For those having questions and wishing to know what the Catholic position is on communication with the deceased, please read the following information:
EVP and Vatican
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For those having questions and wishing to know what the Catholic position is on communication with the deceased, please read the following information:
EVP and Vatican
Do you have a question?
Yes, the same as with all Christians, communication with the dead is strictly forbidden within any Christian denomination and over all religion since it is specificly listed as something that we should not do.
Certainly, I do! If communication within "every" Christian denomination is forbidden (that is inaccurate at best), then why does the Vatican, with a sitting Pope, of all places, allow it (as shown in the link)? And why do Catholics communicate with "dead" saints and ask those proposed to become saints to intercede for them in a matter concerning a miracle, a requirement for the person's sainthood? They should thus refrain from doing so immediately if they want to live up to their teachings on this. Otherwise, it is just idle talk and people can continue to do so as they feel led.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
You obvously do not understand saints, asking them to intercede ( pray to Jesus for you) is for from sitting down and talking with them.
And yes, it is in the bible directly about talking to, and calling up the dead to talk to them. And it is very strictly warned against.
So yes, if any Christian church follows the bible, ( and if they don't they are not Christians of course) then communication with the dead is not allowed.
Sad you wish to attack a religion you obvoiusly know nothing about.
Just a couple of thoughts on this topic.
The passages in scripture refer to communication with those who are dead in the flesh (no differentiation given for saints or not that I can find).
I personally do not understand why we would even want to pray to a saint who is dead in the flesh when we can pray directly to the Father in the name of the Son. What could be more effective than coming, in person, and speaking one to one to the Almighty God, the creator of the universe? Most people find it hard to find time to pray, and if I have a choice between spending the time that I have by going to Almighty God or to someone else, the decision, for me at least, is simple.
Do not many attacks come from those that know the least?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Chuck, and I don't use the word "Father" as that is reserved for the One and Only Father, God in the Holy Trinity, not for mere mortals. I understand more about Christianity than Catholics who don't even read the Bible by their own admission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
What? You say "You obvously do not understand saints, asking them to intercede ( pray to Jesus for you) is for from sitting down and talking with them." If asking them to intercede or pray to Jesus for you is "far" from sitting down and talking with them then what form of communication are you carrying on? Even if it is mental (and it should never be 'praying' as we should NEVER pray to mere saints), it is still a form of communication with those who are not around in physical bodies, i.e., those who have passed on, FYI.
Again, if it is in the Bible about directly talking to and calling up the dead to talk to them and it is warned against, then what are Catholics doing allowing the practice as the Webpage LINK so clearly shows? You failed to answer that question, Chuck, please don't shirk from answering it if you claim to know so much.
And your comment about attacking a religion leaves much to be desired. I am not attacking a "religion" but trying to understand the hypocrisy within the Catholic Church in saying one thing and doing another. Now, that's what is truly sad. If that isn't the height of hypocrisy I don't know how it could come any closer.
Catholics in america get abortions, use birth control and speed in their cars. Baptists have sex before marriage, and Anglicans have gay relastionships Just because people have a religioius denomination they claim to go to, does not mean they follow proper religious teachings.
And you are not trying to understand, since you have some preconcieved ideas about saints, and the differnece in a one sided request and calling them forward to appear or calling them up to talk with them.
Another Catholic bashing, it sure gets old and meaningless. Praying, as asking for intercession, is praying. It is a form of communication, yes, but it is not like conjuring up a dead spirit and talking to them.
This could be ended simply without accusations of "Catholic bashing". Just point out the passages in scripture where scripture tells us to pray to saints who are dead in the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by shygrneyzs
I am in NO WAY an expert about religion, and/or Catholic religion, but I do have some views on this subject. I was raised Catholic, but by the time I was in 3rd grade in my neighborhood Catholic school I had decided I didn't believe most of what they were telling me. At that time I stopped going to church and as luck would have it, my mother remarried and when we moved the new Catholic school didn't have room for me. So I left the school as well.
As that child, many things confused me, and I can't say I'm any more clear about it as an adult. One of those things was the "false God" thing and the "do not pray to objects" thing. Yet, as we all know, statues of saints and the Blessed Mother are prayed to all the time. I have to agree, that if I'm going to pray, I'm going to pray to God, not a statue.
Again as a teen, I was invited to participate in some teen activities at a non-Catholic church and was told by doing so it was against my religion--and a sin. Well, I went and had fun and the only thing I can think of that might have happened was that I was treated nicely and respectfully by those who I participated with. Why that would be a sin, I have no idea... and don't really want to know at this point.
Now, to the topic of speaking to the dead. Jesus is physically dead, although in some beliefs he either never existed, never existed but is still coming, or he has already "risen" from the dead. Saints are dead. You have to be dead to be named a saint I think. When people talk to Jesus and/or saints, they are not usually doing any kind of ritual to "call them to come"... usually the only thing happening is a one-sided conversation between the prayer and the being they feel can help them with their problem.
When humans try to converse with the dead, often in the past, but not so much now, there are rituals. I would think it's the "ritual" that becomes problematic. This can be considered taking steps to purposely "calling up" the dead. I have experienced many oddities that I have, after much thought, identified as paranormal experiences. I have never spoken to a ghost nor has one spoken to me. But I talk to my mother all the time; she's been deceased for 8 years. She doesn't answer me... at least I've never heard her. But I can't think that doing this is a sin. And even if it was, I'd do it anyway... I love and miss my mother.
When the Vatican issues documents, they can be found on the Vatican website:
Vatican: the Holy See
I do not find an article on the Vatican website like the article says.
Catholics believe the saints are alive in Heaven. In a way, more alive than we are here on Earth. We ask our family and friends to pray for us who are living with us. We also ask those who have gone before us, and are in God's presence in Heaven, to pray for us too. After all those who are in Heaven, see God face to face. And this isn't an ether/or thing. We ask the Saints to pray for us, but we also pray straight to God too.
Exactly.
Yes it is completely sad when I will assume one Christian attacks another Christian because of they way they wish to Worship Jesus. The Catholic Church in combination with the Orthodox Church seem to get attacks I guess because they are the largest and oldest groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by shygrneyzs
But as for as Saints, they are in the Teaching of most of the Protestant groups also but many forget, in all the early Lutheran churches, saints were fully used as with the Catholic Church today, the Methodist Church, the Anglican churches, Episcopal churches. All use saints, maybe not to the extent of the Catholic Church but named and used in most of the formal services. All of the Protestant Anglican and Episcopal have saint days, have services on those holy days and more.
Most of the ones that attack I will normally assume have just not taken the time to openly study the early churches history, or even worst they wish to take the faults of a church 500 years ago and hold it against them today.
Roll away the stone and jesus stood before the tume and called to lazeruth to come forth and he did.
The difficulty that I have with this is that we do not find that differentiation in scripture, and the references in scripture to communication with the dead are not speaking about whether a person is alive in Christ or not but whether they are dead in the flesh. The best argument for that point would be if the prayer was limited to the two persons who were taken to heaven without dying in the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
Are you aware of any Biblical references which demonstrate communication with those who are dead in the flesh being endorsed by God? I ask because ultimately regardless of what anyone believes personally, that would be the defining source for me.
What about on the mount when Moses and Elijah, came down and talked with Jesus.
Also there are many sourses that relate to the saints being alive in heaven, from the 12 sitting and judging the tribes of Isreal, or others.
And are we not all to pray for one another.? Do you not pass out a prayer list in church for each to pray, doyou call up friends to pray for a family member. Then why not ask one of the saints in heaven to also pray for you, to go to Christ on your behalf.
Jesus is God and was transfigured in His glory at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
But none that tell us to communicate with them. And the reference to communication with the dead does not relate to their state of salvation, but specifically refers to the state of their flesh. We have one case in scripture of someone speaking with a saint in heaven and that was Saul - and that did not end well.Quote:
Also there are many sourses that relate to the saints being alive in heaven, from the 12 sitting and judging the tribes of Isreal, or others.
The ones to whom I pass out prayer requests are all alive in the flesh.Quote:
And are we not all to pray for one another.? Do you not pass out a prayer list in church for each to pray, doyou call up friends to pray for a family member. Then why not ask one of the saints in heaven to also pray for you, to go to Christ on your behalf.
Hi, communication with the dead is impossible, so I don't know what we're all arguing about.
2 Samuel 28 records one occasion where God permitted it to occur, but this one event did result in judgment against Saul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
But even if that event had not occurred, a sin does not occur simply because something can be done, but it results from disobedience, and in the case of sin against God, this involves sin in the heart even where no actual deed has occurred. Read Matthew 5:21-26 for example.
Hi Tj3Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
It seems to me that the Old Testament prohibitions were against sorcery, witchcraft, the conjuring of the dead, seeking counsel of the dead, or trying to bring back the dead. In Luke, we see that God is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. For to Him all are alive.
Now it is true that I do not hold Scripture alone as my final and only authority on maters of faith and morals. I take into consideration what the church fathers believed and the teachings that have been passed down through the centuries. I know in this we disagree. So, I will have to leave it at that.
The word which is used covers a multitude of different situations regarding communication with the dead, and is not as restrictive as you might hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
Keep in mind that all whether in heaven or hell are alive, the difference being that those in hell are in eternal torment. If we ignore the Biblical context which refers to being dead in the flesh, and take your suggested definition, then communication with the dead in hell should also be acceptable.Quote:
In Luke, we see that God is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. For to Him all are alive.
Also, let's deal with the context of the scriptural passage that you mentioned by going to the question that Jesus was asked which resulted in that comment:
Mark 12:18-23
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife."
NKJV
Note that Jesus was speaking in the context of answering the Sadducees regarding whether the dead resurrect or not. The Sadducees denied the resurrection of the dead and Jesus countered, so Jesus answered them thusly:
Mark 12:24-27
24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."
NKJV
I used the passage in Mark, but the passage in Luke says the same. Here is an excerpt from Jesus' answer as recorded in Luke:
Luke 20:37-40
37 Now even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." 39 Then some of the scribes answered and said, "Teacher, You have spoken well." 40 But after that they dared not question Him anymore.
NKJV
The Sadducees position would have those that die stay dead, whereas Jesus countered them by saying that God is a God of the living, not a God of the dead. This passage therefore has no relevance regarding whether we are permitted to communicate with saints in heaven.
Hello everyone, I have a little question. Does Christianity believes in communicating with the dead at all i.e. is possible ? If you don't believe in it in the first place then there is no point in arguing on whether it is allowed or not.
I am a Muslim, we don't believe in communicating with the dead. I don't know about the Jews. Would like to know their opinion as well. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by red_cartoon
I responded a similar question raised earlier today by Capuchin. My answer was:
2 Samuel 28 records one occasion where God permitted it to occur, but this one event did result in judgment against Saul.
But even if that event had not occurred, a sin does not occur simply because something can be done, but it results from disobedience, and in the case of sin against God, this involves sin in the heart even where no actual deed has occurred. Read Matthew 5:21-26 for example.
Tj3, I have read that post of yours before putting my question :)
Actually I wanted a straight and simple answer. YES or NO type. It's not easy for me to collect many versions of the Bible. So giving references from Bible is not of much help since I cannot verify it. For the time being I will just trust your words :)
Clearly if it happened once, the answer is YES, it is possible, but it is forbidden in scripture. You can check out the references on Blue Letter BibleQuote:
Originally Posted by red_cartoon
Happened once, may be more than once too if someone could lookup all versions the Bibles. But these are biblical characters, not ordinary people like you and me. Ever seen an ordinary Christian communicating with a dead person ? My definition of ordinary Christian is an average man who practices his religion properly.
The versions of the Bibles are for the most part just different translations.Quote:
Originally Posted by red_cartoon
The Biblical characters are just ordinary people, with the same temptations, the same faults, the desires, etc. and that is what is so remarkable, the Bible shows how God can work in and through the lives of fallible humans like you and me if we are willing to turn our lives over to Him and accept His offer of payment for our sins - the price of which was paid on the cross. What made many of these people different was their faith in the one true God.
Have I see an ordinary person communicating with a dead person? As I pointed out previously, the sin starts in the heart. A person has sinned by trying to communicate with the dead whether God permits the communication to occur.
Hi, Red. I can answer from the perspective of a Christian who believes that Acts 2:4 applies to the Church of all ages, and with some knowledge of other groups within Christianity. I have never known of a Christian attempting to communicate with a deceased person, for the simple fact that we recognize it as a forbidden activity. This is because we have no way to determine whether we speak with a departed soul or with a demonic (unclean) spirit. It is most likely to be the latter, in which case we would be conversing with an enemy of God who would surely deceive us. As to the matter of prayer, the Master of prayer, Jesus, told us how and to whom we should pray. "Our Father, who is in Heaven".Quote:
Originally Posted by red_cartoon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Hi Galveston1, thanks for the nice answer. So what I understand now is that, no good christian would even think of communicating with a dead person since this thought will make him/her a sinner at heart. Very well, I don't want anybody to become a sinner. I just wanted to look at this from a logical point of view. Is it possible at all ? Have any real person ever communicated with a dead person ? I think references from myths/legends/scriptures are not acceptable in this context as we cannot verify them.
Well, before we get a lot of replies on this, also consider that it is impossible to ascertain who (if anyone) we would be talking to in a séance setting (the normal thing for those claiming communicatiion with the dead). From what I understand, the room is darkened, which of course makes fraud possible. Of more importance, there are such things as evil/unclean spirits. They have access to history and past deeds of people and can masquerade as anyone they choose. (Refer back to that passage about King Saul and the witch of Endor). What Saul spoke with seems to be an evil spirit, because it tells Saul that he, Saul, will be with that spirit by the end of the day. Now, the prophet Samuel was a godly man who went to Paradise, while Saul became a suicide in the course of his rebellion and obviously went to Hell. Do Muslims believe that there are evil spirits?Quote:
Originally Posted by red_cartoon
If I may jump into this conversation for a moment to bring out some things: The act of communication with those who have passed on to the Afterlife or Hereafter is not only being thought about but is actually happening now (with direct EVIDENCE about the communication, both in voice form to actual materializations of those who have passed on)! So, YES it IS not only possible but a real fact. Many Christians, not falling for the control-oriented churches that tend to prohibit it are engaging in such communications, with God by their side to assure it is not mere trickery from the adversary. The Biblical passage that most applies to such communications is the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by red_cartoon
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the Word of Wisdom; to another the Word of Knowledge by the same Spirit; To another Faith by the same Spirit; to another the Gifts of Healing by the same Spirit; To another the Working of Miracles; to another Prophecy; to another DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the Interpretation of Tongues:" -- 1 CORINTHIANS 12:7,8,9,10 (KJV)
However, you say you do not want Scriptures as you cannot verify them. In other words, Scripture is unverifiable according to your beliefs. It is not, I can assure you, to we who are Christians, however, if you want something that you CAN readily verify about spirit communication, please visit the following website and I encourage you to write to the lawyer who owns the website for verification and empirical evidence of communication with those in the Afterlife. There is even an offer of One Million Dollars to anyone who can disprove the Afterlife and after eight years, no one has been able to do so! How's that for a great track record on the Afterlife and its residents!
Look at the various links, including some concerning the Pope and Christians, at:
AFTERLIFE- DOES IT EXIST? THE OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE
But please DO read through it thoroughly and then I would be very interested in hearing what you have to say about it! Thanks.
Scripture itself prohibits communication with the dead, for example:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
Deut 18:10-13
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.
NKJV
How do you come to the belief that this endorses communication with the dead?Quote:
The Biblical passage that most applies to such communications is the following:
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the Word of Wisdom; to another the Word of Knowledge by the same Spirit; To another Faith by the same Spirit; to another the Gifts of Healing by the same Spirit; To another the Working of Miracles; to another Prophecy; to another DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the Interpretation of Tongues:" -- 1 CORINTHIANS 12:7,8,9,10 (KJV)
If I am not wrong, interested living people are supposed to talk to the dead person through a medium in a séance setting. Muslims don't believe in any sort of mediumship. We believe (as per our teachings of Islam) any person can communicate directly with the Almighty Lord all by himself through his prayers. No medium, magic, relic or help of a priest is required. Just be true to yourself. And it is said that the Almighty is pleased when the believers are communicating i.e. praying. If I can communicate with my Lord without any intermediate medium, then I don't need any medium at all to communicate with any other dead or living being. And if it is possible at all, then it should be possible in daylight. Dark room , etc. mumbo-jumbo not accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
We do believe in Satan, and satan is also a creation of the Almighty. But has the ability to influence peoples mind, not interact with their real world. i.e. satan cannot hurt a fly, but influence you to kill others or do other sort of sins. But again, satan can only influence you, cannot make the decision for you. The decision is always yours. So one cannot say that he is innocent because he did not do it on his own will, satan made him do it and thus escape the punishments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Regarding other spirits, we also believe that there are intelligent beings other than humans. But they are not really spirits as presented in myths. They are referred to as 'jin' in our religion. The meaning of the word 'jin' (origin arabic) is foreigner, alien, unknown person, strangers and things like that. According to references from the Quran, jins are also creations of the Almighty God and they can be good or evil people just like humans. And they will also be judged on the final judgment day. As if they are another complete race like humans. And it is possible to communicate with them. According to Quranic history, both good and evil men have communicated with their respective counterparts of the jin-kind for cooperation, sharing knowledge, helping each-other etc. I ,personally, am not sure whether it means communicating with an spiritual race or just communicating with people living on other side of the ocean or any other planet. If you take foreigner as meaning of jin then it is indeed possible to communicate these days. If you take aliens from other planets as a meaning of jin, then we can say that will also be possible in future as well provided that we find those intelligent life form on other planets or they find us.
But no evidence or reference of talking to dead people. Sorry for the loooooong answer.
The portion of the Scripture I was using for some reason does not appear in your quote, so I shall answer your question. I was making reference to I CORINTHIANS 12:7, 8, 9, 10 (KJV). This Scripture plainly tells us that God has given us gifts with which to help ourselves and humanity. The particular gifts are then listed. One of them that applies is DISCERNING OF SPIRITS. In discerning of spirits, spirits must first be present in order to discern; and where do they come from or how do they arrive before us in order for us to discern? The fact that Jesus now lives in Spirit as does God, clearly demonstrates that since we communicate with Him (Jesus and God, one and the Same), we, in effect, summon Him each time we communicate through prayer or when simply speaking to Him in asking for advice, aid with our petitions, etc. as we feel led. We do not try to conjure Him up in any physical way but rather in a very natural way to commune with Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
We must understand that there are also evil forces that may indeed use conjuration for purposes other than actually helping oneself or another in an appropriate manner. Inappropriate conjuration or contact as with Black Magic, Voodoo, etc. is clearly wrong and that is what Scripture is speaking to. If it was not, then the Catholic Church, for instance, would be forbidden from communicating with those on the other side which includes saints they pray to, as you can clearly find prayers to the saints in most any Catholic supply store in individual prayers or in prayer books. One can try to say praying to saints (which one shouldn't do) is not the same as communicating, but to be correct, it is. Communication is communication whether we use prayer, thinking about them, seeing a picture of them in our mind and starting a mental dialogue, etc. Again, do we summon up a "dead" body to do this? No, we don't if there is indeed a way, and there is, (but read further). But we are not trying to do this when we talk to God or another who now resides in the world of Spirit. Scientifically speaking, there is hard EVIDENCE that such communication is possible and not just a figment of one's imagination. Just visit AFTERLIFE- DOES IT EXIST? THE OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE and read about the Christians (including the Vatican) that now allows it. And it mentions a high Vatican person who relayed this message of the Vatican allowing such communication, so it would be quite easy, I would imagine, to contact that person for verification, should you actually need it.
Now, to go a bit further, if we are to have the spirit of fear to use the gifts that God has given to us, then we will live in fear forever and that is not the way to do with such precious gifts. They should be used to help ourselves and people better understand things, just as many professionals help people understand things when people go to them for a session. The difference here is that many work with Spirit rather than things learned from books in the case of other professionals. And why would someone do this? You must remember that Jesus called up the Spirit of Lazarus and others. But before you say that that was Jesus and we are not Jesus, you must also remember that He gave us the SAME authority to do that very thing and more! Where? In the following Scripture:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and GREATER works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." -- JOHN 14:12 (KJV). This is very clear. He could summon up the departed and even bring them back to life. He says, indeed gives us the AUTHORITY to do the very same! So, why the fear in doing so? I listen to HIS word and Authority, not to man's or other Scripture such as the one you quoted which would contradict His word in this regard and was undoubtedly written by some of the thousands of Bible interpreters throughout history who may not have heard or understood Jesus' word on this (John 14:12), for a clearer picture and authority in that we can do what He does and even GREATER works. You, of course, are free to believe as you will but I believe in what Jesus told me in Scripture I can do In His Name! Again, we cannot and must not be afraid or try to drive away or discourage others from doing that which Jesus did. We can only ENCOURAGE it In His Name, as He has given us the authority to do so and people should know and understand that there is no greater power or authority!
Hi, Sky. Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that we can communicate with, say, my departed mother in the same way that we communicate with our Father, or Jesus? I am a Spirit Filled follower of Jesus and am well acquainted with the Scriptures that you quote, but if that is what you are saying, then friend, you are seriously confused. I hope I have misunderstood you.
Perhaps you did not read my post carefully, but I was responding to two different points that you raised - I note however that you did not address the scripture that I posted for some reason. Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself, so you cannot ignore one part of scripture that you don't happen to like.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
Actually, the purpose of the gifts was explained by Jesus:Quote:
I was making reference to I CORINTHIANS 12:7, 8, 9, 10 (KJV). This Scripture plainly tells us that God has given us gifts with which to help ourselves and humanity.
Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV
It is to be witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore any spirit which causes you to have "power" which does not move you in concert with the gospel for Christ as given in scripture is not from God.
Jesus is God. Praying to God is a form of worship. That is not the same as praying to dead saints.Quote:
The particular gifts are then listed. One of them that applies is DISCERNING OF SPIRITS. In discerning of spirits, spirits must first be present in order to discern; and where do they come from or how do they arrive before us in order for us to discern? The fact that Jesus now lives in Spirit as does God, clearly demonstrates that since we communicate with Him (Jesus and God, one and the Same), we, in effect, summon Him each time we communicate through prayer or when simply speaking to Him in asking for advice, aid with our petitions, etc. as we feel led. We do not try to conjure Him up in any physical way but rather in a very natural way to commune with Him.
Scripture makes no such differentiation.Quote:
We must understand that there are also evil forces that may indeed use conjuration for purposes other than actually helping oneself or another in an appropriate manner.
Hi, Galveston. You indeed have misunderstood me. I did not say that one can communicate with a departed loved one the same way as they do with God as with God we pray to Him as a form of communication. With a loved one, such as a mother as you say, it can be a mental form of communication when we think about her, along with other ways. Communication is indeed communication but one is about PRAYER (to God) whilst the other is about mere communication in the various ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Now let's get further into the part that you may have run into confusion with where I said "One can try to say praying to saints (which one shouldn't do) is not the same as communicating, but to be correct it is." Now, here, in essence, I am saying that even if it is wrong for people to 'pray' to saints, many do and that is a form of communication. Well, of course it is. Then I go on to say "Communication is communication whether we use prayer, thinking about them, seeing a picture .... ". And here I am saying that whether we pray, or think about someone, or see a picture of them and start mentally addressing them, etc. it is "communication". Once again, of course it is. But what I am not saying is that we 'pray' to our beloved departed in the way we pray to God as we can pray FOR our departed but not to them. Therefore, we 'communicate' with each in a very different way. It may have taken this much to address your question, but hope this clarifies matters now. Thank you for seeking further clarification.
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