Hello:

I'm an atheist. However, I've never found the need to bond with other atheists. Indeed, in my view, an organization for atheists is an anathema to atheism. In fact, I don't believe there IS an atheist organization. Simply put, they don't exist.

Besides that, a very good reason of why most atheists would never dream of joining an atheistic organization is because most atheistic organizations are not atheistic at all, they're shills for ideological commitments other-than-atheism.

And when I say other-than-atheism, I of course mean self-described leftist organizations. Humanism, vegetarianism, identity politics, and all sorts of patent nonsense go under the umbrella of atheism, as any jaunt around the net or an appearance at your local atheist organization will show you.

These are organizations designed to get you to DO something. Don't buy what they're selling. They're NOT atheists. True atheists don't want YOU to DO anything. What they really want is to be left alone.

No?

excon

I see where you are coming from.
I don't feel the need to belong to any group.. I like helping people out when the chance arises or animals, the environment... but I just don't want to belong. I sometimes write letters for a cause and give a few bucks to things I believe in.

No church, no groups. Just leave me the heck alone... I'm happy. Don't except crap out of me. I'll give and march if I want to, if I can. Just because it's a law don't make it right, I may even try to slip around the laws I don't believe in... but that's me. I'm just out in the universe wandering around I don't call myself anything.

I think it is necessary to make a distinction between the two moralities- the morality of religion and the morality of civic- human rights:
Universal rights to which every person is entitled because they are justified by a moral standard that stands above the laws of any individual nation; best enunciated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by UN General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948.

On the other hand, I don't believe Atheism is justified in defending the defamation of religion.

When the Morality of Religion conflicts with the Morality of Universal Human Rights I think there should be organized opposition, as there is in many countries today.

Hello DC:

Moral is moral and can't be parsed. It's like pregnant. You either are, or you aren't.

IF religion under the guise of morality, is being immoral, then it's immoral and I don't care what THEY call it. If that's the case, then that immorality must be challenged.

I do it one on one here, but the problem is that real atheists don't band together to challenge anybody. Other people with other agendas do, and call it atheism.

In fact, it shouldn't even be called atheism, because the "isim" part connotes a movement of some kind. The point of my post is to report that there IS no movement.

excon

No man is an island . Humans natuarally flock if nothing more than to experience fellowship and sense a of belonging .

Therein lies the church of atheism . Jesus said "Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am ";thus establishing a very broad definition of what a church is . The same could be said I surmise by a gathering of free thinkers .

Hello again, tom:

Well, I do get all warm a fuzzy when jillian says something brilliant about atheists.

excon

My philosophy teacher of 20 years back told me that atheists must believe there is a god so that they have something NOT to believe in. That statement is about the only thing I remember from that class. It gave me a headache then, and still does. My prof was an ordained Lutheran minister, not that he was biased or anything - right.

I want to believe that there are other beings in the universe, hopefully superior or more advanced simply because it is a little depressing to think we're the best of the bunch.

I was forced to take religion courses by the university I attended. It only reinforced that religion is not for me.

Could the reason there is no organized group of atheists be because since we are free thinkers, no two people think the same way enough to form a group?

Yeah, there is always someone wanting to tell the world the way it 'should be,' and not recognizing the way it is. The facts are that there are many Atheist and secular organizations and just because you don't want to belong is your business, but that don't change that fact anymore than because you believe there is only one moral entity that changes the fact there is more than one.

This "misplaced idealism" of the "ideal state" and "ideal way of life" is individualistic, and subjective.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

Well, I do get all warm a fuzzy when jillian says something brilliant about atheists.

excon

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Aw, shucks, I'm blushing! :o

I see your point, though. It seems the atheist organizations have other agendas in mind, but I think that's only natural when you get a band of people together.

Does this make them bad? I don't think so, at least no more "bad" than any other activist group.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Jesus said "Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am "

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Well that's mighty convenient...

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello DC:
I do it one on one here, but the problem is that real atheists don't band together to challenge anybody.
excon

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I respectfully disagree. I think the atheists on this web site do a fine job of banding together and challenging people. I see it all the time on the Christian threads. But, when you challenge someone else's belief system or knowledge (or lack thereof, whatever the case may be), it upsets them. Why purposely upset people? You may think they are wrong, and they may be. So what? Let them be wrong. Those religious threads or opinion threads really don't have any right or wrong answers if you are sticking to the topic and don't go off on tangents. Why is it so important for people to insist they are right all the time? That is where the true problems lie. Now, if you just love to debate and argue, and you feel the overwhelming desire to proclaim loudly that you are right and they are wrong, well then, just be prepared for the anger that ensues. Personally, I would rather leave the arguing between all the different Christian sects. Let them annoy the crapola out of each other. It will eventually lead some of them to question their faith and fall off those self-righteous soapboxes they have placed themselves upon. :D

I agree with your statements Excon. I don't see the need for atheists to join an atheism organisation. Seems to me that it ceases being atheism in some ways. I am an atheist and I will support my view all day long but I won't shout it from the roof tops or join an organisation to shout for me. Sort of like what Ruby said, ill leave that to the church organisations.

Atheists who have a problem with the religion are as bad as religious types having a problem with me being an atheist as far as I'm concerned. To each there own, even if it is wrong :)

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

I respectfully disagree. I think the atheists on this web site do a fine job of banding together and challenging people. I see it all the time on the Christian threads. But, when you challenge someone else's belief system or knowledge (or lack thereof, whatever the case may be), it upsets them. Why purposely upset people? You may think they are wrong, and they may be. So what? Let them be wrong. Those religious threads or opinion threads really don't have any right or wrong answers if you are sticking to the topic and don't go off on tangents. Why is it so important for people to insist they are right all the time? That is where the true problems lie. Now, if you just love to debate and argue, and you feel the overwhelming desire to proclaim loudly that you are right and they are wrong, well then, just be prepared for the anger that ensues. Personally, I would rather leave the arguing between all the different Christian sects. Let them annoy the crapola out of each other. It will eventually lead some of them to question their faith and fall off those self-righteous soapboxes they have placed themselves upon. :D

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Birds of a feather... :)

You have a point, especially about the threads on this site. I know I'm guilty of taking things too far at times, and certainly there are others still here and some who have moved on who seemed to declare a "war" of sorts.

For me, it's just too difficult to let the intolerance go sometimes. It's my hope, in most cases, to present the opposing viewpoint so that maybe someone, MAYBE, will see things from another perspective. The long gone "Atheists Do Not Believe - How?" thread is a good example. Sometimes it gets taken too far, and when it does, it ruins the conversation. Personally, I try to avoid the threads specifically about faith (current ones such as "Mark 7:31-36", the "Abortion Ban in the Bible" thread and "For Believers Only") because my goal is not to insult others. And I've got to say, I haven't seen a single self-righteous individual on EITHER side get down off their soapbox... in fact, I usually see them just leave the site when they don't like the responses they are getting!

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

For me, it's just too difficult to let the intolerance go sometimes. It's my hope, in most cases, to present the opposing viewpoint so that maybe someone, MAYBE, will see things from another perspective. The long gone "Atheists Do Not Believe - How?" thread is a good example. Sometimes it gets taken too far, and when it does, it ruins the conversation. Personally, I try to avoid the threads specifically about faith (current ones such as "Mark 7:31-36", the "Abortion Ban in the Bible" thread and "For Believers Only") because my goal is not to insult others. And I've gotta say, I haven't seen a single self-righteous individual on EITHER side get down off their soapbox.... in fact, I usually see them just leave the site when they don't like the responses they are getting!

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There are threads created under Christianity which, IMO, don't really belong there. "Prayer in school" and that "Happy Holidays" threads. But, they were started by Christians and even though it appears all opinions are welcome, in actuality, they are not. We are reminded constantly by the Christian responders when they get frustrated and upset, that "this is a Christian thread." That tells me either one of two things. 1. The original intention in posting there was actually not to collect opinions from every camp but, to have their own kind agree with them and make them feel better about whatever propelled them to post in the first place. 2. They view those boards as their area to share a camaraderie with fellow Christians. The "why" of number two is various. It depends on the person and what is happening in their life.

I completely understand the difficulty people have with what they view as an intolerant viewpoint. Remember, the Christians feel the same way you do about your viewpoints. It is human nature to get one's opinions heard or correct something we view as wrong. But, do any of you truly believe that your input will get someone to agree they might be wrong ? The only people you possibly might reach are the teens or young adults who are already questioning their faith. But, those people show up in many other areas of the site and are looking for answers everywhere. As to all the others that show up, the entrenched ones, they are already very acutely aware of your viewpoints. They deal with it all the time in their daily lives, and they have outright rejected those other ideas. So, you are in essence, talking to a wall. You are right, no one will get off their soapboxes. I only threw that in as a joke. The people who get frustrated and angry leave the site. What does that accomplish? It might make some of the Atheists happy because then they don't have to deal with these people anymore. But, the purpose of this site is not to run people "out of town." The owners want people to come back and use it. I understand the fear that the very religious will overrun the boards. That has happened on other sites. But, we have a staff of Admin & Moderators who won't allow that to happen. AND, when the very religious wander into other areas, we have enough members who will set them straight.

All I am saying here (to everyone) is when it comes to the religious threads, when an opinion is asked for, state it. Explain why you feel the way you do. If someone comes back, counter it if you wish. But, don't make snide comments. Don't purposely anger people. That only serves (on both sides) to show that you have allowed someone to get under your skin, anger you, and you don't have anything better to come back with. Attempt to box them in with calm and reasoned logic. If that doesn't work, just leave the thread. You have already stated your opinion and your point. It ain't getting through. So, why keep banging your head against the wall? If you feel that strongly about a topic and can't just let it go, then create another thread in member discussions or another appropriate area of the site if you want to vent, argue, or go off on a tangent from the OP. In doing this, you have at least taken yourself out of what they view as their "safety zone".

I thought the democratic party was a bonding area for most

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I thought the democratic party was a bonding area for most

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Atheism does not have much to do with politics or, more to the point, is separate from politics. Once again, as mentioned several times in this thread, there is no gathering or bonding area, it's just a way of life.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I thought the democratic party was a bonding area for most

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Uhhh, I know many more democrats who are Christian or Jewish, than atheistic ones. Conversely, I know atheists who are Republicans.;)

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Atheism does not have much to do with politics or, more to the point, is separate from politics. Once again, as mentioned several times in this thread, there is no gathering or bonding area, it's just a way of life.

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I don’t know about Canada but it is a way of life that is not accepted by Christians in America.

A military watchdog organization filed a lawsuit in federal court Tuesday against the Pentagon, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and a US Army major, on behalf of an Army soldier stationed in Iraq. The suit charges the Pentagon with widespread constitutional violations by allegedly trying to force the soldier to embrace evangelical Christianity and then retaliating against him when he refused.

"This landmark federal litigation is just the first of a galaxy of new lawsuits that will be expeditiously filed against the Pentagon in a concentrated effort to preserve the precious religious liberties guaranteed by our beautiful United States Constitution," Weinstein said Monday. "Today, we are boldly stabbing back against an unconstitutional heart of darkness, a contagion of fundamentalist religious supremacy and triumphalism noxiously dominating the command and control of the technologically most lethal organization ever created by humankind: our honorable and noble United States armed forces."


Pentagon Sued Over Mandatory Christianity

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

I don’t know about Canada but it is a way of life that is not accepted by Christians in America.

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I see that. That's too bad for them and their intolerance.

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

Uhhh, I know many more democrats who are Christian or Jewish, than atheistic ones. Conversely, I know atheists who are Republicans.;)

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Yeah, I’m a Republican in spite of the fact that I am embarrassed by the Christian right.:)

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

There are threads created under Christianity which, IMO, don't really belong there. "Prayer in school" and that "Happy Holidays" threads. But, they were started by Christians and even though it appears all opinions are welcome, in actuality, they are not. We are reminded constantly by the Christian responders when they get frustrated and upset, that "this is a Christian thread." That tells me either one of two things. 1. The original intention in posting there was actually not to collect opinions from every camp but, to have their own kind agree with them and make them feel better about whatever propelled them to post in the first place. 2. They view those boards as their area to share a camaraderie with fellow Christians. The "why" of number two is various. It depends on the person and what is happening in their life.

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I agree that some of the threads would be better served in "Member Discussions" or even "Politics", and often the OP is looking for people to confirm his/her way of thinking. But, I disagree that participating in these conversations has never gotten through to some. I'm not saying it will change their minds, but there have been threads where people actually LEARN something about the opposing viewpoint, and might be more willing to tolerate it. And of course their opinion is as firm as my own, but that's part of what leads a debate. I've learned a great deal about Christians (and Jews, and Muslims) from this site; doesn't mean I agree with them, but I've learned something. My hope is others are learning as well.

As far as people leaving the site, I actually don't like to see that happen, unless they've been abusive (in which case they might get banned). There was a woman on here a while ago, and for the life of me I can't remember her name, but she was very sweet, and very open to hearing other people's opinions. Haven't seen her in MONTHS and that's a shame. The conversations she participated in weren't about trying to change her beliefs, but seeing what other people thought, and teaching them about her own belief. firmbeliever is another of those - I haven't seen her in a while, and that's a shame.

Hello again:

If I didn't think I could change peoples minds, I'd leave.

excon

Yes, Jillian there are some very nice and open minded people from all backgrounds and walks of life. I did not say that "participating in these conversations has never gotten through to some." However, I don't believe the people that we see so deeply entrenched in their beliefs, the ones who become openly upset/annoyed on the boards here, are willing, or open, to listening/learning other viewpoints. Maybe you and I are thinking of different members.

The lack of a true chruch of athiestism is one of the reasons the other religions can take hold so easly. People are always stronger with a group opinion than as a lone voice in the crowd. Think how many more people might be athiests if we had a church. If we went door to door on Sunday morining talking about how good it is not to believe, of course we can't promise eternal life in heaven but we can at least be certain that we deliver on the promises we make. Maybe with the forums of the internet are our church, by pointing out the bad logic and intolerances of the other religions we gain members. We may not convice the ones that post but for every one person that posts probably ten read what is written.

Well there is always the FSM.

http://doogs.typepad.com/blog/images/fsm.jpg

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:
If I didn't think I could change peoples minds, I'd leave.
excon

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I know you think you can change peoples minds excon. You have to look at your complete audience. There are times I have noticed that some people think they can completely change the minds of people who are entrenched in "whatever". Ain't going to happen. All that happens is everyone's frustration levels increase and then snide, condescending, or demeanings comments are bandied about. Why do that? Why allow someone on a web site to be in control of your emotions?

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

Yes, Jillian there are some very nice and open minded people from all backgrounds and walks of life. I did not say that "participating in these conversations has never gotten through to some." However, I don't believe the people that we see so deeply entrenched in their beliefs, the ones who become openly upset/annoyed on the boards here, are willing, or open, to listening/learning other viewpoints. Maybe you and I are thinking of different members.

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Certainly there are those who aren't going to change their minds at all. I know I get wrapped up in debate with some of them, but those aren't the ones I enjoy speaking to. Actually, I've taken to putting some of them on my "ignore" list because I figure there's no point in conversing with someone who is unwavering in every opinion. I fully accept I might be on a few "ignore" lists too!

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Why allow someone on a web site to be in control of your emotions?

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Ugh. You have NO IDEA how irritated I get when I realize some schmuck on the intertubes said something that makes me angry and think about it after logging off the site! That realization is usually enough to make me get over it!

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

Why allow someone on a web site to be in control of your emotions?

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Hello again, Ruby:

I have no investment in them. In fact, I believe I respond logically - not emotionally. And I'm quite happy to let them live in ignorance if they don't get it.

However, if I've changed ONE mind in the 10 years I've been doing this, then it's been worth it.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

In fact, I believe I respond logically - not emotionally.
excon

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Really? I guess I will have to go back and reread many of your posts. Although they are logical, they have not struck me as devoid of emotional response.;)

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well there is always the FSM.

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NK, please keep the proselytizing out of this thread. :D hehe.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Ugh. You have NO IDEA how irritated I get when I realize some schmuck on the intertubes said something that makes me angry and think about it after logging off the site! That realization is usually enough to make me get over it!

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It took me a good few months to realize that I was allowing myself to have that same knee jerk reaction. And for the most part, I have reorganized my train of thought to not allow them to bait me.

Most of us on this thread have all been the victims of a "certain" troll lately. He is very calm and likes to see you all get bent out of shape. Don't let him do it to you.;)

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NK, please keep the proselytizing out of this thread. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../ima...es/biggrin.gif hehe.

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Roger that. I was going to show up at your door with pamphlets and stuff but no longer.

Oh you are most welcome to do that. As long as you don't mind my pitbull greeting you. Is it okay to invite you in for a good homemade spaghetti & meatball dish?

Partaking of the pasta is considered good form.. and tasty!

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Originally Posted by michealb

The lack of a true chruch of athiestism is one of the reasons the other religions can take hold so easly. People are always stronger with a group opinion than as a lone voice in the crowd. Think how many more people might be athiests if we had a church. If we went door to door on Sunday morining talking about how good it is not to believe, of course we can't promise eternal life in heaven but we can at least be certain that we deliver on the promises we make. Maybe with the forums of the internet are our church, by pointing out the bad logic and intolerances of the other religions we gain members. We may not convice the ones that post but for every one person that posts probably ten read what is written.

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There is much wisdom in what you have written here michealb.

I think if the atheists on this web site can manage to not allow the more fervently religious to upset them with their posts, you might get more people who are on the outside looking in, to read through a thread and see who is more logical and rational. That would get through loud and clear to those more open and willing to learn and listen.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Partaking of the pasta is considered good form..and tasty!

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Good to know. My pitbull awaits you.

Not a dog person, sorry.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

As far as people leaving the site, I actually don't like to see that happen, unless they've been abusive (in which case they might get banned). There was a woman on here a while ago, and for the life of me I can't remember her name, but she was very sweet, and very open to hearing other people's opinions. Haven't seen her in MONTHS and that's a shame. The conversations she participated in weren't about trying to change her beliefs, but seeing what other people thought, and teaching them about her own belief. firmbeliever is another of those - I haven't seen her in a while, and that's a shame.

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Hey Jill,
Thanks for your compliments about my Atheist question thread... :p
I am still around,just not as much as I like to be... :rolleyes: .


About what excon said,maybe there are no organisations of atheists that I personally know of...
But I do know atheists who try to convince people that their way of thinking is right,by finding materials,reading or viewing and providing it to their friends or associates.
I think such behaviour is what atheists accuse religion followers of doing,but some atheists follow the same behaiour knowingly or unknowingly.

I guess it is human nature to have this need to help others see our own views as we think it is the right one. I know for a fact that I like to help others understand what I believe in as I believe it is the truth.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

Hey Jill,
Thanks for your compliments about my Atheist question thread... :p
I am still around,just not as much as I like to be... :rolleyes: .

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Good to see you again! :)

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I guess it is human nature to have this need to help others see our own views as we think it is the right one. I know for a fact that I like to help others understand what I believe in as I believe it is the truth.

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I think you've hit the nail on the head. Everyone want to be right - everyone thinks if others followed their way of thinking, the world would be a better place (forgive the broad generalization, but I think you get what I mean). It's also a problem when topics which people are so passionate about come up; abortion for one - a pro-choicer and pro-lifer can argue all day long and never get anywhere, but what both usually want is to be HEARD, for their side to be ACKNOWLEDGED. If you feel you have been heard, it's easier to agree to disagree and move on.

Hi excon,

I didn't get a chance to read the thread, but I offer the following. There are a couple of good secular humanist organizations and organizations for skeptics. I am a supporter of one organization headed by Paul Kurtz, a very well respected man.

Atheists think for themselves, they are the more intelligent and educated members of American society... and as a result, they have different opinions on just about every subject! It would be difficult to have one large atheist organization because just about all they support is that... they are not believers in the supernatural.

If you want some names of secular organizations, contact me privately. It really feels good to be part of such positive organizations with such positive agendas for humanity.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Ruby:

I have no investment in them. In fact, I believe I respond logically - not emotionally. And I'm quite happy to let them live in ignorance if they don't get it.

However, if I've changed ONE mind in the 10 years I've been doing this, then it's been worth it.

excon

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Because of you, I have changed my mind on marijuana.

You stated one time that it has not caused a death.

I could not believe that, but

I searched the internet, the cdc, morbidity and mortality reports, pub med, could not find one article with marijuana as the only cause of death.



Just to let you know ;)