Then you're saying that Jesus died on this world for any life on other worlds--or even saying there is no viable life on any other planets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
|
Then you're saying that Jesus died on this world for any life on other worlds--or even saying there is no viable life on any other planets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Happy Easter everybody! I've got to shut myself down so I can be bright and spiffy for Mass in the morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
JoeT
Happy Easter, Joe!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Happy Easter to you too Joe and everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I've got to be up bright and early so the kids can search for their baskets. Sorry, no mass for me, but the day is special. :)
So far all you have given is speculation of the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1) That there is life elsewhere (intelligent life)
2) That sin did not affect all of creation (even though scripture says that it did)
3) That if there is intelligent life on another world, that the coming of the God who created the whole universe to die on the cross had no impact other than on this grain of dust in this galaxy, making the effect of God's word very limited.
And what have you validated from scripture? So far none of it.
Give a whole lot of assumption and speculation piled up several layers with absolutely no solid validation, vs God's word, I believe God.
Happy Easter, Alty!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Ok, maybe next Easter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Or the Easter after that. Stranger things have happened, you never know. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
We'll pray for 'stranger things'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Muslims have something that offers the clearest proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times.
Surprisingly enough, the Quran itself provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. Allah tells us in the Quran:
Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?
[Noble Quran 4:82]
Another amazing challenge from Allah's Book:
If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.
[Noble Quran 2:23]
And Allah challenges us with:
Bring ten chapters like it.[Noble Quran 11:13]
And finally:
Bring one chapter like it.[Noble Quran 10:38]
No one has been able to produce a book like it, nor ten chapters like it, nor even one chapter like it. It was memorized by thousands of people during the lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and then this memorization was passed down from teacher to student for generation after generation, from mouth to ear and from one nation to another. Today every single Muslim has memorized some part of the Quran in the original Arabic language that it was revealed in over 1,400 years ago, even though most of them are not Arabs. There are over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims living on the earth today who have totally memorized the entire Quran, word for word, and can recite the entire Quran, in Arabic just as Muhammad (peace be upon him) did 14 centuries ago.
MORE?
visit
Allah's Quran - Quran - A Guidance Without Doubt
God Allah - Does It Mean God?
Since the topic here is not the Koran, but you wish to discuss it, let's look at Aal-e-Imran 3:3
He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, confirming what was said before ti, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, as guidance to the people, and He sent down Salvation.
Now here the Koran endorses and points you to the Gospel and to the Salvation which was sent. What is that Gospel, do you know?
Now we will be arguing the superiority of different books. OK.
Mohommad wrote his book. One author. All eggs in one basket, so to speak. In spite of that there are at least 3 different sects of Islam, some of whom hate the others.
The Bible claims to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, is penned by many authors, yet without contradictiions. (I have challenged Atheists to prove any, but they have been loathe to do so.)
There are literally hundreds of prophecies in the Bible that have already been fulfilled, thus proving its divine authorship.
The point of the OP was whether the Bible alone is sufficient or whether Tradition is needed.
You cannot build a house without some standard of measurement, how much less a church? In the New Testament, the four Evangelists, plus Paul, Peter, James and Jude recorded everything necessary for our perfection, and did it when the events were very recent. What came later is suspect because the witnesses could not be questioned.
I have a question for the Muslims.
Mohammed said that Jesus is a prophet of God.
Mohammed said that Allah has no Son.
Jesus said that He is the Son of God.
So who is wrong? Jesus or Mohammed?
If Jesus lied, then He can hardly be called a prophet of God.
What do you say?
So what do you understand from these verses
He it is Who has sent down this Book to you (O Messenger) in Absolute Truth, confirming the authentic in what He has revealed before. He is the One Who revealed the Torah and the Gospel. (Quran 3:3)
He has bestowed Guidance upon mankind before, and now He has sent the Final Criterion between right and wrong. Those who reject the revelations of God, theirs will be a strict retribution. God Almighty’s Law of Cause and Effect carries all things and actions to their logical outcome. (Quran 3:4)
Quran is speaking about. The Torah & the Gospel, which was given to Moses & Jesus peace be upon them, Not the today's corrupted bible.
Read the next verse. (Now He has sent the Final Criterion betweent right & wrong).
Now you have to follow the Final Book, i.e. The Holy Quran.
All the messengers that came before Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him) -they were only sent for their people, and their message was only meant for a particular time. The messengers that came were sent for their own people, and their message was meant for a particular time.
In fact, Qur’an says in Surah Fatir, Ch. 35, Verse 24 ‘There is not a nation or a tribe…there has never been a nation or a people, to whom a Warner has not been sent’. The Qur’an says in Surah Raad, Ch.13, Verse 7... ‘And to every nation and to every people have we sent a guide’. That means, there were messengers and guides, send to all the nations of the world.
By name, only 25 Prophets of Almighty God are mentioned in the Holy Qur’an.
For example Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, David, Solomon, Jesus, Muhammed (Peace be upon him). But our beloved Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him), is mentioned in the Hadith, has said that… ' There were more than 1,24,000 Messengers sent on the face of the earth.'
The Holy Qur’an says in Surah Ahzab, Ch. 33, Verse 40 ‘Muhammed is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah (SWT). He is the messenger of Almighty God, and the seal of the Prophets - and Allah is all knowing and full of knowledge’.
In Surah Ambiya, Ch. 21,Verse 107 ‘That We have sent thee… that is, Prophet Muhammed, as a mercy to all the creatures’ -As a mercy to all the world, as a mercy to the whole of humanity. The Holy Qur’an says in Surah Saba, Ch. 34, Verse 28... ‘That We have sent thee…that is, Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him), as a universal Messenger giving them glad tidings, and warning them against sin.
The gospel was not given TO Jesus. The gospels were penned after Jesus's death and resurrection. That is one error in the Koran. Jesus and the gospel is the Good news (Gospel).Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful1
As for your claims of "corruption", we have manuscripts which go back well before the Koran was written, so we know what Mohammed would have known as the Bible at that time (which by the way, is identical to what we have today), so we can prove with absolute certainty that there have been no changes to the content.
BTW, when 3:3 says that salvation was sent, I trust that you know that Yeshua (in Greek - Jesus) means "Salvation".
The "criterion" you speak of is none other than Jesus the Christ.
Jesus was more than just a prophet, and He was sent not only to the Jews.
Matt 4:14-16
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
(KJV)
And these words, prophecy concerning Messiah (Jesus)
Ps 2:8
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(KJV)
Tom:
How do you know that it isn't the Koran that is the 'Standard of Truth'?
JoeT
For several reasons, not the least of which that it contradicts God's word, and it does not have the same validation as the Bible has with respect to prophetic accuracy and other relevant criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And who validates Scripture?
God.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, 1 and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go ye rather unto The Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel.
Matthew 10:5-6
The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]
Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:
"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’
And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]
Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).
Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth – a Man Approved of God
The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." [The Bible, Acts 2:22]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Read what the former Christian Preacher Says about Bible
Islam Cracks The Code
Bible Scholars say, "Its Changed"
What Does the Real "Word of God" Say?
Islam Cracks The Code - Da Vinci
You know, I don't care what a man says. I know the truth. I know what God has said, I also know what the Koran says (yes, I have read it through a few times)Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful1
I have also studied how the Bible has been validated, I even have a copy of the translated Dead Sea scrolls in front of me. I have also seen the evidence of how the Koran has changed over time.
I have also seen the evidence of how the Koran has changed over time.[/QUOTE]
Just by saying you can't prove that Quran has changed.
Sir William Muir (Orientalist) noted, "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained (fourteen) centuries with so pure a text." The Quran was written down during the lifetime and under the supervision of the Prophet, who himself was illiterate, and it was canonized shortly after his death by a rigorous method which scrutinized both written and oral traditions. Thus its authenticity is unblemished, and is its preservation is seen as the fulfillment of God's promise:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it from corruption."[Noble Quran 15:9]
More?
Visit
What others say about Quran
Allah's Quran - What Others Say
The Scriptures changes lives forever. The apostle Paul put it best :
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12. KJV
It IS indeed the standard and the ONLY authority we really have.
Jesus said (paraphrased) Heaven and Earth will pass away but my WORD will NOT pass away. It is THAT important.
It's the only authority 'Scriputre only' folks have. There are some of us who have the Kingdom of God and the Vicar of Chirst as an objective authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
JoeT
JoeT,
HUH? Call me blonde but... everything the Lord wanted us to know is in His word. The Kingdom of God or Kingdom living is available to any Christian who wants to die to himself and live for Christ. Give me the Holy Spirit any day over the "Vicar of Christ". Why settle for anything less that God himself. Last time I checked MAN has never had an original thought AND had to be saved by the blood of Christ just like me... something to ponder. I'm not suggesting I can't LEARN or be taught interesting truths from the word but any info outside of the word... is NOT the word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Classy T,
You have a good point there... to a certain extent!
It is true that NOT all Vicars of Christ have always lived and behaved by the Lord’s Word.
This is because irrespective of their having being appointed Vicars of Christ they are also just plain human beings, and therefore subject to the same failures as you and I.
Still, let me just remind you that the Apostles were also men full of defects as proven by St. Peter reneging three times his Master and St. Thomas disbelieving He had resurrected...
And when you say “everything the Lord wanted us to know is in His word” I gather you are referring basically to the Gospels, are you? :):)
John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(KJV)
John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
(KJV)
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(KJV)
Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
(KJV)
Are these enough verses to convince you that Jesus is both the Son of God and God the Son?
Lets leave the intellectual realm for a moment. Does Mohammed heal anyone of sickness?
Jesus did and still does.
The challenge of Islam cannot be refuted intellectually or by Tradition. Only the displayed power of God through the authority of Jesus Christ can do it.
The Apostle Paul put it this way.
1 Cor 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(KJV)
That's the point T - How do you know? The Scriptures don't come complete with authentication. How do you know that Scripture is in fact THE Holy Scriptures? Catholics hold that authentication comes from the Church. Being as you don’t recognize the Catholic Church, how do you authenticate them? How do you know you got the right set of books?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
JoeT
Because Paul was giving the awesome responsibility of completing the scriptures. The Bible says not to ADD or to take anything away and JOE777 if I didn't believe THAT then I subject to consider the book of mormon or any other book outside of the bible as God's word.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Gromm,Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
I am referring to ALL 66 books. I do not go outside of that and say it is God's mind or word.
I am judging NO man, including Vicars of Christ. I am just saying they are men and must be saved. As far as the apostles that wrote books in the Bible, I believe their writings were indeed inspired of God and therefore the word of God. I believe we have teachers and pastors today that can TEACH and explain the Word but if they add something in the teachings and proclaim that it came from God and cannot back it up with verses in the 66 books that complete the bible... I do not recognize it as truth. Make sense.
I would also like to say that when we go outside of the Bible, what then do we accept as truth? I mean Proverbs says "
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof is death.
Nobody is adding or subtracting form the Scripture, (well, except maybe Luther and his Bible of 66 books). I want you to FEEL GOOD about Scriptures. I wouldn’t take that away from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
But, where in scriptures was Paul given this awesome responsibility? Where is it he authenticated Scripture? You can have ONLY 66 Books if that makes you FEEL GOOD. The only point I’m making is that without the Catholic Church ‘authenticating’ Scripture, there isn’t a Holy Scripture we can infallibly or otherwise rely on or ‘feel good’ about it.
JoeT
Pssst hey Joe, bad news - the Kingdopm of God is owned by God, not your denomination.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
You can have you "vicar of Christ", though. The rest of us will just go to Christ directly.
Pssst Tom, the gates are always open!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
JoeT,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
It isn't a matter of feeling good. If it WAS... I'd change all kinds of things in the bible to make me"feel good".. lol Please where did that come from anyway??
The Apostle Paul said it in Colossians 1:25
... of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given me towards you to complete the word of God, ( Darby translation)
KJ version: whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God which I given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God.
Now I'm going to give you a little advise, take it or leave it. I have an idea what you are going to do with it... lol here it goes... JOET - you come off as grumpy!! A grumpy catholic is NOT a good thing. If you want to really make me feel good... lighten up dude. You are grouchy.:D
The NT (canon) was put together in book form by men (from the Catholic Church).Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I can't help the lenses that color your perception, rightly or wrongly. I don't mind being grumpy. I love being Catholic – It feels good when right reasoning in the Magisterium of the Church one can get some semblance of God's Truth. But, you're right about one thing, grumpy Catholics are'nt good things. When I see a real grumpy Catholic I'll give them your advice - courtesy of 'T'Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
But, forgive me if for now I take your advice as a badge of honor.
Really? You don't think that God's authentication is enough? You don't think that Jesus using scripture alone to validate doctrine is authentication? You don't think that God meant it when He told us that prophetic fulfillment was validation?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I would not wait for the word of a denomination that came into being 3 centuries after the last book of scripture was written. Did the Jews wait for your denomination to say "Thanks goodness, finally we have authentication?"Quote:
Catholics hold that authentication comes from the Church. Being as you don’t recognize the Catholic Church, how do you authenticate them? How do you know you got the right set of books?
No, authentication comes from God, not man.
You been there? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Really? So you are telling me that the Jews had nothing, that the entire OT is a complete fabrication?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You are telling me that in the NT when a variety of books of the NT were already called as Holy Scripture, that those who penned those books, including the Apostles had no authority, and we all had to wait until a specific denomination came into existence a few centuries later?
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:53 PM. |