Ask Me Help Desk - My christian belief

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You never answered Akoue as to why defining such a broad term as "orientation" is relevant to this discussion about sexuality.

I did - I pointed out that if you and him are having such a problem with the word, mistaking it for things such as nautical orientation and orienteering, then it emphasizes the need to start at basics and make sure that you and Akoue understand what the word orientation means before we apply it to a specific area.

For example, if you did not understand what a "car" was, how could you be expected to know what a "blue car" was.

If you think that it is so easy or so obvious, just answer it and let's move on.

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I reject what you think God's word says about homosexuality.

I quoted scripture, so you therefore reject God's word.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I didn't avoid the question. I told head-on that I think it's a pointless diversion.

You avoided it nonetheless, regardless of you attempt to rationalize your avoidance. Oddly though, you have put more effort into avoiding the question than it would have taken to answer it, and your avoidance to me seems to be a pointless diversion, including the silly attempt to suggest that nautical and sexual mean "generic".

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I even invited you to tell me what on earth the relevance could possibly be

Which I have done twice now - but apparently you ignored that also.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I did - I pointed out that if you and him are having such a problem

It's "you and he" -- subjects of the clause, so nominative case.

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orientation

The discussion is about sexual orientation only.

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I quoted scripture, so you therefore reject God's word.

No, you quoted your version of Scripture.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You avoided it nonetheless, regardless of you attempt to rationalize your avoidance. Oddly though, you have put more effort into avoiding the question than it would have taken to answer it, and your avoidance to me seems to be a pointless diversion, including the silly attempt to suggest that nautical and sexual mean "generic".

Which I have done twice now - but apparently you ignored that also.

Yes, and I took your answer to be a joke, since it was pretty clear that I didn't mistake the relevant sense of "orientation" to be its nautical usage. I have endorsed the definition that Wondergirl has offered several times now, so you can safely assume that I understand what the term "sexual orientation" means. Is that good enough? Can you unstick yourself from this little ploy and move on? If it makes you feel any better, I have already consulted the OED and can see no relevant usage of "orientation" other than that provided by Wondergirl. If you find one or more of its other usages to be relevant, please explain which one and WHY.

Oh, and you should distinguish between reason and rationalization. I gave my reason for refusing to play along with what looks increasingly like a debater's ploy. That was me telling you right then and there why I'm not going along with that. If it isn't a ploy (one which is quite common in debating, as I'm sure you know), then you'll have to explain why on earth we should depart the present topic for another.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

That was me telling you right then and there why I'm not going along with that.

Just curious -- is "telling" a gerund and needs a possessive pronoun, or is this construction acceptable?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It's "you and he" -- subjects of the clause, so nominative case.

Ho hum - if you were so picky about dealing with the issue at hand we would waste less time.

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The discussion is about sexual orientation only.

You do not appear to understand the difference between orientation and orienteering. Do you think that we are discussing "sexual orienteerring"? Maybe you could study some of Akoue's "generic / sexual drugs".

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No, you quoted your version of Scripture.

I did not translate the NKJV.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Just curious -- is "telling" a gerund and needs a possessive pronoun, or is this construction acceptable?

Yeah, that's okay. You could go with "my telling of you", but that sounds archaic and stilted.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Yes, and I took your answer to be a joke, since it was pretty clear that I didn't mistake the relevant sense of "orientation" to be its nautical usage.

Then it was a matter of avoidance.

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I have endorsed the definition that Wondergirl has offered several times now,

She also avoided defining the term orientation.

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So you can safely assume that I understand what the term "sexual orientation" means.

Not if you think "generic" means "sexual" and if Wondergirl thinks orientation is orienteering.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It always comes back to go after the person rather than issue, doesn't it?

You of course avoided my question about orientation also.

I'm so confused now:confused: I don't know what the original question OR answers are.
Could you just print this out in a nutshell?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

ho hum - if you were so picky about dealing with the issue at hand we would waste less time.

Your occasional ad hominems are a bit wearing.

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I did not translate the NKJV.

We long ago discussed the particular words in the verses you continually use as proof passages.

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I quoted scripture, so you therefore reject God's word.

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Assuming one believes scripture IS God's word. That is a HUGE assumption to believe that it is.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

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I quoted scripture, so you therefore reject God's word.

Assuming one believes scripture IS God's word. That is a HUGE assumption to believe that it is.

Good point. Maybe she rejects scripture as being God's word.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Good point. Maybe she rejects scripture as being God's word.

Only improperly translated and interpreted Scripture.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Your occasional ad hominems are a bit wearing.

Perhaps you should look up the term "ad hominem,s" also. If you are being so picky with others, you may want to consider your precision in the use of the English language.

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We long ago discussed the particular words in the verses you continually use as proof passages.

So why are you still at odds with scripture? Is it as someone else suggested that perhaps you do not accept the Bible as God's word?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Only improperly translated and interpreted Scripture.

And are you telling me that the experts are wrong and that your opinion must be accepted?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So why are you still at odds with scripture? Is it as someone else suggested that perhaps you do not accept the Bible as God's word?

That's not what she said. Clean your glasses, please.

Whatever happened to your answers to my questions? I answered yours.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

I'm so confused now:confused: I don't know what the original question OR answers are.
Could you just print this out in a nutshell?

Akoue and Wondergirl appear confused about what an "orientation" is and I am trying to get this clarified so that we do not continue to waste time I have asked both of them to tell me what they believe a generic "orientation" is.

Second, Wondergirl put up a post which appeared to suggest that homosexuality was a mental defect / illness or sin. She made it clear that she does not feel that it is a sin but when asked to clarify what she does think about whether she believs therefore that homosexuality is a mental defect / illness, she won't respond.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Is it as someone else suggested that perhaps you do not accept the Bible as God's word?

Methinks she was referring to you.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not what she said. Clean your glasses, please.

Well you keep beating around the bush - perhaps if we got some clear straightforward answers we would know what you are trying to say. But you keep avoiding the questions.

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Whatever happened to your answers to my questions? I answered yours.

Where did you answer them? I have not seen the answers yet.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Autism is a defect that occurs - we know that.

So you are saying that homosexual may be a brain defect.

If it were, God would not condemn it as sin. Why is it that homosexuals can change? Why is it that scripture records that homosexuals changed when they received Jesus as Saviour?

I never said homosexuality was or may be a brain defect. We don't KNOW what happens. I don't know if autism is a brain defect, chromosome defect like fragile X syndrome or what. We just know that something occurred that was not "Gods plan"

The same goes for homosexuality. The male and female anatomy tells us God's plan was for these two sexes to come together to procreate. BUT, whether something "unplanned" happens in utero with the hormones, or brain activity, or whatever, something DOES happen that causes a person to be drawn to a same sex person. This is not a sin and should not be condemned as one. Especially by people that have not experienced it. It takes a lot of audacity to claim to know what God says about these people. It certainly does NOT square up with the all loving God we profess to believe in.

I don't believe homosexuals change. They may stop the activities, but they are still gay. It is not the action, it's the orientation. What scripture "records" is not necessarily fact.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Methinks she was referring to you.

The context does not appear to suggest so. And I have been abundantly clear that I accept scripture (66 books of the Bible) as the inerrant infallible word of God.

Can you say the same?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Akoue and Wondergirl appear confused about what an "orientation" is and I am trying to get this clarified so that we do not continue to waste time I have asked both of them to tell me what they believe a generic "orientation" is.

You keep saying that we are confused about what "orientation" means, but you haven't yet quarrelled with the definition we've endorsed. Please, explain, what leads you to suppose that we are confused. (Or is this some weird new mantra, in the way that, for a while "logic fallacy" was?)

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Second, Wondergirl put up a post which appeared to suggest that homosexuality was a mental defect / illness or sin. She made it clear that she does not feel that it is a sin but when asked to clarify what she does think about whether she believs therefore that homosexuality is a mental defect / illness, she won't respond.

I think both Wondergirl and I are on record holding that sin and mental disorder are not exhaustive.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The context does not appear to suggest so. And I have been abundantly clear that I accept scripture (66 books of the Bible) as the inerrant infallible word of God.

Can you say the same?

Do you accept its literal meaning as inerrant and infallible?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Akoue and Wondergirl appear confused about what an "orientation" is and I am trying to get this clarified so that we do not continue to waste time I have asked both of them to tell me what they believe a generic "orientation" is.

It is not necessary to define orientation as it is not part of this discussion.

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Second, Wondergirl put up a post which appeared to suggest that homosexuality was a mental defect / illness or sin.

No, she didn't.

"Appeared to suggest" is redundant.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It is not necessary to define orientation as it is not part of this discussion.

But it is. We need to help you understand the difference between orienteering and orientation before we can discuss specifics.

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Second, Wondergirl put up a post which appeared to suggest that homosexuality was a mental defect / illness or sin.

No, she didn't.

Yes she did, and is refusing to clarify.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

You keep saying that we are confused about what "orientation" means, but you haven't yet quarrelled with the definition we've endorsed.

Show me a definition of orientation (generic) and I'd be happy to comment. What do you fear?

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Please, explain, what leads you to suppose that we are confused.

Well, if WG does not understand the different between orienteering and orientation, and you don't know the difference between generic and sexual or nautical, then clearly we need to get to basics.

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I think both Wondergirl and I are on record holding that sin and mental disorder are not exhaustive.

Then what you do you think that it is?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But it is. We need to help you understand the difference between orienteering and orientation before we can discuss specifics.

Orienteering is using a compass to find your way. That also has nothing to do with the discussion on the table.

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Yes she did, and is refusing to clarify.

Please c/p my comment.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

"Appeared to suggest" is redundant.

I note that you did what you criticized earlier and edited your message. Appeared to suggest is not redundant. Since I asked for clarification, I am trying to be fear and pointing out how what you said appeared to leave the door open for you to provide clarification in case you meant something else.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Orienteering is using a compass to find your way. That also has nothing to do with the discussion on the table.

See - we are making progress. Now provide a definition for orientation and we can move past this point.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Methinks she was referring to you.

Tj said something to someone that not accepting the scripture means you are not accepting God's word. Then I said to Tj, You are assuming that we believe that the scripture IS God's word. Maybe it's not. We don't REALLY KNOW.. If you don't really know some, then that strikes at the credibility of all of it.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Show me a definition of orientation (generic) and I'd be happy to comment. What do you fear?

That you are using the very same debate tactic that I have seen you use before, as a way of derailing a discussion. That and I'm not interested in talking about orientation in general, since we are talking about sexual orientation (or trying to... this little tick of yours appears to be taking over the thread). You have refused several invitations to explain the relevance. That makes me think there isn't one.

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Well, if WG does not understand the different between orienteering and orientation, and you don't know the difference between generic and sexual or nautical, then clearly we need to get to basics.

Well, she gave a definition of sexual orientation, so why not stick with that?

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Then what you do you think that it is?

I've already suggested an answer, but you've been too fixated on the definition of "orientation" in general to attend to it. Not all deviations are defects.

Man, o man, you need a new bag of tricks. This junior high debate club stuff is b-o-r-i-n-g.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

See - we are making progress. Now provide a definition for orientation and we can move past this point.

Which one do you want?

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Originally Posted by cozyk

Tj said something to someone that not accepting the scripture means you are not accepting God's word. Then I said to Tj, You are assuming that we believe that the scripture IS God's word. Maybe it's not. We don't REALLY KNOW.. If you don't really know some, then that strikes at the credibility of all of it.

Ah, but you're trying to be rational. Can't allow that to happen.

What you say here makes me wonder why Tom doesn't want to say whether he takes the literal meaning of the Bible to be inerrant and infallible. He knows that if he says yes, then Ps.104.5 is waiting for him (it says the earth doesn't move) and he knows that if he says no, then that means the meaning of lots of passages that he wants to read literally is up for grabs.

It's just never a good idea to turn the Bible into an object of worship. That too is a kind of idolatry.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

That makes me think there isn't one.

Oh, there is one. He used it to derail another discussion on homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Paul --
1. felt tremendous guilt and shame
2. loathed himself
3. spouted self-judging rhetoric
4. had negative feeling toward his own body
5. felt controlled by something he had no power to change
6. experienced a war between what he desired with his mind and what he desired with his body
7. was driven to a legalistic religion of control
8. feared when his legalism was threatened
9. had an "interesting" attitude toward women
10. refused to seek marriage as an outlet for his passion
11. wrote, "And to help me keep from being too elated by the abundance of revelation, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I sought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness' " (2 Cor. 12:7-9)
12. also wrote, "You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" (Gal. 4:13)
13. felt beyond redemption as per his Jewish upbringing and thus, even more, appreciated what Christ had accomplished

Yeah, yeah, the thorn was his eyesight.

You don't make sense. In your list you contradict yourself?

Galatians 2:21 (New International Version)
21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I don't quite understand your defense of homosexuality not being a sin.

Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin. This includes homosexual sex, obviously, as well as heterosexual fornication and adultery.

Are you going to defend adultery as vehemently as homosexual sex?

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As to the argument that the Bible is written by men and not the inspired word of God...
Have a good day then... lets all believe what we think we should believe... how are you, one person, infallible compared to the thousands of years, the many scholars that have studied and debated what is in scripture?. why would someone believe what you have to say vs them?

G&P

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Ah, but you're trying to be rational. Can't allow that to happen.

Maybe you, me, and she could come to some rational conclusions and wind up this discussion before I have to do my end-of-day litter scooping.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

You don't make sense. In your list you contradict yourself?

Galatians 2:21 (New International Version)
21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I don't quite understand your defense of homosexuality not being a sin.

Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin. This includes homosexual sex, obviously, as well as heterosexual fornication and adultery.

Are you going to defend adultery as vehemently as homosexual sex?

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As to the argument that the Bible is written by men and not the inspired word of God......
have a good day then........lets all believe what we think we should believe........how are you, one person, infallible compared to the thousands of years, the many scholars that have studied and debated what is in scripture?.......why would someone believe what you have to say vs them?

G&P

So you agree that we should accept the authority of Tradition and that it should guide and inform our understanding of the Bible? Great!

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin. This includes homosexual sex, obviously, as well as heterosexual fornication and adultery.

Are you going to defend...homosexual sex?

We are talking about homosexuality (the sexual orientation), not homosexual sex (the behavior).

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Originally Posted by Akoue

What you say here makes me wonder why Tom doesn't want to say whether he takes the literal meaning of the Bible to be inerrant and infallible.

Sigh - why do you mis-represent me. I have responded to this question dozens of times on this board alone, but I guess that the truth would ruin a good story.

I accept what scripture says in context, and I accept what it says word for word. I am not going to use the word "literal" because I have folk twist that to mean things that are not intended (i.e. that parables are never fictional, etc.).

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He knows that if he says yes, then Ps.104.5 is waiting for him (it says the earth doesn't move)

You know, some atheists were saying that to me the other day, but when you read what it says in context, it does not say what you and the atheists claim. I will never understand why people who profess to be Christian wish to try to discredit the Bible.

But more importantly, why someone who claims that he does not want to distract from the discussion by providing a definition for a word being used the discussion continually tries to distract from the discussion by posting irrelevant items like this.

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It's just never a good idea to turn the Bible into an object of worship. That too is a kind of idolatry.

Right - we should only give it the respect that is deserving of the inerrant, infallible word that God has revealed to us.

Now are you done with that distraction?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

We are talking about homosexuality

You should remind Akoue - he keeps trying to distract from the topic (see his last message).

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(the sexual orientation), not homosexual sex (the behavior).

But if you don't know what an orientation is, how can you possibly understand what a "sexual orientation" is?

If you think that you know what an orientation is, just spit it out, and let's move forward. What are you afraid of?