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Church members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
We can look into their hearts?Quote:
you will certainly find differences because there is no guarantee that all these people are saved
I belonged to one for years.Quote:
Look for a church whose leadership is submitted to God's word as the sole standard of truth in doctrine, and do not force scripture to bend to their beliefs and theological system, but are willing to have their beliefs bent by the words of scripture.
You have no guarantee that just because a person is a member of a church that they hold to scripture as the standard of truth, or even that they are saved. So I would not be surprised that there are differences found.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No, but we can, in some cases get glimpses of what is in a person's heart based upon what they tell us.Quote:
We can look into their hearts?
So how do you determine which ten people to test?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Is a glimpse enough?Quote:
No, but we can, in some cases get glimpses of what is in a person's heart based upon what they tell us.
And this means they are not saved, if they don't understand the Bible exactly as you do?
I am not sure why I would need to test 10 people anyway. Before anything of the sort were done, you would need to define the objective. I am not clear what your objective would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Why do I need to know? If a person tells me that they reject the sacrifice on the cross, then I know that they are not saved because that is an essential given in scripture. If they reject Jesus as Saviour, then they are not saved because scripture says so.Quote:
Is a glimpse enough?
If a person says that they believe both of these, there may yet be something in their heart which is unknown to me. That is fine - that is between them and God. Salvation is more than just a verbal agreement to some set of doctrines, but there are some doctrines which are essential for salvation.
Why is it always made personal? It has nothing to do with whether they believe as I do - or you do, or as the Pope does, or anyone else.Quote:
And this means they are not saved, if they don't understand the Bible exactly as you do?
You've forgotten already? Begin with #266.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So belief in the Rapture is not an issue? Or not believing in a 24-hour day at Creation? Or believing the Creation story is a myth? Only "the sacrifice on the cross" and "Jesus as Saviour" are essential?Quote:
Why do I need to know?
The "you" was generic.
That's not an objective. That is an hypothesis or a matter of speculation, and not a well defined one. If you are trying to say that no ten Bible believing Christians agree on a certain set of doctrines, you would first have to identify what doctrines you are testing, and you would have to establish a scientifically significant sampling program, adequate to establish that the probabilities are sufficient to prove your hypothesis. To say that no ten Bible believing Christians agree would require far more than a sample of ten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Bottom line - if you are trying to turn this from a random comment into a testable objective, it needs to be much better defined. Defined from the point of view of the question to be answered, what the pass / fail criteria would be and a definition of the methodology.
Again, we would need to define these according to what scripture says.Quote:
So belief in the Rapture is not an issue? Or not believing in a 24-hour day at Creation? Or believing the Creation story is a myth? Only "the sacrifice on the cross" and "Jesus as Saviour" are essential?
We? How about you? What does scripture say Tom?Quote:
Again, we would need to define these according to what scripture says.
I did my best to give examples of what many consider non-essentials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Good thing I had stats classes in grad school. Now we need a random sample.
I agree with what you say here. This only serves to prove or illustrate my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Let's use a hypothetical situation. Suppose I argue that Jesus was not virgin born. (I absolutely do believe that He was, but suppose), If you tell me that your church teaches that He was born of a virgin and that your tradition says so, I counter that your tradition is of no value to me. Now if you appeal to Scripture to make your point, and I also believe in Scripture, then we can discuss our differences and let Scripture be the final authority.
It is illuminating that Catholics appeal to tradition that was oral for centuries before it was written down. By that time any witnesses to the supposed events were no longer present.
New Testament Scripture was written soon after the events while most of the eye witnesses were still alive.
But in spite of these difficulties, there are many who still argue that Tradition is as good as Scripture, and some have said in these posts that Tradition may actually be superior.
Gotten to arguments and in fighting
Closed
Ok, I will open it for a bit, one more report and complaining, and it closes
Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Help me, Tom. How should we define a Christian, one who is saved? Is his acceptance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice sufficient? What else would he need to do or believe in order to consider him saved? What if he believes that the Creation story is a myth or that Jonah didn't get swallowed by a great fish? To go with the OP's questiion, is Jesus the standard and all else is extra and unessential to salvation?
If it is then I'm saved. You see, I do believe in the sacrifice Jesus made, giving his life for our sins.Quote:
Is his acceptance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice sufficient?
Yes, I know, surprising isn't it? ;)
I'll go one step further. What if you don't believe in Jesus, many people don't, but are still religious, still accept God into their lives. So, is Jesus even necessary for salvation? Or is it only Christians that can be saved?Quote:
is Jesus the standard and all else is extra and unessential to salvation?
There are so many different faiths, so many different scriptures. So are we only discussing the scriptures in the bible, or are all scriptures up for discussion?
Not trying to start a fight, I truly would like to know what you all think.
I work with two wonderful, devoted to their religion and families, Hindu women. They were born into Hinduism and would never consider switching to Christianity any more than I would to Hinduism. Does God have a plan in mind for them? I'd like to think so. Heaven certainly won't be populated just with Christians, will it? Certainly God is big enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
That's what I believe WG, which is why I have such a problem with the "my way or the highway" people out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Who's to say who's right, who's wrong? Only God can decide that, no one else.
A mere human cannot hope to understand what God's will is, or who is saved, who will enter heaven. We can guess, but guessing never works.
I truly believe that in the end, it's what you do with your life that matters. After all, there are many people that are "saved" but would still step over a homeless man on the street and pretend not to see him, or walk away from a man beating his wife or child. Will those people really go to heaven just because they're saved? God isn't blind.
I think that heaven will be a lot like earth, a mix of all religions, all beliefs, all types of people. It will be a huge surprise to some, of that I'm certain. :)
That reminds me of the story of the Good Samaritan. Do you know it? The religious guys walked past the beaten-up guy on the side of the road, but it was a non-Jew who stopped to help him. And Jesus held him up as a good example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
The story rings a bell and is exactly what I was trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
One thing that make me believe that everyone will be accepted, well, the bible itself says so. Jesus didn't descriminate against anyone. He preached to all, hookers, beggers, thieves, whoever wanted to listen.
So who are we to say, "nope, you don't measure up!" That's God's choice, not ours.
The thieves that were crucified beside him, they had never heard scripture, had never been baptized, they were the worst of the worst. When they asked for forgiveness, Jesus forgave, because he saw what was in their hearts. God can see into our hearts, words don't mean anything. You can claim to believe, spout scripture until you're blue in the face, you may fool a few people, but you can't fool God. When judgement day comes, even if you are the most devout Christian in the eyes of other mortals, God will see the truth.
Easter gets to me, sorry. :(
There used to be a popular bumper sticker -- "I found God." No, it should have been -- "God found me."
First, you are deviating from what we were discussing. The question was about whether 10 Bible believing Christians would agree on the essentials. You said that no two would agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Perhaps before we move on to something else, you copuld provide us with some validation for that claim.
BTW, as for salvation, keep in mind that scripture was quite clear that we must believe in the true gospel and the true Jesus - not just believe in some variant of the gospel and some variant of Jesus.
The devil believes also. The question is whether a person believes in the one true Jesus and the gospel and has received Jesus as Lord and Saviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Acts 4:10-12Quote:
I'll go one step further. What if you don't believe in Jesus, many people don't, but are still religious, still accept God into their lives. So, is Jesus even necessary for salvation? Or is it only Christians that can be saved?
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV
John 14:5-6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV
There is and can be only one truth.Quote:
There are so many different faiths, so many different scriptures. So are we only discussing the scriptures in the bible, or are all scriptures up for discussion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It should read, I cooperated with God when He found me.
JoeT
I think that you are referring to the mid-70's "I Found It" campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I didn't say "essentials." I suggested a list of ten things but didn't specify.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
That would have been the point of the survey.Quote:
Perhaps before we move on to something else, you copuld provide us with some validation for that claim.
But is that the only and final revelation? Is God that small that only Christians will be in heaven?Quote:
BTW, as for salvation, keep in mind that scripture was quite clear that we must believe in the true gospel and the true Jesus - not just believe in some variant of the gospel and some variant of Jesus.
Are you comparing me to the devil Tom?Quote:
The devil believes also. The question is whether a person believes in the one true Jesus and the gospel and has received Jesus as Lord and Saviour.
What makes you so certain that you're "truth" is the one? Others would disagree, say that their way is the only way.Quote:
There is and can be only one truth.
One has to wonder, who's right? Not all of you can be right.
I missed your list of ten things - can you point me to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don't think that either you or I are in a position to judge God on that matter.Quote:
But is that the only and final revelation? Is God that small that only Christians will be in heaven?
The question should be, is there any other way for the price of sin to be paid than the perfect blood of Jesus shed on the cross? And if there is, then Jesus sacrifice was futile and un-necessary.
Me, Me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Heh heh heh, I guess you'll find some way to make anything I say negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
It does not matter what a man or woman, or even millions of billions of men or women want to believe. All that matters is what God has said. His word is final.Quote:
What makes you so certain that you're "truth" is the one? Others would disagree, say that their way is the only way.
Again - who is right - God!Quote:
One has to wonder, who's right? Not all of you can be right.
We never got that far. The thread was shut down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Precisely! We agree!Quote:
I don't think that either you or I are in a position to judge God on that matter.
Not unnecessary, but there might be more we don't know. We don't know the mind of God.Quote:
The question should be, is there any other way for the price of sin to be paid than the perfect blood of Jesus shed on the cross? And if there is, then Jesus sacrifice was futile and un-necessary.
We do know because God told us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Heb 10:11-14
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
NKJV
Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV
John 14:5-6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV
We don't know ALL of God's mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
We don't need to know more than what He already told us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
He will take care of the details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes He will, whether we think that He should have done it differently or not, whether we feel that He should have opened salvation up to additional ways of salvation or not. His decision is final and His decision is just.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Even if He does open heaven to many more than we think He should. But then, if we have a problem with that, we're in the wrong place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
God does not contradict Himself. Again, if there was another acceptable sacrifice, then that belittles what Jesus did on the cross, making it unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I have no reason to doubt God's word, which is quite specific and abundantly clear.
I don't agree. There may be life on other planets and God has a different plan for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The gospel given to us applies to ALL creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Rom 8:20-24
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
NKJV
Limited to this world, the creation here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Where specifically do you find "whole creation" limited to earth in scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
We cannot simply read something into scripture because it makes us feel more comfortable, or because we don't like what God said, or to bend scripture to fit our beliefs. So where do you find this limitation in scripture?
Me too Joe, me too! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
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