As a counterpoint to Veritas "Why not Christianity?" I'd like to ask all believers why they believe what they believe? That includes Atheists. Why do you believe what you believe?
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As a counterpoint to Veritas "Why not Christianity?" I'd like to ask all believers why they believe what they believe? That includes Atheists. Why do you believe what you believe?
I'm a "non-believer" in Gods or the Supernatural, but I have beliefs in how humanity should treat each other and our shared Creation. The main thing that separates me from educated Christians is that I have no "belief" that human beings are immortal.
Could we say then, that you believe that human beings are not immortal? And also that you believe that nothing supernatural exists? And that you believe that there is no God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
Sure
Why do I believe in Jesus? Because He touched my life and made me His. Search my posts and you will find my reasons for what I believe. I believe because He made me to know Him. You cannot come to the Father unless Jesus calls you as His own.
Hello again, De Maria:
I'm an atheist. To me, that's a LACK of belief - not a belief in and of itself. You can choose to call me a "believer" in atheism if you wish. I'm not going to argue with you... Ok, yes, I will.
It seems to me, that you "believers" out there can't conceive of anyone who has an absence of belief. So, I don't think the discussion is about belief in God or the lack thereof. It's about your inability to grasp that some people have no belief, don't need any, and are perfectly comfortable with that fact.
When did I realize there wasn't any God? Just a little while after I found out Santa and the tooth fairy weren't real either. Why did I believe that instead of all the stuff I was taught in religious school?? Fortunately, I developed the ability to see through bunk.
When I say fortunately, I mean I'm really, really glad that I'm not under the religious SPELL that MOST of the people in the world are. Indeed, I think the SPELL has caused MORE damage to us than it has fixed.
Anthropologically speaking, I'm sure that a belief in the supernatural was NECESSARY for our ancient ancestors to have evolved. I'm sure that belief, along with learning how to plant seeds, led to our present day.
However, as a species, we've outgrown our NEED for religion. It's holding us back, not propelling us forward.
excon
I'm not entirely sure I agree with your initial statement excon, although I certainly agree with everything you say afterwards.
I think atheism is a belief, but the important thing is that it's a belief that does not require faith.
Lack of belief? That makes no sense to me. Its as though you are admitting a shortcoming in your ideas. Maybe another can explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
It seems to me:
That if you say that you "lack" a belief, then you are acknowledging that God exists, but you refuse to acknowledge that belief? You "lack" or "are deprived" of that belief.
Or do you simply mean that you believe that God does not exist?
Sincerely,
De Maria
A belief is deeply held and not subject to whimsmatical change. Opinion is my take on a matter. For instance, it is my belief that I was not created by God. It is my opinion that today's dance styles are for the most part vulgar; men and women look like animals in heat. My belief will not change because times change, the second is subject to all kinds of change.
I believe what I believe because of faith, and that's enough for me. Ive seen miracles happen, and that helps me believe even more
You can tell perhaps a real atheist, which I may beelive excon is, he does not really come out to attack other reliigions, he merely just does not believe they are true.
Compare this to several others who go out for their way to attack and to try and make christians doubt their faith, By judgig a persons action you can see basically that many are not really atheist but more anti religion
I guess I can see your point. Its like a belief is a highly ingrained opinion. But the point of the question is 'why do you believe what you believe'? Is there a reason why you believe you were not created by God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Goldenwolf gave a direct answer. Faith is enough for him.
Sincerely,
De Maria
First, let me say that to believe on faith alone is not true, whether it is in reference to believers or unbelievers alike. Someone who truly seeks the answer cannot believe because of ignorance. There must be some rational basis, or else the faith is not true. It is the same with people who say they have chosen to believe. As an atheist I have, according to this argument, chosen not to believe. Again, belief is not an act of will; would you as a believer stand before God and say, “I believe because I choose to believe, or that I believe because of faith,” I can't help but wonder what God might think on hearing these two reasons for believing.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I have not chosen to not believe based on faith or choice. To be honest with God, I read the Bible in the light of historical fact, such that it is, where the Bible was written. The Bible was written in a far more superstitious and ignorant time than we can ever imagine. Without science my conclusions about God would be as dishonest and ignorant as the time when the Bible was written.
I'll just quote someone else here… "Beautiful as is the morality of the New Testament, it can hardly be denied that its perfection depends in part on the interpretation which we now put on metaphors and allegories."
The Christian god is unsupported by the Christian scripture. In other words: There is no rational basis to believe in the Christian god.
It sounds as though you have read the Scripture but you were not convinced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Thanks for the explanation.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Dark_crow its true my beleifs are based on faith because faith is: 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen' Hebrews 11:1 As martin luther states here: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...ther-faith.txt
- - - -
As for MY opinion: I have seen and lived miracles that the graceful God of mine has done for me and the ones who I love. I don't care what dark_crow thinks about, but what I and the other beleivers think about. Just that I hope Martin's letter could help you believe, because I BELEIVE that my mision is to make people believe in God, and thanks to Him because he has helped me with some ex-atheist friends. I love God, and thatz what I care most in the world. I love God for over money and even over my family. Because God will never leave me, he will always be there for me.
As for the bad experienses I have lived, God knows those were for good, because for christians, everything that happens, is for good. And that's it. That is what my Beleifs are based on
Hopes are great things, my very best wish's to you and yours.
I just believe in the PERSONAL relationship between me and the God I understand, and put nothing between us, not religion, or people, places, or things.
So your logic and reason and common sense--and openmindedness?--won't allow you to read the Bible in its entirety and then look at the whole picture? I see. Anyway, it's more fun to pick out one or two negative-sounding sections and then make a decision about an entire book. I wonder if that works with DeFoe or Hemingway or Steinbeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by desidario
I was raised a Catholic and read the Bible end to end to satisfy my curiosity, yet I currently practice the Wiccan religion because I DON'T believe in organized religions. What I found after becoming a member of about every religion on the planet is that the Christians believe in whatever organized religions tell them is in the Bible, but most I know have never read "The Good Book" cover to cover, so they have no clue themselves what it truly says and follow their leaders like senseless sheep... and the same holds true for the "non-Christian" religions as well, since most, like the members of the Taliban, follow the teachings of someone who has twisted the basis of their beliefs to his or her own interpretation.
I chose the Wiccan life because Wiccan beliefs come down to one simple statement: "If harm ye none, do what ye will". There is no set law about what God or Goddess you choose to worship as long as you don't hurt anyone else while you are doing so. I can choose to live by the Ten Commandments and The Golden Rule and still practice my solitary prayers without someone telling me that I'm doing it wrong - and there are no laws about my female self being less important than my male counterparts. No one has messed with me since I've taken up this religion because I don't try to push my beliefs on anyone else - and you should see the Jehovah's Witnesses zip out of my driveway when I tell them "I'm not interested in your magazine. I'm a Witch!" (I don't explain that "witch" refers to a female Wiccan practitioner... lol)
Ah. And what did you conclude about Christianity when you read it cover to cover?Quote:
Originally Posted by tiggerella
Anyway, I don't follow my pastor as a senseless sheep, I just do the things that I know are right. For example, I don't steal because the pastor said so, I do it because God said so through the bible, And anyway, the bible isn't just One book, its loads of books together. Its true that I haven't read the bible cover to cover, but Ive read most of it, and one of my new year resolutions is to read it at least 1 time (my father reads it like 3 times a year).
I hope no Christian follows his pastor "like a senseless sheep" (even though Jesus is called the Good Shepherd and we are his sheep... hmmm... ). And I hope you don't steal simply because God says so (Law), but because God says to show love (Gospel), and stealing from someone is not showing love to that person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenwolf
I concluded that the Catholic religion, which I was heavily involved in at the time because my parents were Catholics, was a bit false in what they were promoting as "God's Laws". It started as little things - such as being told "we don't question such things" when asking about where Cain went after killing Abel if Adam and Eve were the only ones on the planet... *grin* Of course, the BIG break with the church came after my Dad died of cancer and one of the girls I grew up with made the comment "If you were a really GOOD Catholic, your Dad wouldn't have died!" (Quite frankly, this girl was going out drinking and carousing every Saturday night, then acting all angelic every Sunday morning... )Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don't believe in God. To me its inconceivable!
And to me it is just unbelievable that anyone can not believe in at lease some level of God. There is just no possibility to things just happening into the creation we have now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skell
I was simply responding to the OP, not looking for a debate on the existence of god v creationism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I suppose it is similar to children who can't believe that anyone else other than santa could have left those presents under the tree and drank the glass of milk and eat the cookies left for him. Similarly a religious person can not believe that someone else can not believe in a god.
The difference is I can understand why you believe in God, however to ME it is simply not plausible. To YOU, understandable.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skell
I'm not looking for a debate. Just a friendly exchange of ideas.
So you broke with the Church because a nonpracticing Catholic made a dumb statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by tiggerella
No - I broke with the church because the hypocrisy of this one practicing Catholic was reflected by over half of the congregation. In short, the very people who were always sitting in the pews in front of me, beside me and behind me all treated my family like we had the plague after my Dad died of cancer. (He was a very good man who would have given the shirt off his back to any of these individuals if they had a need, even when we were struggling financially because of all the medical bills, but they saw his cancer as a "punishment" for some imagined evil deed... )Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I tried going to a different churches in different cities and I tried all the different religions over the years - and met the same hypocritical behaviors in all of them. Despite the Ten Commandments and The Golden Rule that all of these people spouted at their church services, very few actually lived by what they were preaching. Although I call myself a Wiccan and pray to the Lord and Lady within my own home, I still live by the Ten Commandments and The Golden Rule.
That is sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiggerella
I understand the feeling. I guess I responded the same or in a similar way when I was young. I became atheist however.Quote:
I tried going to a different churches in different cities and I tried all the different religions over the years - and met the same hypocritical behaviors in all of them. Despite the Ten Commandments and The Golden Rule that all of these people spouted at their church services, very few actually lived by what they were preaching.
God bless you for keeping the Commandments and the Golden Rule.Quote:
Although I call myself a Wiccan and pray to the Lord and Lady within my own home, I still live by the Ten Commandments and The Golden Rule.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hello again, De Maria:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
How does one become an atheist and then STOP being one? I don't think you can do that. It's against the code.
excon
The code? Its more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
The Golden Rule transcends all religions:
Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions
Ethic of reciprocity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What you are asking is why, when there are hundreds of belief systems in the world, should Christianity be deemed "better" or "more important" than any other? That's easy… “The Ransom,” which no other belief system has.
I think I've heard this somewhere before... *evil grin*Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I'll start by saying that any kind of belief system (or lack thereof) is based on faith. There may not always be concrete evidence to support it but that doesn't make it invalid. Not being able to prove that something exists doesn't automatically prove that it doesn't exist. I've never seen God but I still believe in him. Just like I've never seen oxygen but I still believe that it exists. Now, with that said, I also believe that the Holy Bible is the complete, infallible and inspired Word of God. Although it was written by mortal humans, those mortal humans wrote what God inspired them to write. And I also believe that, if we all lived our lives by the Bible as the rule and guide for our faith and practice. Then our lives would be much, much easier. Now I know a lot of people will snicker and sneer at me for saying that and that's OK. But since it is human nature (i.e. sin nature) to follow our own drives and desires and not what someone else wants, even if that someone else is the almighty God himself, we'll just keep on going shooting ourselves in the foot, so to speak. Just as one example, I'll use the issue of extra-marital sex. The bible states that sexual relations belong within the confines of marriage. I'm sure that this is one of the most widespread violations of scripture and I was just as guilty as anyone else, much to my shame. But think about it for a moment ; if people only had sex with their spouses and nobody else, think about all of the emotional damage we'd spare ourselves. If you don't believe that, just check out the Relationships section of this forum. Also, consider that there'd be no cheating and all of the fallout that results, no STD's, AIDS would be practically non-existent instead of an epidemic, very few abused, neglected and unwanted children, family court judges and family lawyers would be starving. Even in my own case ; I have an illegitimate child that I've been paying child support for, to the tune of $140 per week, for the last 10 years and will be continuing to do so for at least the next 8 years. Do the math ; $140 per week, 52 weeks a year, for 18 years ; enough to buy a house with! Enough to send my other 2 daughters, who were born legitimately in wedlock, to college debt-free and their own cars to boot! Now, if I had done like the bible says and kept it in my pants I could have avoided all of the legal hassles and financial fallout (My wife and I eventually had to file bankruptcy due to the expense of paying child support and the accompanying legal fees) that went with this one little "accident", with a woman who was very angry and vindictive no less and not at all rational and cooperative about the situation. Now, again, check out the relationships, parenting, family law and other related sections of this forum. Check out the many threads that consist of a man complaining about how he feels shafted by the system after accidentally impregnating a woman and dealing with all the resulting fallout. What response does he get? You should have kept it in your pants! Well, guess what folks? That's exactly what the bible says! Not worded exactly that way but the same idea! And that's just one little admonition. Now again, I know that the majority of you will scoff at all of this and that's OK. But the point is that God doesn't tell us what he tells us to frustrate or punish us but to protect us. And yes, Christ died for our sins (that's what Christians believe) and therefore we are forgiven if we believe and profess that belief. But being forgiven doesn't preclude us from facing the consequences of our sins. My adultery is forgiven but I still have to deal with the consequences of it. So that's why I believe what I believe.
I agree with you that infidelity is a scourge that should be fixed but as you correctly stated it isn't relegated to the non-christian crowd. I don't follow the bible, have been married for 12 years and have never cheated. Fidelity is a concept based on social living. It's nice that the bible took time to write it down but it can be boiled down to the Golden Rule I mentioned above. Having sensible loving parents that raise you by showing a good example will take you further than reading the bible IMH.Quote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
In answer to the original question: 1. I believe the Bible on an intellectual level because of its internal proofs. 2. I believe in the Bible because of its elevating teachings (as illuminated by Jesus Christ). 4. I believe in the Bible because of what it has done for me personally. 5. I believe in the Christian religion because it works. I have personally witnessed alcoholics set free immediately in answer to prayer, sick people healed of various diseases, independently of medical science, and onery people changed into godly people. That is the short answer of why I am a believer in Jesus Christ.
Send him this way then. Maybe he can rid of this nasty case of the shingles I have. Can you believe that. A 24 year old with shingles. If he fixes me ill believe. But don't tell me I need to believe before I can be fixed. That is ar$e about and not how the world works!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
And he must have skipped by my aunt who was a believer when she was dying of bone cancer in her early 30's. It's a shame he picks and chooses who to heal!
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