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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Oh Joe,

I'm so sorry if it sounded like I was saying all Catholics are bad, that's truly not what I meant.

I have many friends that are Catholic, they are wonderful people, and they've never looked down on me because of my beliefs. You are one of those people Joe, and I do consider you a friend.

I guess I'm not explaining myself well. Honestly, in order to do so I'd have to write an entire book, I don't think anyone wants to read it here. ;)

Catholic school isn't the only reason I turned away from organized religion. I was a memeber of the Lutheran church , I've done research and gone to services at Pentecostal churches, baptist churches and many others. Organized religion just isn't for me, because it's run by man, and therefore it's mans beliefs that are being preached.

I don't know how to go about making everyone understand without condeming others beliefs,I'm sorry if that's the way it came out. I guess I'm going about this all wrong.

I hope you know that I would never intentionally say anything to hurt you, I'm sorry if I did.

Alty.

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I was just trying to explain things in my own way. That's all. No offence taken. I do understand alty and I did make that clear in previous posts... When I said how I am only a visitor at churches. I do not belong in any church because I belong to God.

I really do feel we are more a like then you realize.. There is this person that would say you're a universalist.. Meaning your not confined to any man made rituals, customs and churches. I feel there is nothing for you to explain.. It is black and white.

Just for example, somebody called me a closet universalist because I do not conform to a lot of beliefs that are held by many churches or denominations or religions.

For example: Certain churches teach there peoples that if you do not get your child baptised.. If anything happens to that child. The child is not considered saved. In my own personal view, and Gods word within my heart. Gods spirit is already within us and none of us have to be baptised to be saved because I feel that we are already are, that God has baptised us with his spirit as soon as we are given life. I feel that church and the baptism of a child is more of a show for the church and family.

Some of my family call it laziness but I believe that there is no reason to get a child baptised. The church teaches otherwise, but according to the bible only adults got baptised as a sign of their commitment to God, when they were OLD ENOUGH TO MAKE THAT CHOICE Themselves..

I hope you know where I am going with this.. There are many things it does not matter what church or religion I go to. It is not the same as my personal beliefs and I do not think any of them would be exactly what I am looking for because I have my own personal set beliefs that I think are the right ones that I feel God wants me to make.

(;

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Originally Posted by go-ask-mom

... As far as the old testament isn't that all forgotten, forgiven now? I don't know of any Christians who follow it...? Thats just my problem in understanding it! :)

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Not correct : most fundamental Christians still insist that Genesis is a literal , historical, and factual representation of the origin of the universe and life on earth.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Not correct : most fundamental Christians still insist that Genesis is a literal , historical, and factual representation of the origin of the universe and life on earth.

:rolleyes:

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That is correct.

Rebbie, thanks for your reply. Concerning the practice thing for the preachings, I find that here also. Well, I've ever met someone preaching EXACTLY the same thing on two different Sundays. But it's perhaps a good thing if there are newbies, or that someone has not verymuch understand the preach.

Alty, someone can be a christian without going to church, you know. The church, I think is only there to 'help' you, even if in some, you don't really receive that help. The church helps in the way that you 'go and make of all nations, God's disciples'. But if you keep a good relation with God, I'm sure that you don't need to go to church, because there may also be people influencing you to go towards the wrong path. Thanks for having shared your experiences, you, Rebbie, Joe and others.

Peace be with you all.

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

... someone can be a christian without going to church ...

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Yes someone could. But what is "wrong" with people being Deist??

What is more important to a deity (if such an entity exists) :

- That people believe in it's existence ?
- That people believe in all the apparently human created dogmatic claims about that deity ?

Or is it even possible that such a deity couldn't care less what human beings believe ?

Salam / Peace be with you too !

:)

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Alty, someone can be a christian without going to church, you know. The church, i think is only there to 'help' you, even if in some, you don't really receive that help.

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Ann Landers once said that church is a hospital for sinners.

Dear ALL,
Whatever we think and believe comes from one source. Since you believe in God not the Bible that is great. It would be worse if you could not believe in God.

The Bible is the sacred scriptures. May be what is Sacred, and Scripture? This is where your problems originates.
Shortly, Sacred refers to Holiness, or sanctity, is the state of being holy or sacred, that is, set apart for the worship or service of gods. It could also mean being set apart to pursue (or to already have achieved) a sacred state or goal, such as Nirvana. It is often ascribed to people, objects, times, or places.
Then scripture is the writings of Prophets, and people of God.

To sum up, the Bible is a book for holy words written by prophets and people of God whom you believe. If God the one you believe has His people,is it wrong to trust them. They wrote it by the directions from God. And God wanted His words to reach all the people in the form they can easily understand (languages).
So my friend, if you believe in God, His words and instructions are found in the Bible. Read it and you shall be enlighted.
Thanks.

Hujambo, PIMA !

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Originally Posted by PIMA

It would be worse if you could not believe in God.

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Worse ? Why is that?

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Originally Posted by PIMA

The Bible is the sacred scriptures.

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For a Christian. Not for a Deist !

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Originally Posted by PIMA

So ... if you believe in God, His words and instructions are found in the Bible

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That is what you BELIEVE. But is that so? Surely not for a deist !

Kwaheri from ex-Dar-es-Salam inhabitant !

:rolleyes:

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Pima, I know very well what Christians claim the bible to be, my belief is different.

Let me tell you a little secret. Yes, I believe in God, without believing in the bible or church. I realize that this disturbs allot of people. How can she deny the bible, how can she turn her back on church, can we change her mind, can we save her soul?

Let me assure you, my soul is just fine, and so is my mind (although I'm sure a few of you think I'm off my rocker ;)). I have given all of this allot of thought, this wasn't something I just decided over night. In fact, until Cred gave my beliefs a name, I thought that I was the only one who believes what I believe.

We are all people, human beings, and as such we are fallible. Yes, we make mistakes, we "sin" and we either learn, move on, live good lives, treat others kindly, or we don't.

Christians aren't immune to sin, they aren't any "better" because they go to church and read the bible. As for communion, do you really think that a wafer and a sip of wine is going to make a difference? Especially if you go home after church to beat your wife and kids, cheat on your taxes and molest your daughter (yes, my childhood friends very catholic family was just like that).

Sorry, but you all will have to do without me in the fold, I'm happy were I am, I just wish you al could accept it.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Christians aren't immune to sin, they aren't any "better" because they go to church and read the bible.

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Did someone say they are?

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As for communion, do you really think that a wafer and a sip of wine is going to make a difference?

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No one says they will. That's not the reason why Christians take Communion... "to make a difference."
I suspect you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. In fact, I'm not even sure you had a baby in that bathwater in the first place.

Wondergirl, you are right, there was no baby with the bathwater.

I never asked for anyone to tell me to read the bible, I simply asked why so many people put their faith in a man written book.

I stated from the beginning that I wouldn't change my mind, but still I'm told to read the bible, read the bible, read the bible. I've read it, many times, have no desire to read it again. Here's the latest request.

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So my friend, if you believe in God, His words and instructions are found in the Bible. Read it and you shall be enlighted.

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I know that most of you think that the only way is through the bible, really, I understand. But why can't someone believe in God without the bible, without church?

Okay, I'm just getting upset, and I'm obviously upsetting other people, so maybe it's time to close the thread, it was a bad idea, I should have known better.

Peace to all, I'll request that it's closed.

Alty alty alty,

Your not upsetting me at all. I do not know why you would request the thread to be closed? Why are you getting upset?

I believe Gods word is written within each of us. Not necessarily in a book but within our soul, spirit. So alty there is no reason for you to get upset..

Edit:::

Not everybody is going to agree or understand, but that is going to be the case no matter who you talk to.

Getting defensive just because somebody else is, is not going to help at all. Discussion is needed here on this thread, because then maybe you will open Other Christians eyes in a way they have never been able to see God before.

That is one of your goals or purposes is to share with people what the TRUE GOD IS.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

But why can't someone believe in God without the bible, without church?

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They can and do all the time.

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Okay, I'm just getting upset, and I'm obviously upsetting other people, so maybe it's time to close the thread, it was a bad idea, I should have known better.

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This time there's a baby in that bathwater that you are throwing out. Let's save the baby and toss only the bathwater.

Do you realize, Alty, that you, at least here on AMHD, very much show that God is in your heart and is working in your life? Jesus said, there are two great commandments: 1) Love God 2) Love others. Isn't that what you do? Seems to me it is.

Okay Joe and Wondergirl, now I'm misty eyed.

I just don't want anyone to be upset, least of all me. ;)

I really don't know why I started this post, what did I hope to accomplish, what did I hope to discuss? In a way I guess I just wanted to state my opinion, my beliefs, and see if anyone else felt the same way I did. I should have gone about it differently I guess. 20/20 hindsight is a b*tch. ;)

I'm sorry I got defensive, if you knew me, my life, all my experiences, and felt the same way about them that I did, then you'd understand. No one can walk in someone else's shoes, and it's so hard to explain clearly why I believe what I believe.

If you believe in the bible then great, I hope no one thinks that I'm saying don't read it, even though it sounds like I am saying just that. Did that make any sense?

It's not for me, and I have read it, church isn't for me either, and I have gone to many different ones, many different times.

I have felt God, but I haven't ever seen him. I've experienced things that are too real, and too surreal for me to think it's just a weird event, or a twist of fate. I believe, but I've been told so many times that it's not enough, that my belief isn't real or acceptable because I won't accept the bible as the word of God and I won't go to church to hear men preach about something they read from the bible.

I have been told that I'm going to hell because of my beliefs, I've been told that I'm a terrible person because I won't read the bible and accept it. All this from Christians, wonderful, peace loving, God loving, God fearing, bible reading, church going Christians.

The other day the little girl across the street who is one year older than Sydney and is Mormon, told my little girl that she is going to go to hell because she doesn't go to church. Sydney came home crying, asking if it was true. I've told them that God is a wonderful, wonderful being, forgiving, kind, caring, loving, and that he would never turn his back on them. All that was shot down because of a few hurtful words, and for the first time in a long time I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs "I'll see you in hell!"

I'm sorry that this is so long. I'm sorry that I've been snippy today, but seeing the hurt in my daughters eyes brought back so many hurtful memories, and those memories still hurt today. Now she has to deal with this, all because of narrow minded people who think it's their way or the highway.

Okay, enough. I won't close the thread, but please, no more telling me to read the bible, I have, cover to cover and it's not for me, it never will be. As for my kids, I'll talk when they ask, teach when they have a question, and tell them exactly what my parents told me, it's up to you to find your path, and when you do, don't let anyone steer you somewhere else.

As for the two of you, Wondergirl and Joe, thank you. :)

I am sorry that your daughter went through that pain... but you know that it is not true and hopefully your daughter is reassured by your words that it is not true..

God is not a hateful god. God is a loving God. Love is the greatest thing in the world and that is what your showing us and your children Alty.

I hope you know that Not all Christians believe what was told to you, or your daughter.

Take care Alty.

I do know that Joe, but because I've encountered so many Christians that do, I tend to put up a wall first, judge every word, because I'm just waiting for negativity and judgement.

I do know not to judge someone else because of their beliefs, and I try really hard not to, but I've been judged many times because of my beliefs, and in a negative way, so I have my shield up and ready at all times. I am learning to listen and not judge, but I've been doing this for a long time, it's hard to change your ways. ;)

So, having said that, forgive me if I get testy, snippy and b*tchy, it happens, and I am trying, really I am. :)

Peace. :)

Hi Alty,
I can understand your frustration at those that know they are right. I shared it for a time until I came to realize that they were trying to hold onto something to help them through, as we all do! I think having to work to establish a personal relationship with the God that I understand, has made me see to put nothing else between HIM, and me, and that's what I hold onto to get me through, but I understand those who need the ceremonies, and tradition, to help them bring it home to them.

Never, as hard as it is, let the ideas of others separate you from that relationship that guides your life, and you can bet, they won't either, so you see we humans are not that different, no matter the labels, dogma, or tradition of those that claim to be different.

This is a great thread ALTY, and you know that it one of the few times that peaceful debate has gone on, by such a diverse set of people, in these threads. Don't be frustrated, just understand that sometimes we can't help but believe what we do, we just do.

Okay Tal, now there's a tear running down my face. Thank you for your words, they mean so much.

Okay kids, let's keep talking, I promise I'll listen, and I also promise to tell you if I don't agree, after all, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. No comments about the old dog part. ;)

I had a long talk with my little girl today, and I told her that what her friend said was wrong, and that God didn't like what she said, because God doesn't like people to be hurtful and mean to each other.

You know what she did. She went back to her friend today, after many days of not talking to her, and she said. " I'm going to heaven too, my mommy says so, and if you're lucky, we'll get to play there together, but not if you're mean, because God doesn't like that". Way to go Sydney! :)

Alty, God comes to us where we are. He doesn't ask you to make the first move; He makes it. We don't find Him; He finds us.

I'm glad He found you.