you wish to battle against him.

God made it very easy, as jesus said, you are either for him or you are against him.

Can as Scott said, a person who is not religioius ( Christian, Muslim, Buddist) live a good life, yes, they can in all aspects do good works, give to the poor, they can even go into churches and be deacons

But to that, they do good works for the benefit of doing good works.

Even a Christian does not do the good works to earn any place in heaven.
But they do good works because they wish to follow the example of Christ.

If you believe in God or if you don't, it is your decision. All we can do is tell you what we believe. I believe in God because I choose to study God's word so that I will know what the truth is. You will probably never come to accept Jesus unless you want to. Know one can force you to read the Bible to see that Jesus is our Savior, and may be you wouldn't believe even if you read it.

Our only job is to warn people of the coming of Jesus, what they do with that information is between them and God. God is the one who adds to His flock, not me. I want to warn as many as I can about the Judgement because on that day I don't want someone to say to me, why didn't you tell me about Jesus? You knew the truth, why didn't you tell me? How sad that would be.

Everyone has free will, if you choose to believe, if you don't, that's up to you. I think God doesn't want us to be pests about it because He said to warn someone, once. Then warn them a second time, if they don't accept then, wipe the dust from your feet and move on.

I really get discouraged on here because I think I do spend too much time in arguments and lengthy discussions. I need to just inform those who want to know about God and Christ and that's all.

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Originally Posted by Donna Mae

Our only job is to warn people of the coming of Jesus, what they do with that information is between them and God. God is the one who adds to His flock, not me. I want to warn as many as I can about the Judgement because on that day I don't want someone to say to me, why didn't you tell me about Jesus? You knew the truth, why didn't you tell me? How sad that would be.

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The problem I have with this, Donna, is that you BELIEVE it's the truth, but you can't prove it. What happens with proselytizers like you is that you tend to have this self-righteous attitude that you know the truth and anyone who doesn't believe in it is wrong. This shows a lack of respect for other people which turns people off and ends up in arguments and bad feelings.

I am happy for you that you have found what you feel is the truth. I am glad it gives you comfort. But please don't tell me that I am not comfortable in my beliefs. Its one thing to tell people what you believe, it's a different thing to attack what others believe. And that's the line that too many people cross. I haven't read too much of what you have posted so I'm not sure whether you cross that line, but from what I've read, you come very close to it.

Sorry, but I don't have anything to prove. I state God's facts. What you do with it is up to you.

I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not having Christ in their life.
And from the testomony of 1000's that did not know and latter found Christ, we know as a fact that people without him are missing things in their life. But in the end it is always the persons choice to accept or reject, but it is the duty and obligation of the Christian to give you the information so that you decide.

Chuck,

FundiEv Christianity in America is all about POLITICS... therefore, 'you all' get challenged because of your political side, as you rightly should!

"Christianity" is politics, now. All decent Americans can challenge whatever you say. :)

Yes and don't forget to vote Fr_Chuck as your write in vote.

But in many ways politics is only a side effect, since the even the courts ( Supreme Court) and Federal court appointments come from who is President and the moral direction of our nation is controlled by who gets elected.

And of course being a Christian does not take ones right to be part of the poliical process away, I am a firm beleiver that we should have a Christian party to stand up for Christian values. If every baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic and all of the churches that are suppose to stand for family values, if every member only voted for people with correct moral values, we would see a change in the direction of our nation.

A Christian doesn't have to prove anything, we know the truth. I don't call that a self-righteous attitude, because what I tell others is not for my benefit, it's for theirs and God's.

I didn't write the rules, I'm just saying if you read the Bible-you'll know what God's will is.

I have the greatest respect for others, if I didn't I wouldn't be telling them about Christ. The only reason I do this is because I care about the souls of others.

I bet this puts me over the line?

Yes, Donna and Chuck it does put you over the line. I understand where you are coming from and I don't really have any expectation that I will change you, but the fact that you feel you know the truth, when there are billions of people who believe in a different truth shows a level of arrogance and disrespect that you just can't see. And no level of argument is going to convince otherwise, because according to your belief system if you even acknowledge that someone else's belief system may be right it shakes the foundation of your faith.

But it IS arrogance to assume that other people need to be "saved". It is self-righteousness to believe that you know the truth and others don't. I have read the Bible by the way, and I know what the Bible says is God's will, but I haven't seen any proof that it is God's will. The Bible was written by men. Men who believed they knew what God's will was, but men nonetheless.

And no, you don't have the greatest respect for others, because to respect others is to allow them to believe what they want. You can't do that. I grant that you think you need to poselytize to be true to your faith. But please don't try to convince us that you are trying to save us because you trespect us. It doesn't work that way.

I concede you care about the souls of others, but I maintain that you haven't the right to proselytize.

Oh and I feel absolutely nothing missing in my life because I do not believe in organized religion. In fact I feel very comfortable in my beliefs. I feel I've hedged my bets by leading a moral and ethical life. And that, if that isn't enough should there be a judgement day, then I'm happy with that.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

There is a far difference from not beleiving personally and going out of your way to attack and try to weaken the faith of others, One is a personal beleif, the other shows a more dark side, determined to fight against God.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not having Christ in thier life.

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I imagine you don't realize the hypocrisy of your statements.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

I understand where you are coming from and I don't really have any expectation that I will change you, but the fact that you feel you know the truth, when there are billions of people who believe in a different truth shows a level of arrogance and disrespect that you just can't see.

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I find it disrespectful that billions of people are allowed to believe in different truths, but Christians are arrogant and disrespectful when they even mention the truths that they have. Does that really sound fair to you?

And I thought non-believers weren't trying to change anyone!

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Originally Posted by Donna Mae

I find it disrespectful that billions of people are allowed to believe in different truths, but Christians are arrogant and disrespectful when they even mention the truths that they have. Does that really sound fair to you?

And I thought non-believers weren't trying to change anyone!

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See that's where you get it wrong. I have no problem in your stating what you believe in. Up to the point where you challenge someone else's beliefs. I understand that your interpretation of the Bible commands you to try and convert others. And that kind of leaves us in a Catch 22. For you to follow your beliefs you have to challenge mine, for me to do what I believe in I wind up challenging that belief of yours. So it does kind of make me a bit of hypocrite to say I respect your beliefs but not when you proselytize. I reconcile that by the understanding that I'm only challenging that one part of your belief, not the whole belief system as you are doing.

I find it odd however, that the Old Testament didn't include such a mandate. Yet you believe in the Old Testament.

I guess change was the wrong word. I'm just trying to get you to understand that you can't show respect for someone if you you challenge everything they believe in. That you can't show respect for someone if you try to "save" them when they don't feel they want or need to be saved. That you should feel comfortable that they are comfortable in what they believe in even when it runs counter to yours.

You need to realize that historically, this mandate to convert everyone to Christianity has caused more harm than good, has been behind some of the worst excesses of humankind. The Inquisition, the Holocaust, millions killed as missionaries spread disease throughout the so-called third world.

No I will never support proselytizing.

And the spread of the Gospel has done the most good, medical care in all parts of the world, the largest charity groups in the world, For many decades the entire education system for the US andfor centuries the education system for most of Europe and still for many parts of the world.

When world disaster hits, you don't see many Buddists or Islam charity groups rushing to the aid, I have not see an athiests charity group rush to their aids, it is the christian who always answers the call.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Up to the point where you challenge someone else's beliefs. ]

Exactly, I feel the same way.

[I understand that your interpretation of the Bible commands you to try and convert others.]

Actually, I'm not trying to convert anyone, only God can do that, i just inform.

[So it does kind of make me a bit of hypocrite to say I respect your beliefs but not when you proselytize.]

True.

[I reconcile that by the understanding that I'm only challenging that one part of your belief, not the the whole belief system as you are doing.]

I really don't know how I am challenging your whole belief system by telling you about Christ. I have always said that if you don't want to believe in God, that't your right.
But at least allow me the right to tell those that want to hear the good news.

[I find it odd however, that the Old Testament didn't include such a mandate. yet you believe in the Old Testament.]

I do believe that the Old Testament is fact and the history of Christians. But after Jesus was nailed to the cross, the Old Testament was nailed to the cross with him. Jesus is the way and His teachings.

[I guess change was the wrong word. I'm just trying to get you to understand that you can't show respect for someone if you you challenge everything they believe in. ]

Exactly! Christians feel the same way!

[That you can't show respect for someone if you try to "save" them when they don't feel they want or need to be saved.]

If you don't want or need to be saved, that's fine, it's totally your decision. I really mean that. Beside, I can't save anyone, only God can.

[That you should feel comfortable that they are comfortable in what they believe in even when it runs counter to yours.]

Hey, I said you can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't mean I have to be comfortable with it. Afterall I'm just trying to help someone that I believe needs help.
But like I said before, I'm waiting for someone who wants my help.



[No I will never support proselytizing.

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And no one said you have to.

Very good point Chuck.
I like the eye!

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

When world disaster hits, you don't see many Buddists or Islam charity groups rushing to the aid, I have not see an athiests charity group rush to their aids, it is the christian who always answers the call.

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None are so blind as those who will not see.

Doctors Without Borders/Médecins sans Frontières

American Red Cross

UNICEF - UNICEF Home

Amnesty International


It's also worth pointing out that non-believers who go around doing nice things for humanity don't usually go around saying that they do it because they don't have god beliefs. If they mention it at all, they usually say "it's for humanity" or "it's the compassionate thing to do". Also in many cases, the charity that the religious engage in is merely a means for converting others. The primary goal is not solely to help alleviate suffering but to spread the faith.

A heathen doesn't have to prove anything, we know the truth. I don't call that a self-righteous attitude, because what I tell others is not for my benefit, it's for theirs and those around them.

I didn't write the rules, I'm just saying if you read a holy book - you'll realize it's a farce.

I have the greatest respect for others, if I didn't I wouldn't be telling them about life as a heathen. The only reason I do this is because I care about the quality of their life.

I bet this puts me over the line?

I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not being a heathen.

And from the testimony of 1000's that did know and later rejected Christ or god (or never accepted him in the first place), we know as a fact that people with him are missing things in their life. But in the end it is always the person's choice to accept or reject, but it is the duty and obligation of the heathen to give those who wonder the information so that you decide.

If that's what you believe.
The word heathen is your word, never been mine.
But if that's what you're happy with. Hey, it's your life.

If I wave a red flag or lantern to keep someone from driving off a washed-out bridge, I am a hero. If I try to warn someone that he is headed toward Hell, I am an intolerant, ignorant bigot. Go figure!

I don't understand it either.

My point is to hold up a mirror and see if you still think you don't sound self-righteous.

And the difference between saving someone from driving off a bridge and preaching about being saved by Jesus is that no one on this earth disputes that if a car plummets off a bridge the occupants will be killed or injured. There are more people on this earth who don't believe in the Christian version of heaven and hell than those who do.

Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus? Do you really think a majority of non-Christians are so ill-informed about basic Christian beliefs that they don't know you think they are going to hell? Why not preach to the people who come to you or the people who admit they are lost or confused? That is why it's arrogant and self-righteous - you have the nerve to think that because someone doesn't believe the same way as you they are miserable, when in fact, a great deal of people are very satisfied with their current belief system. Do you like it when the zealots of the Muslim faith call us infidels and tell us if we don't convert we will all go to hell? Seriously, before you speak, think about what you are about to say from the other perspective - would you want someone telling you your beliefs are wrong, that you will suffer for eternity, etc unless you listen to them and accept their version of things? And when/if those things are said to you, will it shake your faith, even the slightest?

It's called empathy, try it out.

And you can call me a heathen, it doesn't bother me. I do it all the time.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus?

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You said it better than I did.

But to answer your question, there are passages in the New Testament that specifically push Christians to convert others. As Chuck said, they consider their job and duty. Its unfortunate, because those passages have led to a lot more harm than good. The problem is blind faith, as I see it. Proselytizers take a view of the bible that they have to follow it exactly. So they would be remiss in their devotion to God is they didn't proselytize. Obviously not all Christians feel this way. Many take a more pragmatic view and feel they shouldn't force themselves on others.

I've mentioned before that I attended a synagogue in Greenwich Village in NYC when I was growing up. This synagogue was called the Brotherhood synagogue and shared its building with a church (Episcopalian as I recall). There is a church on LI that recently celbrated its 275th annversary. The church is shared by Christian, Jewish AND Moslem congregations. So I have to ask, since there are congregations that PRACTICE brotherhood, why do some people insist on imposing themselves on others.

I think, possibly, I can help both of you out. Possibly. First, if a religion is made on a foundation to "recruit" more "flock", this would not be a religion I would wish to be a part of. Not saying it is wrong, just not for me.

Now, here is how I see it. So many times, I heard people who have just had enough of having someone else's view, thoughts, or faith jammed down their throats, say, "It's behavaviour like that, that reconfirms my belief in not to believe in God."

And who could blame them?

It is Allheart's belief, that these "do gooders", these folks so worried about your spiritual soul, that they are willing to hurt and rip apart your human soul" in the name of saving your soul (puke), is evil at it's finest.

It may be evil preventing some, not all, but some, from opening up maybe a little more to the possibility that God does exsist.

As a human, it truly makes me so mad. But never afraid of evil. I think evil (unkind acts) penetrates, which was once, and still is, a very good person, but evil, like a cancer, has attacked them.

Believe me, not all who believe in God, or accept Jesus as their Savor, would make any of you feel anything but loved.

We ALL our children of God - Not one of us is better then the next.

I will tune out those that say I am sugar coating the issue. Let God be the judge of that.

And may we all be concerned, with doing good, loving and helping each other through every day.

God will take it from there.

Now this is only my view, but maybe gives you some insight.

Remember, a couple of bad apples, were once apples themselves but will never ever spoil the whole bunch.

My heart to all of you.

Allheart

The question of "believing comes" when we are not sure of the existtance of thing.The ecstacy of a dive in a swimming pool can never be enjoyed unless one jumps into it. No point in always jumping on the springing board. One must dive into the pool to enjoy the freshness. There is no other way out.

Allheart, you truly are one of the good apples! :) You are someone who, in my experiences with you here has always been kind, patient and understanding to those of different faiths. I wish I could say the same about more people on this site (and that goes for people of all and no faith!). And this bears repeating - if I could give you a greenie, I would!

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It is Allheart's belief, that these "do gooders", these folks so worried about your spiritual soul, that they are willing to hurt and rip apart your human soul" in the name of saving your soul (puke), is evil at it's finest.

It may be evil preventing some, not all, but some, from opening up maybe a little more to the possibility that God does exsist.

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And Scott, I'm aware it is a Christian's duty to spread the word, but I just don't get why they must spread it to people who are already happy and secure in their beliefs. Why not start by spreading the word to those who are unhappy, confused, or lost, and then tackle the task of world domination? :D That is what I don't get - why focus on me (or someone like me), someone who is happy with every aspect of their life (well... I sort of wish I had a new car... ) instead of focusing on someone who feels like they are missing something? I just don't get it.

Doesn't Dr. Phil always say you can't help people who don't want help? So isn't it a waste of time to try and help someone who doesn't want it?

And Ramamoorthy, your analogy works coming from both sides. Perhaps jumping out of religion is the ecstacy?

[QUOTE=jillianleab]
Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus? Why not preach to the people who come to you or the people who admit they are lost or confused? ]

You asked why do we insist on preaching to people who aren't searching? I think I've said before that my statements are directed at someone searching for Christ. I am not picking you out to tell you about Christ, but it seems that you are the one who takes offense at 'everything' I say, no matter who I'm answering.

When questions are asked, I'm thinking they are actually being asked by someone who wants an answer, but possibly these questions are just being asked by someone who just wants to cause conflict. So unless you are asking the questions, my answers are not directed at you, at least not until you respond to answers that I have directed to someone else.

Doesn't sound fair that Christians answers are attacked and blame is put on us because we had the nerve to answer them.

You seem to be very angry at Christians, could it be that maybe you're not sure that what we are saying isn't true?

I have noticed that the only Christians you seem to agree with are the ones who walk that fine line of staying on the good side of non-believers. Sorry, but I'm not going to try to pacify everyone, no Christian can. God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"
And, "if you are ashamed of Me, I will be ashamed of you." This is something that all Christians need to remember. We are to please God, not man.

And I am definitely not ashamed of my Heavenly Father, and His Son, my Savior!

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Originally Posted by Donna Mae

God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"

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When did he say that?

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God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"

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God never said that, some ancient man said it, to scare the bejesus out of you, and make you stay in line.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

When did he say that?

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Mark 9:38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, "for whoever is not against us is for us."

Sorry, I got it switched.

Matthew 10:32-33
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

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Originally Posted by Donna Mae

You asked why do we insist on preaching to people who aren't searching? I think I've said before that my statements are directed at someone searching for Christ. I am not picking you out to tell you about Christ, but it seems that you are the one who takes offense at 'everything' I say, no matter who I'm answering.

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I was talking about the collective "you" not you specifically. And I'd love for you to point out where I have taken offence to anything you said, short of when you likened atheists to Nazis (which you admitted was wrong to do).

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Doesn't sound fair that Christians answers are attacked and blame is put on us because we had the nerve to answer them.

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And what "attack" are you referring to?

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You seem to be very angry at Christians, could it be that maybe you're not sure that what we are saying isn't true?

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You seem to be very angry at atheists, could it be your faith is not as strong as you think it is? Please, Donna I'm not an angry person, and I'm certainly not angry at Christians. What gives you the impression I'm angry at Christians - the fact that I don't agree with you? The fact that I flip your arguments around so maybe, just maybe you'll gain a little bit of empathy?

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I have noticed that the only Christians you seem to agree with are the ones who walk that fine line of staying on the good side of non-believers. Sorry, but I'm not going to try to pacify everyone, no Christian can. God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"
And, "if you are ashamed of Me, I will be ashamed of you." This is something that all Christians need to remember. We are to please God, not man.

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Golly, that sure sounds like you're judging me... And why are you holding it against me that I agree with or respond well to people who are polite and respectful? You know, the ones who wouldn't dream of saying atheists are like Nazis? I've never asked to be pacified, and I've never asked that you change your core beliefs. I've asked for basic respect, tolerance and politeness - things everyone, regardless of their faith deserves.

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And I am definitely not ashamed of my Heavenly Father, and His Son, my Savior!

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Nor should you be. Nor have I demanded you be. But you can be proud of your savior and still be respectful of others.

Donna, if you don't like what I or other non-Christians have to say on this site, please, do us all a favor and add us to your "ignore" list.

Well, I don't know? Why would I think you are angry at Christians?
I agree. The ignore list sounds like a good idea for both of us.

Actually it is from the bible, words of Chriist, those that are not with me are against me ( I don't have the chapter or verse as I write, but it is there) And it was written to set the boundary lines, that there is no other way, that unless one is a Christian, they are not saved and not part of the fellowship.
In the very early church there were parts of the service that a non christian was not allowed to even be at, since they viewed it as a Christian activity.

I agree with what jillian said. No one is suggesting you should be ashamed of your beliefs. Just the opposite. But you are asking that we be ashamed of ours. And that shows a disrespect for others that I can't stomach.

Chuck, I have a question about that verse, and you are very knowledgeable about the bible, so I think you should be able to help me.

Is the intent of "not with me you are against me" that, "those who are not Christian will not be saved by me" or that "those who are not Christian are my enemies/hate me"? I ask this because your post seems to indicate the former, but I have read many people's posts on this site which seem to imply the latter. Or is this something that is subject to man's interpretation?

I'm not trying to bait you, I really am curious about that. Obviously the different interpretations have very different meanings. If anyone else knows or has a comment, feel free to add your remarks. I don't want to get too far off topic, but I'd like to know.

Hi Jill and all: (Fr. Chuck - Miss your eye but like the new one too)

Had to look this up myself as we did not have bible study in Catholic church, but I most defintely heard the verse. It can be found in Luke 11:23

And it seems pretty easy to understand. Just like in life, either you enjoy someone's company and have them for dinner or you don't. No middle - no sitting on the fence.

It means to me that either you believe and accept Jesus in you hearts, or you don't.

Hope this helps:

Gathering with Jesus (11:23)
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters." (11:23)
In this context of spiritual conflict between demonic powers and Jesus' kingdom power there can be no neutrality.

We live in a world where agnosticism is sometimes considered a respectable alternative between faith in Christ and atheism. It is in the middle. It is neutral. It doesn't say I don't believe. It doesn't say I do believe. It says, I don't know.

But Jesus makes it clear that when mighty forces are arrayed against each other, individuals must take sides or they'll be crushed in the battle. The strong man, the prince of demons has taken a stand against the Anointed One and the angelic armies of heaven. The war has been won; the enemy has been dealt a decisive blow at Calvary. But there is an ongoing battle with frequent skirmishes, and it is fatal to be caught in No Man's Land. The final battle is to come: Armageddon (Revelation 16:16; 20:7-10).

Jesus' words in 11:23 pose a two-fold question:

Are you with Jesus?
Are you gathering with him?
You cannot straddle the fence. You are either with Jesus fully, or you oppose him and effectively scatter the harvest that he is trying to gather.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Jesus' words in 11:23 pose a two-fold question:

Are you with Jesus?
Are you gathering with him?
You cannot straddle the fence. You are either with Jesus fully, or you oppose him and effectively scatter the harvest that he is trying to gather.

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Perfect! This goes back to something I and others said earlier. I believe that one can be "with" Jesus and "gather" with him without believing in him. The great thing about Jesus was his teaching of peace and love and the Golden Rule. This as all come to be known as the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe that if one follows this ethic and lives by it, it doesn't matter whether they worship Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha or Bruce! If and when "Judgement Day" comes, I believe people will be judged on how they treated other PEOPLE not how they worshipped.

I take Luke 11:23 to mean that if you follow the teachings about morality and ethics than you are on the side of Jesus at least as far as Judgement Day is concerned.