Ask Me Help Desk - Scripture is the standard?

I want to call attention to something.

Jesus did NOT use tradition in His teaching. Everything He taught was based in the Law and Prophets, all written down. In fact, Jesus did not present anything that was outside of the Law and Prophets.

God has provided us with WRITINGS for our guidance. When you move outside of that, then man's ideas can be substituted, and after a time become accpted simply because the idea is of long standing.

It makes no difference when an idea was presented, if it does not agree with what God has inspired, it is wrong, and therefore dangerous.

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Originally Posted by galveston

I believe you have misunderstood me. What I''m saying is that all instruction must be solidly based on Scripture.

Why would that eliminate Sunday School, etc.?

How much creative teaching is being done that misrepresents or causes misunderstanding of what the Scriptures actually say? Were the shepherds and Wise Men at the manger at the same time? I bet 85-90% of Christians believe so (but they weren't). Does a day in Genesis 1 mean a 24-hour period? Some Christian teachers/pastors believe yes, and others no. Are there mistakes in the Bible? Some SS teachers/pastors say yes, others no.

Sit in on several SS classes or adult Bible studies at a Christian church not in your denomination and let me know what you find out.

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Originally Posted by galveston

I want to call attention to something.

Jesus did NOT use tradition in His teaching. Everything He taught was based in the Law and Prophets, all written down. In fact, Jesus did not present anything that was outside of the Law and Prophets.

God has provided us with WRITINGS for our guidance. When you move outside of that, then man's ideas can be substituted, and after a time become accpted simply because the idea is of long standing.

It makes no difference when an idea was presented, if it does not agree with what God has inspired, it is wrong, and therefore dangerous.

Absolutely. Anytime that Jesus was in a discussion on doctrine and needed to validate a point of doctrine, He referred to the scriptures - never to tradition.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

How much creative teaching is being done that misrepresents or causes misunderstanding of what the Scriptures actually say?

What you are arguing against here is the same concern that I have. People who go outside of what the Bible teaches by adding to or altering what the word says. That is the problem with denominational tradition that others on here are defending.

But if you are suggesting that every Sunday School and Bible Study in the country is doing that, then I would suggest that you need to do more research. No doubt many are, and they are at error if they do, but just because they teach error is no reason for the rest of us to blindly follow them.

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Originally Posted by galveston

Jesus did NOT use tradition in His teaching.

Notice I am not red tagging you! Rathering edify (Romans 14:9)

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

And we are commanded to withdraw ourselves from any that are not after those which were received by them.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

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Originally Posted by galveston

Everything He taught was based in the Law and Prophets, all written down. In fact, Jesus did not present anything that was outside of the Law and Prophets.

Christ did establish the law. Christ suffered to the law in doing everything that was HIS Father's wilt. Christ fulfilled all that HIS Father sent HIM to do.

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Example: Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Notice that this tradition (Unlike the denominational traditions which we see promoted on this thread) were taught in two different forms, oral and written. Since the Apostles are no longer here, we are left with the written only.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

What you are arguing against here is the same concern that I have. people who go outside of what the Bible teaches by adding to or altering waht the word says. That is the problem with denominational tradition that others on here are defending.

No, they aren't going outside of what the Bible teaches. They teach what they sincerely believe the Bible teaches yet don't agree with what someone else says the Bible teaches. So go to the Bible and let the Bible support itself by whose understanding and interpretation?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Notice that this tradition (Unlike the denominational traditions which we see promoted on this thread) were taught in two different forms, oral and written. Since the Apostles are no longer here, we are left with the written only.

And I absolutely agree with you on that... And have insisted that we recognize that we can not fall to added traditions (or) to change any that were written.

I have mentioned twice that man's traditions were spoken of as leaven which rises up within the teaching, and Christ himself warned us of this fact. (Matthew 16:6 16:12)

So today we want to be unleaven and purged the conscience from false traditions and false doctrine.

1 Cr 5:7-8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, they aren't going outside of what the Bible teaches. They teach what they sincerely believe the Bible teaches yet don't agree with what someone else says the Bible teaches. So go to the Bible and let the Bible support itself by whose understanding and interpretation?

WG,

You are being inconsistent. Here is what you said (and I quote from post 242):

"How much creative teaching is being done that misrepresents or causes misunderstanding of what the Scriptures actually say?"

Your premise was that they did mis-represent what the Bible said, and thus went outside of what the Bible said.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Your premise was that they did mis-represent what the Bible said, and thus went outside of what the Bible said.

Misrepresent from your pov.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Misrepresent from your pov.

Your words, WG - look back at post 242.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Your words, WG - look back at post 242.

I KNOW what I wrote. I figured it probably won't agree with your interpretation, so you will consider it as misrepresenting and incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I KNOW what I wrote. I figured it probably won't agree with your interpretation, so you will consider it as misrepresenting and incorrect.

You apparently THINK you know what you wrote. I said nothing about you mis-representing anything - you said that the SS teachers mis-represent.

Maybe if you stop trying to throw stones at me, and attack me, and stop, calm down go back and read what you wrote, things may become clear to you.

Let me quote your entire post:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

How much creative teaching is being done that misrepresents or causes misunderstanding of what the Scriptures actually say? Were the shepherds and Wise Men at the manger at the same time? I bet 85-90% of Christians believe so (but they weren't). Does a day in Genesis 1 mean a 24-hour period? Some Christian teachers/pastors believe yes, and others no. Are there mistakes in the Bible? Some SS teachers/pastors say yes, others no.

Sit in on several SS classes or adult Bible studies at a Christian church not in your denomination and let me know what you find out.

I added the colour and the bold to make it easier to see what you actually wrote. If you don't believe that it is a quote, click that little blue arrow after your name in the quote box and it will take you right to YOUR original post.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You apparently THINK you know what you wrote. I said nothing about you mis-representing anything - you said that the SS teachers mis-represent.

Maybe if you stop trying to throw stones at me, and attack me, and stop, calm down go back and read what you wrote, things may become clear to you.

Let me quote your entire post:

You are having trouble understanding what I wrote. Yes, there are SS teachers who misrepresent what the Bible says. But by whose standard of what the Bible says? They think they are correct. You may agree with them. According to you, we here misrepresent what the Bible says.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You are having trouble understanding what I wrote. Yes, there are SS teachers who misrepresent what the Bible says.

And that is exactly what I was referring to - it appears you are having difficulty understanding what is being said. If you take the time to discuss instead of picking of stones to toss because you don't agree with, or don't like the person, so many mis-understandings like this will never even happen. I'll be honest - I do not understand why some folk just decide to turn nasty when others disagree. Why can't we just discuss respectfully?

Now, to carry on with the discussion:

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But by whose standard of what the Bible says? They think they are correct.

People can be sincere and sincerely mistaken. Open the Bible and let's see what it says. You don't need a "standard" to read what it says, with the possible exception of a basic understanding of the English language and a dictionary if you struggle with word meanings. If there are more difficult passages, picking up a lexicon for Greek or hebrew may also be necessary, or further study into what the Bible says elsewhere on the same topic.

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You may agree with them. According to you, we here misrepresent what the Bible says.

Here we go again - I did not say that - you claimed that I said it.

This is where mis-understandings occur - when someone refuses to read what was actually said.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

why some folk just decide to turn nasty when others disagree. Why can't we just discuss respectfully?

Are you referring to me as "nasty"? I'm simply talking about people who have decided the Bible is to be interpreted in one way which happens to be different from the way another person would interpret it. It happens all the time, even here.

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People can be sincere and sincerely mistaken.

So who is correct?

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Here we go again - I did not say that - you claimed that I said it.

*chuckle*

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This is where mis-understandings occur - when someone refuses to read what was actually said.

I so glad you admit that. So true, so true.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Are you referring to me as "nasty"? I'm simply talking about people who have decided the Bible is to be interpreted in one way which happens to be different from the way another person would interpret it. It happens all the time, even here.

Yes, it does, and by making accusations about me, you contributed to that. It is important to read what is said, and to respond to the topic.

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So who is correct?

That is where it is important for people to put aside their theological systems and beliefs and sit down and look at what the Bible actually says. The key issue here is that far too often people do not wish to submit themselves to God's word, but follow their own theological system and forcefit scripture, or they bend scripture to fit the theological system of their church or denomination (and we see a great deal of that on here with some folk demanding the everyone else submit to their denomination.

It can be painful for people to admit that it is God and God's word that we must submit to, and to put aside our own beliefs, but that is what must be done.

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So true, so true.

I hope that in the future you will take the time to actually read what you said and what I said before claiming otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It can be painful for people to admit that it is God and God's word that we must submit to, and to put aside our own beliefs, but that is what must be done.

Then why do no two ***ADDED sola scriptura*** Christians believe exactly the same thing?

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I hope that in the future you will take the time to actually read what you said and what I said before claiming otherwise.

Yes, I hope you will understand what I write as well as you understand the Bible.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

And I absolutely agree with you on that... And have insisted that we recognize that we can not fall to added traditions (or) to change any that were written.

There’s a problem here. If we aren’t to rely on any traditions or any teachings outside of the Bible, then Christ is not King. We don’t have a messiah who is both man and God. We don’t have a Holy Spirit. We are simply left with the Old Testament and a new story about a nice guy who came along and was both loving and kind to the poor.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

I have mentioned twice that man's traditions were spoken of as leaven which rises up within the teaching, and Christ himself warned us of this fact. (Matthew 16:6 16:12)

There were many things Christ said which refer to writings that are no longer in existence. Do God’s words fade and go out of vogue?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

So today we want to be unleavened and purged the conscience from false traditions and false doctrine.

To Interpret Holy Scripture, each deciding individually what authority to give Scripture, bends the will of God conforming to your own fallible and subjective will, i.e. placing God in a box. In so doing God must conform to your will. I’m sure that’s not what you intend to do with the tenets of Sola Scriptura, but that is the net effect.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Then why do no two Christians believe exactly the same thing?

First, I disagree with your premise. I know many Christians who are in concert with each other.

Now, if you say why don't all Christians agree on areas of speculation or areas where the Bible is silent - that is simply because those areas are matters of opinion and if scripture has not commented on those areas, they are not essentials and are areas which are not doctrinal.

The other problem is as I stated in my last message, and that is when people place their own beliefs and theological system or indeed the teachings of their denomination above scripture. Or in cases where they or theior denomination adds to, subtracts from or alters scripture. In such cases they have altered the standard from being scripture alone and have put man in a position of judgment over God's word.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

There’s a problem here. If we aren’t to rely on any traditions or any teachings outside of the Bible, then Christ is not King.

So, you say that if we don't add manmade doctrines to God's word, that we deny Jesus? Wow. That is quite a claim. I do agree that I may be denying the jesus made up by whoever added their manmade teachings, but I will be submitting myself to the true Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

First, I disagree with your premise. I know many Christians who are in concert with each other.

I added "sola scriptura" while you were penning your answer. Sola scriptura Christians. Although it's very possible there are not two Christians who agree on everything.

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In such cases they have altered the standard from being scripture alone and have put man in a position of judgment over God's word.

Well, it's mankind who reads and interprets/understands it. There is no way to get around that.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I added "sola scriptura" while you were penning your answer. Sola scriptura Christians. Although it's very possible there are not two Christians who agree on everything.

My response remains.

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Well, it's mankind who reads and interprets/understands it. There is no way to get around that.

We can get around the "interprets" part. This false belief that we cannot avoid interpretation is a key part of the problem with doctrinal differences. Because once you say that (contrary to what scripture itself says), then someone will step forward and say that only they or only their church can interpret scripture rightly. Then it is downhill from there.

Tj:

Do answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Then why do no two ***ADDED sola scriptura*** Christians believe exactly the same thing?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Tj:

Do answer the question.

Joe,

Do read my answer which was already posted.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

My response remains.

Do you belong to a church? If you ask ten members in it to list their beliefs re ten topics, I'm betting you will find differences.

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We can get around the "interprets" part. This false belief that we cannot avoid interpretation is a key part of the problem with doctrinal differences.

So which church understands the Bible as it should be understood?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

My response remains.

Your response?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We can get around the "interprets" part. This false belief that we cannot avoid interpretation is a key part of the problem with doctrinal differences. Because once you say that (contrary to what scripture itself says), then someone will step forward and say that only they or only their church can interpret scripture rightly. then it is downhill from there.

What you've said here is to ignor interpretation and just believe as TJ tells you to.

That's downhill for sure!

JoeT

PEOPLE,YE ARE WREAKING MY HEAD!
And yes I'm shouting.

Come as little children.come with the faith and hearts of little children. No amount of argueing will make GOD or anyone answer your questions.

Be still and know I am GOD.

Listen.

Hear.

Know.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

We can get around the "interprets" part. This false belief that we cannot avoid interpretation is a key part of the problem with doctrinal differences. Because once you say that (contrary to what scripture itself says), then someone will step forward and say that only they or only their church can interpret scripture rightly. then it is downhill from there.

What you've said here is to ignor interpretation and just beleive as TJ tells you to.

That's downhill for sure!

Sorry - I missed mentioning when people feel that they must turn on anyone who dares disagree with them. That is not a doctrinal issue but a behavioural issue, but it can become a doctrinal issue because people who decide to make a doctrinal discussion a personal issue typically do so as a way to force people into accepting their (pr their denomination's) private interpretation.

Thanks for giving such an excellent demonstration by your own behaviour.

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Sorry - I missed mentioning when people feel that they must turn on anyone who dares disagree with them. That is not a doctrinal issue but a behavioural issue, but it can become a doctrinal issue because people who decide to make a doctrinal discussion a personal issue typically do so as a way to force people into accepting their (pr their denomination's) private interpretation.

Does anyone else notice that Tom just described himself to a Tee? Interesting that he can't see it in himself.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Does anyone else notice that Tom just described himself to a Tee? Interesting that he can't see it in himself.

Alty,

Have you come to make personal demeaning comments or come to contribute to the discussion?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Alty,

Have you come to make personal demeaning comments or come to contribute to the discussion?

Just pointing out the obvious Tom. Why do you find it demeaning?

The truth does hurt at times, but it will set you free.

As for the discussion, I'm just watching, reading, taking it all in. That is allowed, nes pas?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Just pointing out the obvious Tom. Why do you find it demeaning?

The truth does hurt at times, but it will set you free.

Because, Alty, I am trying to discuss the topic, and you and a few others on this site take it upon themselves to turn everything into a personal dispute, which results in abuse and subsequently each thread where that happens gets shut down.

Truth is one thing, abuse is something else. You have not given us truth, you have simply continued what you do on every thread where you find me, you come on and start trouble.

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As for the discussion, I'm just watching, reading, taking it all in. That is allowed, nes pas?

Watching is allowed. Constructive, respectful discussion is allowed, but as you ought to know, abusive comments are not.

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Because, Alty, I am trying to discuss the topic, and you and a few others on this site take it upon themselves to turn everything into a personal dispute, which results in abuse and subsequently each thread where that happens gets shut down.

Tom, don't you find it odd that to you everyone is turning it into a personal dispute, but you are completely innocent? Really, that should be a clue.

As for threads getting shut down. Well Tom, it is my understanding that when you feel threatened you report the thread and then it's shut down. There's nothing I can do about that, it's all on you.

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Watching is allowed. Constructive, respectful discussion is allowed, but as you ought to know, abusive comments are not.

So now the truth is abusive? Since when?

Also, constructive respectful discussion, come on Tom, you can't tell someone else to do something you are unwilling to do.

I'm done. I've said my peace. Something tells me you'll come back with more though. In fact, I'd bet on it.

Bye now.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, don't you find it odd that to you everyone is turning it into a personal dispute, but you are completely innocent? Really, that should be a clue.

No, Alty, not everyone - there are a few people who seem unable to accept disagreement.

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As for threads getting shut down. Well Tom, it is my understanding that when you feel threatened you report the thread and then it's shut down. There's nothing I can do about that, it's all on you.

Alty, I only report abuse. If there was no abuse, no mod would shut down the thread. If you are finding that after you post abuse, threads get shut, don't blame it on others.

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So now the truth is abusive? Since when?

The truth isn't. False accusations and turning a thread in a personal attack session is abusive. And I have yet to see you contribute anything to the discussion.

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I'm done. I've said my peace.

Time will tell.

Now, hopefully Alty will keep her personal comments at bay so that the discussion can continue.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Do you belong to a church? If you ask ten members in it to list their beliefs re ten topics, I'm betting you will find differences.

Are you referring to people who hold solely to scripture as their standard of truth? Or just picking attendees at random?

If the latter, you will certainly find differences because there is no guarantee that all these people are saved, or that they hold to scripture as their sole standard. I once belonged to a church where one of the deacons denied that there was any need of acknowledging essentials. So in cases like that, we certainly will find differences.

Amongst those in the former category? I can state for a fact that you will find few if any difference amongst the vast majority who hold to the Bible as the sole standard of truth in doctrine. I have spoken to enough Christians to know this to be true.

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So which church understands the Bible as it should be understood?

If you are looking for a denomination to be always right, then you are looking to men. I would not recommend a denomination as the standard. I recommend God's word.

Look for a church whose leadership is submitted to God's word as the sole standard of truth in doctrine, and do not force scripture to bend to their beliefs and theological system, but are willing to have their beliefs bent by the words of scripture.

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Now, hopefully Alty will keep her personal comments at bay so that the discussion can continue.

And the demeaning personal comments continue on Toms part. You just can't let it go, can you Tom?

You have proven my point.

On that note.

Happy Easter everyone, have a wonderful weekend. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

And the demeaning personal comments continue on Toms part. You just can't let it go, can you Tom?

Alty,

You promised to stop. I went back to the discussion - who is that cannot let it drop? You are just continuing to disrupt the thread.

And Happy Easter to you too Tom. :)

Let's try one more time and see if Alty will let the thread continue without disruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Do you belong to a church? If you ask ten members in it to list their beliefs re ten topics, I'm betting you will find differences.

Are you referring to people who hold solely to scripture as their standard of truth? Or just picking attendees at random?

If the latter, you will certainly find differences because there is no guarantee that all these people are saved, or that they hold to scripture as their sole standard. I once belonged to a church where one of the deacons denied that there was any need of acknowledging essentials. So in cases like that, we certainly will find differences.

Amongst those in the former category? I can state for a fact that you will find few if any difference amongst the vast majority who hold to the Bible as the sole standard of truth in doctrine. I have spoken to enough Christians to know this to be true.

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So which church understands the Bible as it should be understood?

If you are looking for a denomination to be always right, then you are looking to men. I would not recommend a denomination as the standard. I recommend God's word.

Look for a church whose leadership is submitted to God's word as the sole standard of truth in doctrine, and do not force scripture to bend to their beliefs and theological system, but are willing to have their beliefs bent by the words of scripture.