Ask Me Help Desk - Saving a Loved One

Saving a Loved One

Suppose a Christian mother is very religious. She firmly believes in heaven and hell and the fate of the eternal soul. She has two children ages 7 and 5 who are very good Christian kids. She has every reason to think that if they were to die tomorrow, God would certainly accept them into heaven.

But as we know, kids grow up and become influenced by the world. If they both live to be 90, there is always the very real chance that one of them will commit a mortal sin at some point in their lives. So here's my question:

Can you provide a reason why this mother shouldn't kill her two kids now and lock in their eternal fate? I mean, the difference between spending eternity in heaven or hell is not a little thing. It's EVERYTHING! If she kills them now, their souls have a 100% chance of going to heaven. If she lets them live, there will always be some chance greater than zero they will go to hell. So why should she take ANY chance when she doesn't have to?

Now before you say it... I realize this mother would be committing a mortal sin herself by killing them. But suppose her love for her two kids is so great that she's willing to sacrifice her soul for theirs?

It seems to me that if you have any loved ones who are currently worthy of heaven, it would be an incredible act of heroic selflessness to kill them now and guarantee their eternal soul. So why don't more Christians do this? Is it because they place their own eternal fate above that of their loved ones?

Once again, I'm not trying to be cute. This is a serious question. If I truly believed that my kids were either going to heaven or hell when they die, I'm sure I love them enough to where I'd sacrifice my own soul and do whatever it takes to make sure they don't suffer for eternity. So I guess it's a real good thing people like me don't believe this stuff, huh?

Yes she would be committing her eternal fate to be in hell for murdering them.
AND she would be 'playing God' in a sense.
Where would we all be if we killed all babies so that they could go to heaven.
Their mothers and fathers could have been killed so they would have never even had a chance to be born.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yes she would be committing her eternal fate to be in hell for murdering them.
AND she would be 'playing God' in a sense.
Where would we all be if we killed all babies so that they could go to heaven.
Their mothers and fathers could have been killed so they would have never even had a chance to be born.

Thanks for your response. But since you did nothing to refute the logic of my premise, can I take it you agree?

Refute the logic?
I don't see where I suggested it was a good idea??

Personally I don't see any logic to it at all.

A Christian woman who kills her children to preserve their souls. The better logic would be to have that woman's tubes tied so she doesn't have children in the first place.

I'm sorry, but this post has some seriously psychotic undertones.

I agree J_9 it reminds me of the woman that drowned her kids in the bayou in downtown Houston,Texas and some others where they said that "God told them" to kill their kids.
No logic! If Moses or Jesus told people to kill their kids then many of our ancestors would never have even been born to give birth to our grandparents and parents.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I'm not trying to be cute. This is a serious question.

For some reason, I doubt that this is true.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

If Moses or Jesus told people to kill their kids then many of our ancestors would never have even been born to give birth to our grandparents and parents.

Well, there is that troublesome story about God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. 'Course, in the end God said "Just kidding!", so maybe it's not the same.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

refute the logic?
I don't see where I suggested it was a good idea?????

But you don't say why it's a bad idea (for the mother). I take it you agree her actions will achieve the results she's after?

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

For some reason, I doubt that this is true.

Well, there is that troublesome story about God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. 'Course, in the end God said "Just kidding!", so maybe it's not the same.

But it is true and I see it as a serious and legitimate question. I want to know what Christian logic can stop the woman that Nohelp4u mentioned? I don't see any. I'm hoping to find it here.

I think it is stupid psychopath logic and what can stop it is some serious mental help as well as her kids taken off her!

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lobrobster disagrees: Zero help to the question asked.

We can agree to disagree. However, this is not only a Christian problem, but a mental health problem as well. Many of these women suffer postpartum depression, or schizophrenia. Both of these disorders have a religious impact on the sufferer.

The Bible says the devil came to steal, kill and destroy. A good parent would trust their child's life to God and teach them the right way just as the Bible teaches Christian parents to do.
Everybody has a free will and to kill somebody so they don't have a chance to choose their free will is 0NLY playing God and not trusting God. Just like with abortion pro life people ask how do you know you didn't 'kill' the next Einstein.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

The Bible says the devil came to steal, kill and destroy. A good parent would trust their child's life to God and teach them the right way just as the Bible teaches Christian parents to do.
Everybody has a free will and to kill somebody so they don't have a chance to choose their free will is 0NLY playing God and not trusting God. Just like with abortion pro life people ask how do you know you didn't 'kill' the next Einstein.

But your speaking nothing to the question I asked.

Does killing a child who is worthy of heaven guarantee his eternal soul, or not? If it does, then I don't see how you can blame a parent for doing it.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I think it is stupid psychopath logic and what can stop it is some serious mental help as well as her kids taken off of her!

I have nothing against you calling something stupid, if you show the hole in the logic. But so far, you haven't come close to doing that. You're simply stating your personal (unfounded) opinions that have nothing to do with the question I asked.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

If it does, then I don't see how you can blame a parent for doing it.

The parent should not have had the child in the first place. The soul would have stayed pure and with God.

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Originally Posted by J_9

We can agree to disagree. However, this is not only a Christian problem, but a mental health problem as well. Many of these women suffer postpartum depression, or schizophrenia. Both of these disorders have a religious impact on the sufferer.

But you are not speaking to the question I asked.. Would such an action guarantee her kid's eternal fate, or not? If it does, why are you assuming it's a mental health issue?

I would jump in front of a bus right now to save my kid. If I'm also willing to risk my eternal soul for their's, what logic do you propose should stop me from doing so? You're providing no argument against it. You're just throwing other issues into the ring like mental health, without any real answer to my question.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

If she lets them live, there will always be some chance greater than zero they will go to hell. So why should she take ANY chance when she doesn't have to?

The Bible has been interpreted all sorts of ways. Some Christian churches say there are mortal sins. Others don't agree. Some Christians say there is a literal hell, others say it is spiritual, some say hell is on earth, and still others aren't sure there is one.

None of us knows the mind of God. The mother in your example is playing God and is like my bipolar neighbor (mother of four children) who wanted to do exactly what you described.

The Bible says God is love. We don't know what decisions He will make about where people "go" after death. We simply have to trust in His love and mercy. And I suspect we will be very surprised when our own turn comes up.

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Originally Posted by J_9

The parent should not have had the child in the first place. The soul would have stayed pure and with God.

When does the birth of a soul take place?

Most of the people that kill because "God told them to" are then evaluted by a shrink as having serious mental issues.
I don't see where you don't follow that if all Christian parents took that route they would be going against the free will God gave us as well as aborting the opportunity for the kids to possibly do something for God and mankind.
Your question is the same as why not abort them before birth so they are saved?
Or what if they kill themselves?
Or what happens if they die (instead of being killed by the mom) same thing happens to the kids the mother kills as happens to the ones in the other three instances other than it isn't their time if the mother kills them.
Bottom line it is NOT the answer and goes against the Bible teachings.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

When does the birth of a soul take place?

God says he knew us before we were even conceived so I believe we had our soul at or before conception.

And wondergirl is saying exactly what I have been trying to get across to you.

Okay, look, I would definitely jump in front of a bus to save my child, but to purposely kill them is ridiculous. Does it save their soul, yeah, I'm sure it does if you slaughter them before they commit any act against the laws of God.

But these women who actually do commit murder of their children in the name of God usually have a psychotic illness that makes them commit this horrendous crime against nature. I have spoken in depth with men and women alike who have done this to their children while in my mental health rotation at the forensics unit at the local State mental health hospital.

Any person of sound mind would not commit murder their children, but rather raise them to live a life in Christ.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

When does the birth of a soul take place?

I can't answer that because I am not God.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

When does the birth of a soul take place?

If someone can answer that, he/she will have solved the abortion/right-to-life question.

Look, Rob, why don't you tell us what you want us to say...

You want us to justify killing innocent children?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Some Christians say there is a literal hell,

I understand that the bible can be interpreted in many different ways, and that's what I'm trying to get at (my motive for this question is not evil like some insist it is).

I just want to know that if someone who's interpretation is that there is a real heaven and hell that we all go to when we die, if that person is wrong to try and ensure a loved one going to heaven. This seems perfectly reasonable to me given such an interpretation. In fact, it would seem unreasonable and downright selfish for a loving parent to do anything else!

Maybe this will help answer whatever it is you are getting at
But it is written from a pro-life anti abortion perspective mostly'

Circle of Prayer - The Sanctity of Life

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I just want to know that if someone who's interpretation is that there is a real heaven and hell that we all go to when we die, if that person is wrong to try and ensure a loved one going to heaven.

If a person kills an innocent child because he/she wants to ensure that child a place is heaven, that person is wrong, and seriously mentally ill if they go through with it.

Yes, it's wrong to kill a child solely on the pretense that the child will go to heaven.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I understand that the bible can be interpreted in many different ways

A poem can be interpreted in many different ways, but that does not mean it's what the author intended.

The Bible can also be interpreted in many different ways, but that does not mean it's what God wants. Many verses are interpreted out of context, i.e. apart from the verses surrounding them that help in their comprehension. The historical and cultural contexts are also important in understanding the Bible.

The NT says women are to be silent in the church. Of course, that verse has opened up all sorts of problems for Christians. Again, context is needed to understand what St. Paul meant--and total understanding still may be missing.

Just because I might believe women are not to utter a sound while in church doesn't mean it's true, just like your example of the mother who kills her kids. The Bible also says, "Thou shalt not kill."

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Originally Posted by J_9

Look, Rob, why don't you tell us what you want us to say......

You want us to justify killing innocent children?

I want you to justify why it shouldn't be done given a specific interpretation of the bible. And not only have you failed to do so, you can't even manage to stay on point. You find it more convenient to muddy the waters by bringing up completely unrelated topics like mental health issues, etc. Here's why this subject is so important...

You cannot fault somebody else for following through on their unsubstantiated interpretations, just because they don't agree with your own unsubstantiated interpretations (or because you're just not as willing to follow through on them as they are).

So I want to find out if: Is a mother who kills her child, or a man who flies a plane into a building, or another who chops off a person's head for apostacy, are they really acting in a more noble manner than someone who is liberal in their beliefs? At least they (the fundamentalists), are FIRM enough in their beliefs and convictions that they are willing to see them through to the ultimate conclusion. In a way, I respect that more than I do someone who says they belief such and such, yet doesn't live as if they do.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The Bible can also be interpreted in many different ways, but that does not mean it's what God wants.

Thanks wondergirl, and I know you're trying to be helpful and answer my question. I'm not for a minute saying that God would want a mother to kill her child. Not at all. I'm merely asking if she were to do so, would that guarantee this child's eternal fate according to some interpretations of the bible? And if so, what logical reason can we provide to stop her from doint so?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

At least they (the fundamentalists), are FIRM enough in their beliefs and convictions that they are willing to see them through to the ultimate conclusion.

And firmness of belief is a GOOD thing, no matter what the belief?

AS wondergirl said anybody can interpret the Bible anyway they want but ONLY God has absolute truth and some come close to having it right BUT killing your kids so they automatically go to heaven is far from the Bible taken as a whole teaching.
You might try asking on the Jewish Board. I believe ETWolverine might be able to give you a good answer to the sanctity to life question better. Of course it would be better to give the question from a Jewish mother instead if you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobrobster

Thanks wondergirl, and I know you're trying to be helpful and answer my question. I'm not for a minute saying that God would want a mother to kill her child. Not at all. I'm merely asking if she were to do so, would that guarantee this child's eternal fate according to some interpretations of the bible? And if so, what logical reason can we provide to stop her from doint so?

You're welcome.

If the interpretation is incorrect, her "efforts" would be worthless. The Bible has to be interpreted as a whole. It also says, as I mentioned in an earlier post, don't kill.

I suspect logic would not be what she is looking for, so any logical reason would be outside of her experience and reasoning. Logic would not stop her.

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Originally Posted by J_9

If a person kills an innocent child because he/she wants to ensure that child a place is heaven, that person is wrong, and seriously mentally ill if they go through with it.

Yes, it's wrong to kill a child solely on the pretense that the child will go to heaven.

This one is MY fault. Sorry. I KNOW that person is wrong. My question is, what should stop them if it will save their loved one's soul?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Of course it would be better to give the question from a Jewish mother instead if you do.

You are just as cute as ever! ET would love it!

I think we have explained it well but then they say Mozart, or was it Beethovan,:D :D couldn't TEACH music !:D

You keep using the word logic. If religion is about believing in an unseen anything, than that really isn't logical to begin with is it? So we are dealing with a woman's personal belief. There's no real logic in that. Heaven and hell aren't tangible.

Plus this woman only assumes that her children are good little kiddies. But how does she know that little Johnny doesn't play doctor with his sister? The woman is in fault because she claims to know the religious minds of her own children.

If all of this was tangible, and not based off a subjective belief. She might have a case. But then again... if she claims to be a good Christian woman, she would know that humans have free will. And she is taking that away from her children by killing them. She isn't just committing a religious sin. She is breaking a law of man.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And firmness of belief is a GOOD thing, no matter what the belief?

I didn't say it was a good thing... I said it was noble.

Say what you want about those hijackers on 9/11. What they did was insanely hideously and wrong. But they certainly were not cowards! They were acting in firm conviction of their beliefs. And I see this mother in the same way... If one REALLY believes their child will face an eternal heaven and hell. How can it be anything but a noble act to sacrifice her soul for that of her children?

Yes, you did. What's the difference between "good" and "noble"?

Originally Posted by lobrobster
At least they (the fundamentalists), are FIRM enough in their beliefs and convictions that they are willing to see them through to the ultimate conclusion.

You aren't reading the very reasonable responses you are being given. Or aren't thinking about them.

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Originally Posted by mafiaangel180

Plus this woman only assumes that her children are good little kiddies. But how does she know that little Johnny doesn't play doctor with his sister? The woman is in fault because she claims to know the religious minds of her own children.

So far, I find this to be the first legitimate attempt to answer my question. THANK YOU!

Ok... So she can never be sure about her children's chances of going to heaven. YES! That would be a "legitimate" reason not to carry through.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, you did. What's the difference between "good" and "noble"?

Originally Posted by lobrobster
At least they (the fundamentalists), are FIRM enough in their beliefs and convictions that they are willing to see them through to the ultimate conclusion.

You aren't reading the very reasonable responses you are being given. Or aren't thinking about them.

LOL! You quoted me to prove I used the word "good", but didn't quote the part where I actually used the word, "good".? I suppose the two words share some meanings. I meant noble in the "distinguished" sense. I would never say killing a child, or flying planes into building was "good".

So, killing a child is noble.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So, killing a child is noble.

I think sacrificing your soul to save someone's else's is a noble act. Yes.

It's my understanding that according to Christian beliefs, this life is but a pit stop on the road to eternal glory. If one truly believe this, why would they care about taking a life? (in fact, you might want to notice that this is exactly how people are acting in other parts of the world right now).

Now I don't believe this!. But I'm trying to find out why those that do, have such a problem with such an act. Even if you've prevented a life from reaching the ripe old age of 90, that is completely insignificant when compared to eternity.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I think sacrificing your soul to save someone's else's is a noble act. Yes.

No. You didn't answer my question. Killing a child is a noble act?

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But I'm trying to find out why those that do, have such a problem with such an act.

Um, we've told you what we think and believe. Is this question up to five pages yet?

Apparently you want an answer that no one has lucked onto yet.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

So far, I find this to be the first legitimate attempt to answer my question. THANK YOU!

Ok... So she can never be sure about her children's chances of going to heaven. YES! That would be a "legitimate" reason not to carry through.

Well, OK then, there you go. Question answered. Phew! I sure am glad that's over.