Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off the same basis-
That you can't have proof, you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers.
Do you see what I mean?
Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?
Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.
That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.
But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?
That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.
If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

Hi beautiful Margog :)

I was born Catholic from the time the doctor's smacked my butt ( hey, isn't that a sin? :)
From the time I could hear, see and breath, I knew Catholisism. I had cousins who were priest and nuns and Aunts who were nuns, and a sister who wanted to be a nun, but it never did happen.

It is who I am and what I believe. I love the teachings, as far as love one another, turn the other cheek and do good unto others. I love the soft music and peaceful readings and the homilys to follow.

Now, if I were raised Jewish or Baptist, I bet I would hold true to that faith. I don't ever discount any faith were there is a love of God.

I don't think by faith... is the faith... the perfect faith... but it is for me. But I have a love in my heart for all faiths.

Bless you and here's an Allheart hug for you :)

Magog,

You're welcome.

but I have an issue with treating a presumption as a fact and then 'learning' from it... do you see what I mean?

No, I don't. I was talking about a relationship with God. I have a relationship with God, I feel His Presence, I hear His voice, I know Him. I know about Him, but I also know Him... I can't prove that to you, I would that I could. But it's by faith, grace, and trust. I know that I know that I know that God is real and He is my Father and loves me and cares for me. Someday He will send for me and I will be in His Presence always and forever.

What I was trying to say is if you get to know this God of mine, through reading His Word, then He would give you proof. He would make Himself known to you. That would be your proof.

It's not just reading the Bible. You asked about faith. You said what is faith? I told you. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Faith in something you can prove, is NOT faith. Do you really want to understand faith? Is that your real question? Is that what you are really looking for here? Or are you asking which religion is the right one? Everyone thinks theirs is right... or else they wouldn't believe in it. Right? So, there is no way to get an anwer to that question on here.

You said "and that faith we have should not require evidence."

Faith and evidence are opposites. You can't have faith in something you can see, you know for sure. Oh, you can have faith in your lover, but you still have to trust that lover, and then that lover may still betray you.

Faith is trusting that what you believe in is real. OK? Spirirtual faith in a higher Being, is trusting that what you believe is real. If it be Christian, or any other 'religion', that's what faith is.

As for other 'religions' it is not God's will that any should perish. I am not here to judge other religions... if they have a real faith in God and believe with all their hearts, I'm sure God will honor them.

But if you refuse to accept that faith is believing without seeing, faith is trusting in 'a higher Being' without 'making sense' then there is no answer for your question.

And I guess that is the answer... there is no answer.

Sorry, I wish I could have helped you. I pray you do find some answer.

Try looking inside yourself, sometimes we already know the answer, it's just not the one we wanted.

Peace and hope to you. I pray God will reveal Himself to you, and show you the truth and teach you the path you should walk. Blessing and peace from God.

Tsila

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

margog85 : you asked "What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?".

Of course such a question receives replies from wide differing world views.
Some people just need a "father" figure to keep them going - an imitation memory from early life, where father was the one who saved you, who took care of you, who was there for you - so they accept an imaginary deity that performs that function (a "god").

Other people at some time in their life start understanding that deities are like tooth fairies and gnomes : they simply do not exist. So they re-arrange their life to continue without the "alternative" father figure, i.e. the "god" figure.

And there are people who are at some in-between position : they realize that the Christian (or other religious) story can't be correct, but they hold back in implementing the logical conclusion that you have to go - and can go - on without deities.

Faith in a deity or deities is about fear : fear for the unknown, fear for death, fear to be alone, fear for death, etc. Faith is about the need to "lean" on something to silence these fears.

People believe, because during their childhood they were brainwashed in the most friendly way possible - but never-the-less brainwashed - into believing into the existence of an almighty father figure who would take care of you.

If that suits people : fine with me! I have no problem with that.
Where I do have a problem with is that some of them insist that what they believe should also be believed by the rest of humanity, and they refuse to accept a no answer. I have a problem with such people, because of their intolerance for the freedom of choice by others (while they themselves always insist on that same freedom of choice for themselves).

:rolleyes:

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Now Credendovidis, relax, take this in the best way possible, I'm not saying you are wrong o right or other wise, I'm just asking you to "CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING." (you know like Bill Nye the science guy!! Haha, I used to love that show.

And moving on, So you say people have "faith" in things simply because of fear? (mindyou there are those who do, indeed do this.) No other reason? Surely you believe in a human soul, or spitit, on account you believe in free will, and the ability to freedom of choice, NO? We have no real "objective" (was it you who told me about this?? ) evidence, only "subjective" evidence of the spirit. Yes, it would apear that our mind and our brain are two seperat things, yet both tend to interact so closely that it's next to impossible to distinguish between the two. Other than one is Physical (the brain.) the other is abstract (the mind). Both, as you have pointed out, have influence on our behaviors. See, "conditioning" or "brain washing", is one way our brain influences the mind, by distiorting our perceptions and the information that is taken in. But not only as children are we brain washed, but even as adults, though we "seem" more aware of things as adults, we are still pulled into what we see others doing, or how something's make us "feel", and many other things. Do you think a specific type of women is attractive? Well, that is not just because of a childhood experience, though it seems to be the biger part, there is still what we experience as adults that can change our perceptions. See the brain is Plastic, and has the ability to change, adapt.

If you disagree, feel "free" to comment further, or ask questions. Just remember I'm not saying you are wrong, just that there may be more to what you say. As the original Poster said, there is question and answer then question again, running in circles, and what not. It seems never ending, and may very well be. Who knows! I'd enjoy hearing form you, as I always do, my passionate friend.

Now on to the idea that you dislike other people insisting upon your freedom to choose, I'd simply like to ask, "are you not doing the same thing by telling them they should not exercis the "Freedom to choose" weather or not they should tell people about their beief and that they feel they are right, and that you or others should follow? I don't know but that seems like a bit of a confusing statement. NO?? Implying others should not use their freedom, because it imposses upon your freedom?? Why not just let tehm say or imply as they will and leave it at that. Personally, I don't think it really matters what you choose to do, only what I choose to do. (on account that I'm the only one who controls my behavior, and that is quit hard enough with out worrying about others behavior.) So unless some one intends on harming me or such, really what's the harm. So you don't agree with me, or even choose to recognise my belief, it's not yours it's mine. No?

Faith in things because of fear that is Cred0's opinion due to his limited comprehension of the faith concept.

He says you are free to say whatever you believe as long as you FIRST state
I BELIEVE...

Does that clear any of your confusion?

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Originally Posted by margog85

Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off of the same basis-
that you can't have proof, you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers.
Do you see what I mean?
Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?
Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.
That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.
But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?
That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.
If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

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My brother, Faith belongs to those who keep it. YOu can't understand something that is not in you, but is in aonther person. That is theirs to hold true, you have to find your own truth/path/understanding/way/belief/faith so on and so on. "to each it's own." Some believe God is a Being, some believe God is many beings, some believe God is all around us, some believe God is in us, some Believe they are Gods, some believe We are all God, or Gods, some believe tha God is that part of you that you can't see or touch (you just know its' there.) Personally, I believe that None and all are true.

You want to know what faith is? First why not try to define faith. Sure the dictionary says it's a belief with out proof. But a belief is described as an opinion, and an opinion is baised on one's personal perspective. You may try to decide what Faith is to you. All we can try to do is tell you what faith is too us, and you, you can agree, and disagree with what ever you want, (or ignore us) but what may matter is not that you choose one to agree with one of us, but that you have the ability to choose one, what ever the choice is, it is yours to make.
If some one believes that you will not make it into heaven because you don't choose their faith, that is their own belief (thier choice), what is yours? And don't feel bad if you can't decide or be afraid that you will be punished for not making a choice, because as I've said before, If what ever made us is indeed all knowing, it will know that we are creatures that have doubts, and fears, and don't know what is right or wrong. (in all truth, we can only choose what is right for our self. Even then life can show us other wise, that it is wrong.) We don't really know what is meant to happen or if its spose to happen only that it is happeing or has happened. It seems likely that it put it's self into this existence, and therefor probably understands our human conditions and has forgiven us.

Do as you feel you must, but try not to depend on others to give you the answer, find it with in yourself. As yoda tells Luke (on dagoba) when Luke askes, "what's in there?" Yoda, "only what you take with you." Or as the saying goes, "the only wisedom a man finds at the top of a mountain is the wisdom he takes with him." Or something like that, I'm tired, and if you need any more clearity, may I suggest opening a book on religion, read as many as you feel is nessissary, heck why not read about philosophy too.

"Yesturday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is why it is called the present." - Kung Fu panda, the turtle master guy.

If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

What seems impossible to me is that you have gotten so many answers already and still do not understand what faith is.

Do you really want an answer?

Faith is like the air you breath…you cannot see it, but you trust that it will sustain you if you continue to exercise your lungs, and take in the oxygen that enters into your blood stream and is carried to every cell of your body…

Do you believe in gravity? You cannot see it. Someone said gravity holds us on this spinning planet. But you don't even know for sure the earth is spinning. Do You? They say the earth is moving at a certain speed, have you gauged that for yourself or do you believe it is just standing still? Or do you just take their word for it, by faith.

They can explain it and you can chose to believe it or not. I think you are choosing not to believe in faith.

Please reread my long comment again, if you even read it the first time. Read it slowly and carefully….. I already told you exactly what you are still asking for now. I told you what I believe and why I believe it, and the reason I can be so confident is that God has revealed Himself to me in many ways.

I do not believe this way because my parents did, because my parents did not believe exactly the way I do. I believe because I have put God to the test and He did as He said He would. He is true and faithful to His Word.

I believe in the Blood of Jesus that washed away all my sin even before I was born and now I am free from sin because I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord. I have peace and strong confidence. Something I can tell you, but there is no way to show you. That's impossible.

To ask for proof of faith is like asking for proof ofunbelief.

Can you prove to me that you still do not understand? I do find it so hard to believe, so go ahead prove it. Prove your unbelief!!

Well, Tsila, I did read your answers. You seem somewhat aggravated with me for not 'getting it', which I don't really understand. Maybe all of this is clear as day to you, but it's not to me.
I understand that YOU have faith, and that OTHERS have faith, and I know what faith IS, but I still can't grasp it myself and really get a good grip on HOW that kind of faith is possible.

If I didn't really want an answer, I wouldn't have asked the question, read the responses, and responded to them. So don't ask silly questions like that, obviously I'm trying to figure it out. When you ask a question like that, it comes off as condescending. Not trying to argue, just pointing it out in case you didn't realize or intend it to sound that way.

And I'm not asking for 'proof' of faith, whatever that means- What I'm interested in the thought process behind coming to faith in something- how to narrow it all down from the vague idea that there's something out there beyond yourself to the specific religious 'truths' that people have. And just saying that 'reading the bible' or 'just trusting' doesn't cut it for me. If that's how it worked for you or for others, that's fine and great for you- but I'm looking for a different kind of answer- something a little more specific.

If you can say that that's a simple process, something that I should have come to a full understanding of within the past week or two since I posted this question, then I have to disagree. People spend their entire lives searching and trying to figure this out- so please don't be hard on me because it's taking me a while to understand.

I'm not asking what faith IS- I know that it's belief in something you can't see but still believe to be true and real- but I don't understand what's behind that faith, how to get to a place where you really can understand what you have faith in, out of all the different options out there, and be confident in it as being 'right'.

If you re-read my question, or maybe read it fully, not just the title, maybe you'd understand better exactly what I'm looking for. I know it's long- but maybe it'd clarify a bit what I was asking for here.

I really don't want to argue, but you're coming off sort of confrontational- and this is not what I was looking for. It wasn't meant to be a cut and dry question, I wasn't just looking for a definition of faith or of what other people believe- I wanted a discussion of how people came to believe what they do... why they do... how they sorted out all the confusion in their heads and came to some sort of peace with whatever beliefs they finally decided were 'right' or 'right' for them...

So forgive me if I'm still discussing it and asking more questions that come to mind- but there's no need to get frustrated with me, though. I'm trying to understand something that is (possibly) much bigger than myself. I think it's normal that it takes some time.

=)

Faith in God is only possible by the Holy Spirit.

Well Margog,

I reread my answer and it did come off much more harsh than I had intended. But you asked for people to give you examples, to tell how they came to their faith and several people have done that. Have you ever heard of a leap of faith?

I guess it is like jumping off a cliff, you just have to decide to believe in something... is there a drawing toward anything in you? Something you feel on the inside, a longing. A gut feeling?

When I tell you about my God, you say 'that's your belief', well that is all I know about. That is all I know to tell you. I could tell you about other religions, but I don't believe that way... why would I tell you about something I do not believe in? So when you say things like 'that's your belief... it's like you are rejecting all I have to say because I am telling you about how I found faith and peace and joy.

I believe there in only one God, that is my belief, because I believe there is only one God. 'round and round, I believe because that's my belief, I believe there is only one God. And that's why I believe it. OK?

Dear one, I am sorry I came off so harsh. But I feel like you want someone to convince you of a particular religion or belief. That is something you will have to look inside yourself and come to on your own decision. No one can tell you what to believe. Or how to find your path.

I would suggest you try praying, but you would dismiss that too as MY belief so if you won't take advise or try something that someone else is so convinced is real and true and right. Then I really don't know what to tell you.

I came to my belief when I saw the joy and peace my sisters, and their husbands had in their faith in God and I wanted what they had. I was unhappy, I had problems, I felt alone in the world. I watched them and how they were so happy and when they had a problem they prayed and the problems seems to work themselves out to their favor quickly and easily. I watched Christians and I listened to them talk and I saw how they conducted themselves and how they lived. I wanted what they had because it was so much better than what I had.

So I decided I was going to believe in God. I made a decision to believe. We have the power to decide, to make up our will that we are going to believe something. Then we can do it.


Then I began to study for myself the Word of God, other books by people like Kenneth Copeland and others. I read a lot, I prayed a lot and I finally met this God they believed in, He reached out to me and at a time when I needed him most, my mother's death. If it had not been for my faith in God at that time, I could not have endured it.

I decided to believe in Christianity because I had seen it work for others and I wanted to be like them. Of course we all have our own personalities, even family... one sister is very strict, the other is more relaxed and I am even more relaxed. But God accepts our differences because that's how he made us. He does not want carbon copies, He just wants our devotion and love and for us to spend time with Him. There are not a lot of rules and commandments. Simply, love God and love others. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Do what is right even when no one is watching.

That is why I believe in My God and Father, because I do have a personal relationship with Him.

That was some 30 years ago and I have not regretted it, or changed my belief. I have grown and matured, though I still like to have fun and be mischievous sometimes. I never stop learning, and growing. There is still so much more to learn and no one will ever learn it all. Every time I read the Word, I learn something new, even if I have read it many times before. It is new every time I read it because the Holy Spirit that abides in me, the One Who wrote the book, knows how to teach it to us as we submit to HIM.

I personally believe that Jesus is the only way to God. It is my job as a Christian to tell others about Him and what He has done; not to cram it down their throats. You can chose to believe in Him or you can reject Him. That is up to you. You have a free will to choose to believe or not.

How do I know this is the right one; because for 30 years, God has never let me down. I have had 30 years of experience, if I was a lawyer, or an electrician that would impress you and cause you to trust me.

I hope you make the right decision. It is yours to make. I have done my job and the rest is up to you.

wado

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Originally Posted by margog85

Well, Tsila, I did read your answers. You seem somewhat aggravated with me for not 'getting it', which I don't really understand. Maybe all of this is clear as day to you, but it's not to me.
I understand that YOU have faith, and that OTHERS have faith, and I know what faith IS, but I still can't grasp it myself and really get a good grip on HOW that kind of faith is possible.

If I didn't really want an answer, I wouldn't have asked the question, read the responses, and responded to them. So don't ask silly questions like that, obviously I'm trying to figure it out. When you ask a question like that, it comes off as condescending. Not trying to argue, just pointing it out in case you didn't realize or intend it to sound that way.

And I'm not asking for 'proof' of faith, whatever that means- What I'm interested in the thought process behind coming to faith in something- how to narrow it all down from the vague idea that there's something out there beyond yourself to the specific religious 'truths' that people have. And just saying that 'reading the bible' or 'just trusting' doesn't cut it for me. If that's how it worked for you or for others, that's fine and great for you- but I'm looking for a different kind of answer- something a little more specific.

If you can say that that's a simple process, something that I should have come to a full understanding of within the past week or two since I posted this question, then I have to disagree. People spend their entire lives searching and trying to figure this out- so please don't be hard on me because it's taking me a while to understand.

I'm not asking what faith IS- I know that it's belief in something you can't see but still believe to be true and real- but I don't understand what's behind that faith, how to get to a place where you really can understand what you have faith in, out of all the different options out there, and be confident in it as being 'right'.

If you re-read my question, or maybe read it fully, not just the title, maybe you'd understand better exactly what I'm looking for. I know it's long- but maybe it'd clarify a bit what I was asking for here.

I really don't want to argue, but you're coming off sort of confrontational- and this is not what I was looking for. It wasn't meant to be a cut and dry question, I wasn't just looking for a definition of faith or of what other people believe- I wanted a discussion of how people came to believe what they do... why they do... how they sorted out all the confusion in their heads and came to some sort of peace with whatever beliefs they finally decided were 'right' or 'right' for them...

So forgive me if I'm still discussing it and asking more questions that come to mind- but there's no need to get frustrated with me, though. I'm trying to understand something that is (possibly) much bigger than myself. I think it's normal that it takes some time.

=)

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So, now that Tsila has answered your question/s I believe you have two/ three people who've told you what you wanted to know, what I want to know is have you bin paying attention to them???

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

... faith in things because of fear that is Cred0's opinion due to his limited comprehension of the faith concept.

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If there is anyone of us two with limited comprehension of faith, it is not I...

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Originally Posted by Nestorian

... you say people have "faith" in things simply because of fear?

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No, not only fear. But fear plays a major factor in religious faith and belief.

===

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:rolleyes:

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Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

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Just as you seem to be strictly convinced of your (religious) views, I am strictly convinced of my Secular Humanistic views.
I guess the chance that you ever become an Atheist is higher than the one of I ever becoming a theist.

Unlike you I do not suggest any time line for you. I respect your views. From me you are allowed to believe in mythical based subjective supported wild claims. No problem at all.
Don't forget that Pascal's wager has been found invalid a long time ago...

:rolleyes:

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Quote:

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Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

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I agree and I hope so too for poor Cred...

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

I agree and i hope so too for poor Cred...

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Only I am not "poor" Cred. Neither in financial nor in philosophical terms !
I'm a skeptic Secular Humanist who does not require mythical wild claims to guide his life !

:D

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Only I am not "poor" Cred. Neither in financial nor in philosophical terms !
I'm a skeptic Secular Humanist who does not require mythical wild claims to guide his life !

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Isn't too bad that some folks are so in need of the supernatural to hve meaning in their lives?



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WVHiflyer : indeed : people are - as far as I am concerned - allowed to believe whatever they prefer !

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

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Matthew 13:15
For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes—so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’

2 Corinthians 3:14
But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.

Ephesians 1:18
I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.



LORD, if you are willing...

Good ol' savesinner, always got the good verses! :) I'm sure that God is trying. But all depends on the one concerned...