Ask Me Help Desk - What is truth?

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Tj3 :

As I stated : the proof is in the "eating of the pudding" : The FACTS show us that Christians score lower in the application of their moral and ethical values than Secular Humanists.

Ho hum - facts made up by the Cred Institute no doubt, where research on the west pointing compass is underway by engineers who got their licences in high school :p

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I missed the word "assume" in the Bible. Can you point out where you saw it?

As to whether it is right or not depends upon the context. It depends upon the context. Keep in mind that Israel was to be the people of God, a priestly nation who was to remain pure, so that they would be essentially God'/s messengers or representatives in the world and the nation through whom the Messiah would enter the world. Nothing is more important than the Messiah because without Him, and without the truth of the gospel, everyone goes to hell for eternity. Scripture speaks of such apostasy as whoredom against God. Not something to be taken lightly.

Further, as we seen the history of Israel, as well any other group, once heresy enters, it dopes not stop with one person, and because of the Holy nature of what Israel as a nation was to be, the danger of such false teaching cannot be overstated.

It says that in some English translations.

Others say:

Ex 20:13
13 "You shall not murder.
NKJV

"Murder" is a more accurate translation.

In the OLD KJV it says thou shalt not kill, which IS the more accurate translation. My bible is also an open bible and I have a strong's dictionary as well, which goes into depth about the meaning of words in the bible.

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Originally Posted by spyderglass

In the OLD KJV it says thou shalt not kill, which IS the more accurate translation. My bible is also an open bible and I have a strong's dictionary as well, which goes into depth about the meaning of words in the bible.

The KJV was an accurate translation 600 years ago, and I would no doubt recommend it if your first language was AD1611 English, but it is not the best translation if you are trying to understand what it says in today's vernacular.

It is the best translation because it is MORE pure. And like I said I have other sources for interpretation.

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Originally Posted by spyderglass

It is the best translation because it is MORE pure. And like I said I have other sources for interpretation.

"More pure" is not a term used to describe the accuracy of a translation.

If you wish to argue your opinion or likes against what it actually says, then we are not likely to come to common ground. Have you been reading Riplinger's writings?

Sure it is, the bible used today whether it be KJV, NKJV etc. is by no means pure. And of course I continue to support my opinions until I drop dead. However, my opinions are subject to change.

He that never changes his opinions, never corrects his mistakes, and will never be wiser on the morrow than he is today.
Author: Tryon Edwards

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Originally Posted by spyderglass

Sure it is, the bible used today whether it be KJV, NKJV etc. is by no means pure. And of course I continue to support my opinions until I drop dead. However, my opinions are subject to change.

You are welcome to your opinions, but in no case do your opinions become the standard by which we translate.

Well, I agree to disagree. I like to debate so much disagreeing agrees with me. :)
Later, I'm crashing another thread, until our next 'disagreement' lol

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So the argument is against what the Bible actually says, versus opinions of some people who would prefer to read it as "kill".

That's fine,although the same article said there was some reason to think that Hebrew scholars of the time interpreted it more broadly than as just a prohibition of technical murder, but a more general prohibition against killing human beings. I'm sure you read the whole article, just as I did.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I'll stick with the actual text.

Fine. But then you are stuck with the problem that "murder" is a legal definition that varies with time, culture, and geography. Why would God prohibit something that's only illegal if a human says it is? Is he just seconding human laws and doesn't care if they say you can kill women who don't float in this century, but not in this one? Is He saying you can kill a runaway slave in this country but not in that? What kind of commandment is that?

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BTW, just consider how I could claim that you meant something entirely different by applying alternate meanings to the words that you using other than what definition of the word is, and what the context is. Using an approach like that, where you alter what is actually said, you could make anything say whatever you wanted, but that would not be dealing honestly with the text.

Not sure what you are driving at. The Bible is clearly not a precision document, hence the need for so many layers of human interpreters like yourself. If really smart priests and rabbis (with no internet or back episodes of The Wire to distract them) can spend literally millennia arguing about what it means, I am certainly not going to sort it out, nor you, I'll hazard, with all due respect. :)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You are demonstrating that you know about as much about Hebrew as you do compass needles ;)

Let me fill you in on some things that you may not know.

1) The Bible was originally penned in Hebrew and Koine Greek, not English (this may come as a shocker to you)

2) The original word used in Hebrew gives the sense of murder, not general killing.

3) Some Bibles translate it as murder and some as kill. These tend to be the newer translations because the meanings of English words do vary over time (You may not be aware of this because English is not your first language). the NKJV, CEV, ESV, LITV, and RV for example, all translate it as murder.

You chose the KJV, which is almost 600 years old, and was translated into a form of English which is no longer in common use, and meanings of many words has varied by either small changes or in some cases major changes. In any case, what is most important is what the Bible says in the original language in which it was penned.

Ah, Tom, this is where you aren't accurate.

Yes, The old testament was written in Hebrew, and the New testament in greek. There are some verses written in Armaic which is closely related to Hebrew, but not enough that it would be easy to translate.

No, I didn't look on the internet for this info, this was taught to me in Catholic school. I can give you the verses that were originally written in Armaic if you want, but unless you have an original bible handy, it won't do you much good.

The bible has been translated so many times into so many languages that the original text has probably been lost along the way.

After all, if, and I do say if, the bible was written by God, surely we can agree that it was translated by fallible men, and goodness knows they probably missed a lot when translating this book.

Also, there are bibles out there that are written in plain english, easy to understand. These are the bibles that most religious schools have today. Most children cannot begin to understand the text of the older bibles.

So, how much has been lost in translation? I'd venture to say that most of what is written is very far removed from the original text.

Still, does that make it the work of God? Not in my opinion. If I were to write a book today, I'd write it in English. If it was a good book and my publishers decided to translate it, I'm sure that a lot of my original words would be lost in the translation.

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Originally Posted by asking

That's fine,although the same article said there was some reason to think that Hebrew scholars of the time interpreted it more broadly than as just a prohibition of technical murder, but a more general prohibition against killing human beings. I'm sure you read the whole article, just as I did.

Once again, opinions are fine, but I'll stick what was the text actually says.

Remember sound exegesis of the Bible requires that we allow the Bible to interpret itself, rather than for men to interpret it for us.

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Fine. But then you are stuck with the problem that "murder" is a legal definition that varies with time, culture, and geography.

The Old Testament included the law for the OT. The definition insofar as it pertained to ancient Israel is defined in the Bible. In addition, scripture requires that we abide by the laws of the land insofar as they do not restrict our ability to worship the true God. Therefore what is included in the scripture definition is the minimum - but it may be more restrictive as the l,aw of the land provides. Lastly, keep in mind that the context of scripture refers to killing as authorized by the state in alignment with the law of the Bible.

So your argument that it varies over time does not carry weight.

So if killing a witch is okay because it was the 'law of the land' (even though it's says thou shalt not kill)
Does that mean since abortion is legal, and it is the 'law' of the land that abortion is okay?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Ah, Tom, this is where you aren't accurate.

Yes, The old testament was written in Hebrew, and the New testament in greek. There are some verses written in Armaic which is closely related to Hebrew, but not enough that it would be easy to translate.

That is a claim, generally put forward by the RCC, but whether or over time any evidence comes forward in support of that position does not in any way assist your position.

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The bible has been translated so many times into so many languages that the original text has probably been lost along the way.

Have you studied the history of the manuscripts? You should. The evidence of the accuracy of the text that we have today has been established to be greater than any other ancient text by orders of magnitude. And yet the secular world accepts other ancient documents as accurate historic documents.

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Remember sound exegesis of the Bible requires that we allow the Bible to interpret itself, rather than for men to interpret it for us.

Do you read hebrew? If not, then you need man to translate it for you, which they've done. What makes you so certain that the men that translated the bible from hebrew to english, did it right? Or where they inspired by God as well?

Have fun on here Alt, tj
Night

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Originally Posted by spyderglass

So if killing a witch is okay because it was the 'law of the land' (even though it's says thou shalt not kill)
does that mean since abortion is legal, and it is the 'law' of the land that abortion is okay?

See why I say that these claims of contradictions are timewasters? As you said, you are in this for the argument, and in this post you have completely ignored all the evidence and all our previous discussions, coming up with a logical fallacy argument known as a strawman.

Prov 26:21
21 As charcoal is to burning coals, and wood to fire,
So is a contentious man to kindle strife.
NKJV

If you wish to have a discussion, that is fine, but if you are just going to ignore whatever is said, facts that are established so that you have have an argument, then go find someone who has time to waste.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Do you read hebrew? If not, then you need man to translate it for you, which they've done. What makes you so certain that the men that translated the bible from hebrew to english, did it right? Or where they inspired by God as well?

The interesting thing is that if you go to the experts in translation of the verses in the Bible which deal with the essentials, there is very little disagreement about what the meaning is. Differences are on points which do not alter the meaning of what is said.

The key points where there is disagreement is on points which are not essential.

So your point does not hold water.

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Have you studied the history of the manuscripts? You should. The evidence of the accuracy of the text that we have today has been established to be greater than any other ancient text by orders of magnitude. And yet the secular world accepts other ancient documents as accurate historic documents.

Funny you should ask. Actually I have studied the history of the manuscripts.

I will not say that what I learned is fact, but I did find some interesting things when doing my research.

What I found is that two brothers translated the original text of the bible. You see, it was translated at a time when no one understood the original language of the bible. Two men had the task of translating, and they understood much of the original hebrew in the bible, but they did not understand the Aramaic. They lived far apart from each other and kept in contact by mail (which in those days took months). When they came to a part of the original book that was in Armaic they made up what was said because they couldn't translate it. They wrote extensively to each other, wondering if it was okay to do this. They decided that it was better to make something up then to omit those portions of the bible, because it would be noticeable that those portions where missing. Because of the distance between them the information didn't always reach them in time to amend what they had written, but they each sent each other copies of what they had translated. In the end they both agreed that their translation (even those that were accurate as far as they knew) where contradictory to each other and they both agreed that the bible was the work of man, not God.

I will have to look up the books where I got this info, it's been many years and I don't remember the titles off hand. But yes, that is what I read.

Is it true? I can't say, after all, like the bible, it was written by man. Who knows if they wrote the truth?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Funny you should ask. Actually I have studied the history of the manuscripts.

I will not say that what I learned is fact, but I did find some interesting things when doing my research.

What I found is that two brothers translated the original text of the bible. You see, it was translated at a time when no one understood the original language of the bible. Two men had the task of translating, and they understood much of the original hebrew in the bible, but they did not understand the Aramaic. They lived far apart from each other and kept in contact by mail (which in those days took months). When they came to a part of the original book that was in Armaic they made up what was said because they couldn't translate it. They wrote extensively to each other, wondering if it was okay to do this. They decided that it was better to make something up then to omit those portions of the bible, because it would be noticeable that those portions where missing. Because of the distance between them the information didn't always reach them in time to amend what they had written, but they each sent each other copies of what they had translated. In the end they both agreed that their translation (even those that were accurate as far as they knew) where contradictory to each other and they both agreed that the bible was the work of man, not God.

I will have to look up the books where I got this info, it's been many years and I don't remember the titles off hand. But yes, that is what I read.

I don't know where you got this from, but either the book is off base, or your memory has forgotten some(or maybe most) key details over the years.

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Is it true? I can't say, after all, like the bible, it was written by man. Who knows if they wrote the truth?

You will continue to believe that because you refuse to believe anything that disagrees with what you want to believe, as we discussed previously.

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You will continue to believe that because you refuse to believe anything that disagrees with what you want to believe, as we discussed previously.

Ditto!

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I don't know where you go this from, but either the book is off base, or your memory has forgotten some key details over the years

My memory is sound, have no doubt of that. The accuracy of the book I cannot say, but did I read it and was my depiction of those words accurate? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Ditto!

The difference is that I have valid evidence for what I have stated. You refuse to accept anything that disagrees with what you want to believe, whether it is Biblical or historical.

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My memory is sound, have no doubt of that. The accuracy of the book I cannot say, but did I read it and was my depiction of those words accurate? Yes.

I cannot even think of any incident which might have been distorted which resembles what you have described. So if you are accurately reflecting what the book said, I would suggest that the book was not worth the money, nor the time spent to read it.

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I would suggest that the book was not worth the money, nor the time spent to read it.

And that's how I feel about the bible.

Tom, can't you just accept that I don't believe in the bible? Can't you just accept that I believe in God without the so called evidence you have?

Think about it. I don't think the bible was written by God, or inspired by God. I don't believe in organized relgion. I do believe in God. That in itself should be pretty amazing to someone like you.

Why the need to make me believe what you believe?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

And that's how I feel about the bible.

That is circular reasoning. You believe that about the Bible because you refuse to consider the evidence for the Bible if it disagrees with what you want to believe.

You are welcome to believe what you wish, but rejecting facts just because you don't like where they lead is just fooling yourself.

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Why the need to make me believe what you believe?

You are welcome to believe as you wish, but if you keep pushing your views about the Bible which are contrary to the truth, expect to be challenged.

I should ask you - if you really feel that the Bible is not relevant, why do you keep pushing your opinions?

I must say, I just do not understand why anyone would want to close their eyes to facts just because they might disagree with what they believe. That simply ensures that you are believing something which is not true through self-deception.

As I say, you are welcome to believe what you wish, but why would anyone want to believe something when that believe can be supported only by rejecting facts?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

And that's how I feel about the bible.

Tom, can't you just accept that I don't believe in the bible? Can't you just accept that I believe in God without the so called evidence you have?

Think about it. I don't think the bible was written by God, or inspired by God. I don't believe in organized relgion. I do believe in God. That in itself should be pretty amazing to someone like you.

Why the need to make me believe what you believe?

Alty,

I am going to answer... I am sure tj3 will have his own. As a Christian we are given a command by the Lord himself to go out a preach the good news to everyone. I am a Christian... I believe there is ONE way to the Father through Jesus Christ his son. It takes faith plus NOTHING. Anyone who does not believe this the Bible clearly teaches will be sent to a devils hell. This is why I want people to believe. I don't want to see ANYONE go to hell and I really do believe this will happen if you or anyone dies in their sins and doesn't accept Jesus Christ.

Course no one can MAKE you believe this... it has to be your free will. I don't think tj3 wants to MAKE you believe. I think he would like to give you compelling evidence that the Bible is indeed the Word of God and absolute truth.

And just one last thought... EVERYONE has the right to believe what they want to. I don't think I am forcing my beliefs down anyone's throat. :)

ClassyT, I do understand that as a Christian it is your mission to spread the word, and no, you aren't forcing your beliefs down anyone's throat.

I was a Christian, but I'm not anymore. I've told my reasons for that many times. I'm happy being a Deist, and I do accept God into my life, I just don't accept the bible as the "word of God".

My belief is this; if you are a good person, good in this world, treat people kindly and compassionately, then you will go to heaven, even if you don't believe in God.

I don't know who's right and who's wrong, I guess we won't find out until we die, but I don't think that God is going to punish me because I'm not Christian.

The God I believe in is a kind, caring, loving, forgiving God, therefore he will not judge because I don't believe in a book.

You do have a right to your beliefs, and if they bring you comfort then I'm happy for you. My beliefs bring me comfort as well. :)

Fair enough... :)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Fair enough ...:)

:)

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Originally Posted by classyT

And just one last thought...EVERYONE has the right to believe what they want to. I don't think i am forcing my beliefs down anyones throat.

Everyone may have rights to think as they please, but not everyone thinks right.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Everyone may have rights to think as they please, but not everyone thinks right.

I think we all agree on that.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Alty,

I am gonna answer ...i am sure tj3 will have his own. As a Christian we are given a command by the Lord himself to go out a preach the good news to everyone. I am a Christian....i believe there is ONE way to the Father thru Jesus Christ his son. It takes faith plus NOTHING. Anyone who does not believe this the Bible clearly teaches will be sent to a devils hell. This is why I want people to believe. I don't want to see ANYONE go to hell and i really do believe this will happen if you are anyone dies in their sins and doesn't accept Jesus Christ.

course no one can MAKE you believe this...it has to be your free will. I don't think tj3 wants to MAKE you believe. I think he would like to give you compelling evidence that the Bible is indeed the Word of God and absolute truth.

And just one last thought...EVERYONE has the right to believe what they want to. I don't think i am forcing my beliefs down anyones throat. :)

Good answer.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Everyone may have rights to think as they please, but not everyone thinks right.

JoeT

I agree. But even though I don't think you're right, you still have the right to believe what you want.

Peace.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I agree. But even though I don't think you're right, you still have the right to believe what you want.

Peace.

I agree.

As my father used to say to people he disagreed with, "You're entitled to your stupid opinions." He was usually grinning, and I always thought it was funny. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I agree. But even though I don't think you're right, you still have the right to believe what you want.

That seems to be the general line of thought here, except for a very few creationist exceptions.

From me everyone may BELIEVE whatever he/she prefers.

Elevating BELIEFS to a level of "truth" without OSE, I will however always oppose !

:)

.

.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

From me everyone may BELIEVE whatever he/she prefers.

As long as they don't mind being abused for their beliefs. :D

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Elevating BELIEFS to a level of "truth" without OSE, I will however always oppose !

Agreed - show us the OSE for Atheism.

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As long as they don't mind being abused for their beliefs.

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I note that you choose to make accusations without backup. That is so often the alternative that people choose rather than deal with the issues at hand. Why can we not simply deal with the facts?

Why is not possible to stay on the topic?

Tom, you've harassed and abused me many times on many different posts, just because I don't agree with you.

I'm not willing to go back and find all of the posts, I don't have the time or the desire, but you know it's true.

It never ceases to amaze me that a person such as yourself, a Christian, a believer in the bible, doesn't even follow the ten commandments. Whatever happened to love thy neighbor? Or did they change it to "Love thy neighbor but only if he agrees with you" ?

Ho hum. :(

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, you've harassed and abused me many times on many different posts, just because I don't agree with you.

If you really believed that, you could at least come up with some evidence of your accusations.

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I'm not willing to go back and find all of the posts, I don't have the time or the desire, but you know it's true.

Yeah, I did not think that you would - yet you claimed that it happened "many time on different posts". That is the problem with false accusations - hard to find evidence. Easy to make unsubstantiated accusations, but really hard to actually back them up. So might as well just post the false accusation and then refuse to come clean. It is also easier to try to smear another person than to deal with the issue if things go against what you want to believe. That is why you find Cred always making false accusations and engaging in name-calling.

Is this one of your "good works"?

Why don't you deal with the issue?

Now, let's see if we can get back on topic:

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Elevating BELIEFS to a level of "truth" without OSE, I will however always oppose !

Agreed - show us the OSE for Atheism.

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If you really believed that, you could at least come up with some evidence of your accusations.

Fine, I'll compile a list of evidence if that's what you really want, give me a few days, it's late and I don't want to search tonigh. Of course, knowing you, you'll say something like "of course it sounds bad, if you read the verse before and after what was quoted then it wouldn't be bad at all".

I know your games Tom, you never play fair. Sadly, I'm now going to your level, and I hate that.

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Is this one of your "good works"?

No, this is me at my worst, and I'm not proud of it, but alas, I am human. When goaded I usually fight back. And your excuse?