Some people say that christians and catholics are very similar, but they do divide because of some major doctrinal issues. Such as mass or eucharist. Catholics believe that when we take communion that the wafer actually becomes the body of jesus and the wine or juice or whatever is used becomes the blood of jesus. Where as christians believe, that this is just symbolic and that christ body being broken and blood being shed was only to needed once to cover the sins of mankind. There are other differences, but I'm just doing this to clear the record. Agree, disagree why

Sorry you are completely off here,

Catholics are Christians, they are just one of the many denominations of Christians. And no there are not that much difference when you also look at the entire Orthodox Churches, the Anglican churches, and even many of the Lutheran churches.

So in this context you have to remember that the Catholic and Orthodox were the only Christian church for over 1500 years, and it is all of the newer churches that broke off from them that changed their rules of communion. But still there are many of the Protestant churches that still have and believe that Christ is in the host and wine, some differ as in at what point, many believe it is not in the cup or plate but in the eating and drinking.

But it is the fact that all believe Jesus is the Son of God, and that it is only though Christ that we are saved.

If you examine different religions, such as Luthern, Baptist, Amish, etc... you will find that they also have differences. In my opinion, the same holds true for Catholics. Even within each of those divisions, there are different doctrines.

All are considered Christian because of their belief in Christ. For one group to engage in saying that another group is not Christian because of differing beliefs, is faulty since the differences do not exclude a belief in Christ.

Now, when you think of other religions such as Hindu, Moslim, Judaism... and many others that do not think of Christ as the promised savior, then they would not be Christian... but are still Religious.

OK but if you go further back you'll see where the church le d by constantine, is turning to be more worldly and less spiritual, and rome is becoming more "churchy" if you will. And later on the papacy that they were the only mediators between god and man, which in acctuality jesus christ is the only mediator. Also another thing is penance. In this sacrament, the sinner confesses his sin and makes satisfaction, prayers, rituals. The word penance from the latin is a mistranslation, in both the vulgate and the english roman catholic douai-rheims bibles, of the word repent.(this is how it is in the greek original and the king james version. Such as the verse "repent and be coverted" is much diffrerent from "do penance and be converted". Which is a totally diferentr translation. Penance like nearly all accroding to rome man made religon, suggests merit and human works for salvation. Needless to say, only the priest can forgive sins. This practice is yet another contrast between biblical christianity, and roman catholosim, which is do and that which is already done. All man made religons says do and live. Gods word says, live through faith and then do. Our salvation is free because the lord jesus has already paid for it. God will not require the same debt twice-from christs nail pierced hand, it is all of grace.

Please don't even go with that silly constantine thing, sorry but obviously you have been reading some of the anti catholic material that is not based on much fact but just enough to make it sound logical. Sounds a lot like that hate fulled material from Chick Publications.

But while he was invovled in the church, and actually helped spread it greatly, he was far from controlling it, And he had no influence over the Church in the EAST which became the Orthodox Churches, So one only has to look and see the similar teachings of the two to see what little effect he had on the church at all. The Papacy was and is from the fact that every denomination has a leader, The Pope and the main Orthodox Churches, trace their linage to one of the original Apostles. But every church has a leader, The President of the Southern Baptist, or the President of the MO Synd Lutheran church, the Orthodox have their Patriarch, the Anglican have the Arch Bishop. One may disagree with aspects given to the Pope, but often not any more so than what Billy Graham may have said that God tells him specifily certain things, and no protestant seems to disagree that he talks to God??

There were some things done wrong in the church 600 years ago but then that does not make it wrong or unChristian, in that errors were corrected.
And no the Catholics do not say that only the priest can forgive, but they do say that because of the Keys of the Kingdom the ability to bind on earth, as written in the bible, the preists also do have the ability to proclaim Gods word for the person who does repent.
This is also no different than is done in again, most Lutheran Churches, Methodist churches, and of course all Orthodox Churches and all Anglican churches. It is not just a Catholic doctrine, and I challenge it is actually the Christian doctrine of most Christians. I have to ask and wonder why the newer churches stopped doing it, it seems they lost part of the teachings and part of the power of the church given to them by God.

I would say you really need to go and learn what the Catholic Church really teaches, and also what the Anglican and the Orthodox teach and you will find that many of the things you may have been taught have some flaws in them.

Again there are many what I call hate publications that teach a lot of wrong things about Catholics today, and of course we can attack many teachings and practics of many denominations, I prefer not to, and seek fellowship among all Christians.

OK I'm not trying to fight or nothing, you seem very smart
, but tell me what is your say on the virgin mary.

Even the conservative Missouri-Synod Lutherans accept Catholics as Christian.

I agree with Fr_Chuck. Please read up on the Catholic Church and its beliefs--and use not only their own materials but also fair comparisons with other church bodies. You are being brainwashed by someone or something.

It is easier to side with someone then answer the question, what is your say on the virgin mary.

Yes, actually the catechism of the MO Synd Lutheran in the 1970's and the one of the Catholic church were exactly the same except for one word,
I still have a copy of the Lutheran one here on my book shelf.

Also read about the teachings of the eastern Orthodox Church, remember they and the Catholic church was the same, the Bishops of the East and West made the choices, From the Orthodox teachings you read and find out a lot about what the early church did believe, ( if you believe the Catholic church was tainted) since the Orthodox Church was not under the POPE so they could not have been effected.

And a good "healthly" discussion is great, I was just getting warmed up and even PM a couple of the good Catholic posters to get invovled.

But if you want to discuss a few of the things it is great, that is the reason for the "discussion" board so that a more "excited" discussion can take place.

I will not defend everything the Catholic Church did, esp in that 1000 to 1600 time frame, but what happened then is not what is happening now.
There was a time frame where political and religion lines were confused,

What we look at today is what the church is today.

As for the Virgin Mary, I've always understood that she is revered and respected as the mother of Jesus. That's how my Catholic neighbors think of her. That's how Lutherans think of her.

Did you have other questions about her?

All right, is it fair to say that catholics side with human reason and the word of god as the foundation, where biblical christians believe the word of god as the foundation. I acctually asked I few catholics this, who is right? Human tradition, pope or priest, or whAat gods word has to say and they said human tradition.

She was the mother of Christ, a virgin ( not knowing man until Christ was Born)... The catholic Church teaches she remained a virgin her entire life.

As to if she ever had sex or if she had other children, I don't know, I am not sure anyone really knows and in the end I don't think it really matters one way of they other. If Jesus had brothers or sisters, ( 1/2) or if they were just step brothers and sisters from Joseph, I personally don't know why it makes a differnece at all.

If you are asking about the notion that she is worshiped and Catholics pray to her, no they don't, that is a misunderstood teachings.
Did a few groups within the church do it, yes they did, did a few of the bishops try to push this teachings yes they did, did it ever become a teachings of the church no it did not. Take for example the Baptist Church here in Atlanta, that accepts homosexuals does that mean all Baptists accept this ? No of course not, so there were some who followed incorrect teachings.

Are there perhaps some Catholics today that does not understand, of course, are there Lutherans that don't understand how they are saved, of course Iknow many.

Many churches, including the Orthodox, the Anglican, some of the Lutherans and Methodist, all include some level of prayers though the saints, yes they do. Do Catholics do it more than others, yes, but then they are not alone, a large number of what is called Protestant also do it.

It is a matter of actually knowing the teachings of the church. Please understand there are groups out there, that I challenge are not really Christian ( since they attack other Christians) that do little but publish anti Catholic, anti mormom and anti JW material. Their matieral have a lot of 1/2 truths that are easily accepted by those that have not studied the church.

You would be surpirsed at how close the teachings of the Lutheran, the Anglican and the Catholic Churches are. If you were blind folded and taken into differnet churches, in many you would have a hard time telling which was which by just sitting in the pew on Sunday morning.

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

all right, is it fair to say that catholics side with human reason and the word of god as the foundation, where biblical christians believe the word of god as the foundation. i acctually asked i few catholics this, who is right? human tradition, pope or priest, or whAat gods word has to say and they said human tradition.

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From what I know of Catholic belief in the Chicago area, the answer would be that the Word of God is the foundation of their faith--not the church itself or its traditions or its pope or the parish priest.

Why do make shrines unto the virgin mary and pray mostly to her, the bible does say don't make any graven images, yet I see so many catholics with shrines in their yard, or check this out, praying to trees because it looks like her or someone said she appeared there, and no I don't live in some rural town, this is happening in chicago

God's word is always first in the Catholic Church, but traditions can also be helpful in tying us to the early church. A tradition is merely a practice that has been used for years. For example Baptist have a tradition of communion on a certain day each year. And only having it once a year.

The methodist have a tradition ( ones I know) of communion twice a month. MO Synds used to have a tradition of having communion every Sunday >>> I have heard this has changed.

But Catholics change a lot of traditions to as they need to be, Vactican II has changed a big group of changes.

But Catholics are bibical, in fact they read the actual bible verses more in their services than most other Protestant churches. Again from that tradition when people did not own bibles, so there was several readings of OT and NT each service.

But no, what you call "Bibical Churches" to Catholics are the ones who are using "mans reason" since we feel they left the true faith, and are using their own opinons of the bible to base their teachings on and actually accept emotional responses instead of relying on bibical, and looking also at the early church fathers to help understand what the bible is telling us.
And following that teachings of the bible, though their practice, our traditions. So to the Catholic, we see it the exact opposite.
But just like in any church, many of the lay people, do not know what their church ( denomination) teaches,

Check out the other post I just made, but continue with this one.

A few get it wrong, but then I could pick on protestants who get it wrong on things.

The issue is, that no, they do not pray TO Mary, the prayers are always to God, *** Just like the Protestants are not suppose to pray to JESUS, but to God though Jesus, but many get that wrong also.
But they are to ask Mary to intercede to Jesus, for Jesus to Go to the Father. But again, this is not just the Catholics, as noted before, all of the Orthodox, the Anglican, most of the Lutherans and some of the Methodists all do Saints, that they ask intercession though.

I would have to almost ask, why the few other Protestant churches don't?

Do you not believe that those who died in Christ are not in heaven ? If they are alive in Christ, why can't they also go to Christ on our behalf.
No different than putting a pray list in your Sunday handout

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

why do make shrines unto the virgin mary and pray mostly to her, the bible does say dont make any graven images, yet i see so many catholics with shrines in their yard, or check this out, praying to trees because it looks like her or someone said she appeared there, and no i dont live in some rural town, this is happening in chicago

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I didn't see people praying to that image on Lower Wacker--revering and in awe of the picture which you have to admit was very realistic-looking. Like Fr_Chuck said, some who misunderstand what Mary is all about will pray to her, but that is not church teaching.

Graven images? -- all those SUVs and McMansions owned by Christians are not graven images of the almighty dollar?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I didn't see people praying to that image on Lower Wacker--revering and in awe of the picture which you have to admit was very realistic-looking. Like Fr_Chuck said, some who misunderstand what Mary is all about will pray to her, but that is not church teaching.

Graven images?? -- all those SUVs and McMansions owned by Christians are not graven images of the almighty dollar?

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Yes, my Father in Law got messed up with one of those "Name it and Claim it Churches" they put a photo of the item that God is going to give them and pray for that, and claim it as thiers and it willl be thiers.

I do believe God does provide ( even the name of my ministry) but I also know he does it on his terms and by giving us our daily bread, not our monthly loaf. I don't remember any one of the 12 retireing to a large castle on the ocean or being drove around in a limo ( so to speak)

So yes one in any denomination has to worry about what god they are worshiping and following a pastor or priest that may not always be teachings Gods word.

Wondergirl and Fr. Chuck have answered very well. I would only add that the Pope is really the original major difference between Catholics and Protestants. The differences in "dogma" came later. When Luther posted his complaints at Wittenberg, he never dreamed his action would result in what it did. He was, after all, a Catholic priest. But what he did forced the Catholic Church to mend its ways. By 1560, the Church had begun its reform but it was too late and Christianity has never been the same since.

As to the Eucharist, as Chuck said, many Protestants see it pretty much the way Catholics do. Some don't. Either side can provide good arguments for its position. It's one of those things that really can't be "proven" one way or the other. In any case, arguing over dogma leads nowhere.

The core of Christianity is love - love God, and love your neighbor. All the rest is just a footnote.

Yes, Luther had no desire to start a new church, he merely wanted to change some of the things wrong within the church he was in.
And so much of it had to do with political issues that are seldom addressed, at the time the Princes of Germany were looking for a break from Rome, not as much for religious ideas but to stop having to pay the high taxes Rome put on them. So when Rome basically sentenced Luther to death for his challenge, the Princes of Germany used this as a symbol to get behind and fight for their independence. Had the political issues not been happening, Luther would have merely been another dead priest killed by refusal to follow rome at the time.

I guess it is only because of the lack of knowledge of the Orthodox Churches, that pepole don't talk about them more, since they have their Patriarchs which to them are equal to the Pope. ( or in their teachings all of the Leaders ( Bishops) were all equal.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Wondergirl and Fr. Chuck have answered very well. I would only add that the Pope is really the original major difference between Catholics and Protestants. The differences in "dogma" came later. When Luther posted his complaints at Wittenberg, he never dreamed his action would result in what it did. He was, after all, a Catholic priest. But what he did forced the Catholic Church to mend its ways. By 1560, the Church had begun its reform but it was too late and Christianity has never been the same since.

As to the Eucharist, as Chuck said, many Protestants see it pretty much the way Catholics do. Some don't. Either side can provide good arguments for its position. It's one of those things that really can't be "proven" one way or the other. In any case, arguing over dogma leads nowhere.

The core of Christianity is love - love God, and love your neighbor. All the rest is just a footnote.

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What do catholics, such as yourselves, believe will get you into heaven.

I'm Lutheran. "By grace are you saved, through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9. My Catholic neighbors believe this too.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'm Lutheran. "By grace are you saved, through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9. My Catholic neighbors believe this too.

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A United Methodist Amen!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'm Lutheran. "By grace are you saved, through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9. My Catholic neighbors believe this too.

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except I attend a non-denominatiopnal church.

Interestingly, Fr. Charles Chiniquy refused to swear to accept and preach what the holy fathers decreed on the grounds that the holy fathers never agreed with each other on anything.

To figure out the difference you need to look at what their teachings are based on. TRUE christians follow in Jesus footsteps and this means not only in word but also in actions, as he said in John 13:15 - "For I set the pattern for You, that just as I did to You, You should do also."
Interestingly Pope Paul VI stated when addressing the United Nations in 1965 "The peoples of the earth turn to the United Nations as the last hope of concord and peace; We presume to present here, together with Our own, their tribute of honor and of hope."
Does that harmonise with Jesus sayings at Matt 6:9,10 where Jesus says to pray for God's Kingdom to bring peace and security? (See also Daniel 2:44) Or Psalms 146:3 not to put our trust in mere nobles or earthling man?
An obvious difference is that Jesus instructed all christians in Luke 6:27,28 to "continue loving our enemies, doing good to those hating us, to bless those cursing us and to pray for those insulting us." Do people follow Jesus pattern when they go out to the killing fields supposedly "in the name of the Father"? Or does it appear that they ignore the apostles words in Acts 5:29 to obey God as ruler rather than man, by going along with what governments dictate?
As regards the Virgin Mary, in John 14:6,14 Jesus said that No one comes to the Father except through him, and whatever we ask in HIS name will be given - no mention of Mary.
You are quite right about the graven images too, which is why true christians also avoid wearing crosses etc. After all, this "tradition" dates back to Nimrod who was deified as the God Tammuz - his symbol being the cross, which stood for the first letter of his deified name. Nimrod was recorded in the bible as being an enemy of God (Gen 10:9). Would God approve of his people worshipping something that represents an opposer of his but is being used in his or his sons' name?
2 Tim 3:16 states that "ALL scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight and for disciplining in righteousness." So since God has clearly set out rules and regulations throughout his Word in how to worship him, I guess there is no excuse for traditions etc to creep into ones faith if they clearly do not originate with God.

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

some people say that christians and catholics are very similar, but they do divide because of some major doctrinal issues.

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That is true.

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such as mass or eucharist. Catholics believe that when we take communion that the wafer actually becomes the body of jesus and the wine or juice or whatever is used

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The wine.

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becomes the blood of jesus.

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Correct. We believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

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where as christians believe,

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Catholics are Christian.

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that this is just symbolic

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I'm not certain, but I think most Christians, at least the world's largest Christian denominations (i.e. Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist), teach belief in the Real Presence:

1 Different understandings
1.1 Roman Catholic and Orthodox views
1.2 Lutherans - the Sacramental Union: "in, with, and under the forms of bread and wine"
1.3 Anglicans - broad range of opinions
1.4 Methodism - Real Presence as "Holy Mystery"
1.5 Reformed (Calvinist, Presbyterian, most United churches) - "Real Presence" as "pneumatic presence"
1.6 Other Protestants - no Real Presence
Real Presence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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and that christ body being broken and blood being shed was only to needed once to cover the sins of mankind.

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That is Catholic Teaching.

1 Peter 3
18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,

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there are other differences, but I'm just doing this to clear the record. Agree, disagree why

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I agree that there are doctrinal differences between Catholics and other Christians. Yes.

Sincerely,

De Maria