Ask Me Help Desk - What biblical support is there for asking saints to pray for us?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's horrible!! Jesus talked with a dead-in-the-flesh saint!!!! What an example to all Christians!

Where do you see a problem with Jesus in His glorified state as God talking to dead in the flesh saints? Are you suggesting that God cannot do so?

Why do you avoid my questions?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yes, they did, they spoke to Jesus while He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.

Whether they are aware of us or not is not the question (though this verse does not state that they are aware), but rather whether we are to be communicating with those who are dead in the flesh.

Is it your view of the Transfiguration that Jesus stopped being human while in his transfigured state? Did he jettison his human nature for a time on Mt. Tabor?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Is it your view of the Transfiguration that Jesus stopped being human while in his transfigured state? Did he jettison his human nature for a time on Mt. Tabor?

Where did I say that? I said that He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Where did I say that? I said that He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.

So He was also the human Jesus talking with a dead-in-the-flesh saint.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Where did I say that? I said that He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.

I didn't say that you did. I was asking.

If Jesus was a human being while speaking to the dead on Mt. Tabor, then, glorified state notwithstanding, he was a living human being speaking to the dead. So then it must be okay for us (living human beings) to speak to the dead. In doing so, we are imitating Christ.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So He was also the human Jesus talking with a dead-in-the-flesh saint.

Tell you what, I will agree that all who are both man and God can legitimately speak with the dead when they transfigure into their glorified state as God.

Now, how many people would that include?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I didn't say that you did. I was asking.

Good. Because I never did.

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If Jesus was a human being while speaking to the dead on Mt. Tabor, then, glorified state notwithstanding,.

So you think that His glorified state is of no significance? You think that when Jesus humbled Himself to give up His glory as God, that meant nothing?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Tell you what, I will agree that all who are both man and God can legitimately speak with the dead when they transfigure into their glorified state as God.

Now, how many people would that include?

So we are not to imitate Christ in all things? Are we to pick those respects in which we follow Christ's example? If speaking to the dead was good enough for Christ, it ought to be good enough for us.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So you think that His glorified state is of no significance? You think that when Jesus humbled Himself to give up His glory as God, that meant nothing?

Aren't the saints in heaven experiencing glory now?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

So we are not to imitate Christ in all things?

You meant like claiming to be God? Claiming to have the name above all names? Claiming to be the "I AM"?

No, there are some things where we must submit ourselves to Jesus as God, and not claim to be God. It is Jesus alone who can claim equality with God because He is God.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Aren't the saints in heaven experiencing glory now?

As God?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Good. Because I never did.

So you think that His glorified state is of no significance? You think that when Jesus humbled Himself to give up His glory as God, that meant nothing?

I think that if talking to dead-in-the-flesh saints (to borrow Wondergirl's expression) was good enough for Christ (glorified or otherwise) then it ought to be good enough for us. I think that Christ led an exemplary life, and so we are to take him as our example in all things and imitate him in our lives. Christ talked to dead-in-the-flesh saints. Why don't you?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You meant like claiming to be God? Claiming to have the name above all names? Claiming to be the "I AM"?

How cleverly you misunderstand.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

As God?

Did I say that?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

How cleverly you misunderstand.

I understood perfectly. It is clear that there is differences between us and Jesus, and ignoring those differences will lead us into error not truth.

I note that you are still avoiding my questions. Perhaps they were two uncomfortable for you. I understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

I think that if talking to dead-in-the-flesh saints (to borrow Wondergirl's expression) was good enough for Christ (glorified or otherwise) then it ought to be good enough for us. I think that Christ led an exemplary life, and so we are to take him as our example in all things and imitate him in our lives. Christ talked to dead-in-the-flesh saints. Why don't you?

I note that you completely avoided my question. I understand why.

sndbay,
Yes, (That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ. )
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I understood perfectly. It is clear that there is differences between us and Jesus, and ignoring those differences will lead us into error not truth.

The imitation of Christ misunderstanding.

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I note that you are still avoiding my questions. Perhaps they were two uncomfortable for you. I understand.

You're darn good at it too. I also understand.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You meant like claiming to be God? Claiming to have the name above all names? Claiming to be the "I AM"?

No. That would be blasphemy. Christ didn't blaspheme and so neither should we.

Are you taking the position that you would rather adhere to the letter of the Law (as you understand it) than do as your Savior has done?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

No. That would be blasphemy. Christ didn't blaspheme and so neither should we.

So there are things that Jesus did that we are not to do, nor able to do.

We agree.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The imitation of Christ misunderstanding.

You're darn good at it too. I also understand.

Cannot avoid personal cracks, can you. Is this thread doomed to go down the abuse road like so many others, or can we keep it on topic?

Are you planning to answer my questions or continue to avoid them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

So there are things that Jesus did that we are not to do, nor able to do.

We agree.

If we are unable to do something that Christ did, then the question of imitating him in those ways is obviously off the table.

But we are to imitate Christ wherever we can. Christ didn't blaspheme and so neither should we. Christ didn't lie, and so neither should we. It would be a lie for me to say that I cam God, etc. since I am not.

Christ spoke to the dead-in-the-flesh saints. Why don't you?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Cannot avoid personal cracks, can you. Is this thread doomed to go down the abuse road like so many others, or can we keep it on topic?

I was merely echoing you.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I was merely echoing you.

No, I was asking about your avoidance of my question - that was referring to your apparently refusal to answer them. You then took a personal crack at me.

Once again, are you able to stay on track, or should this thread be shut down before it degenerates further?

You made a big deal when you THOUGHT that I had not answered your questions because you missed what I had already posted, but when I ask you to answer mine, you cannot afford me the same courtesy.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

No, I was asking about your avoidance of my question - that was referring to your apparently refusal to answer them. You then took a personal crack at me.

You had said, "I note that you are still avoiding my questions. Perhaps they were two uncomfortable for you. I understand." so I responded in kind, "You're darn good at it too. I also understand."

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Originally Posted by Tj3

No, I was asking about your avoidance of my question - that was referring to your apparently refusal to answer them. You then took a personal crack at me.

Once again, are you able to stay on track, or should this thread be shut down before it degenerates further?

You made a big deal when you THOUGHT that I had not answered your questions because you missed what I had already posted, but when I ask you to answer mine, you cannot afford me the same courtesy.

How about if you answer the question I've asked you several times?

Jesus, as a living human being, spoke to dead-in-the-flesh saints. You do not. Why do you prefer to adhere to the letter of the Law (as you understand it) than to imitate Christ and follow him in his ways?

Akoue
That is a good question.
Let me know if Tj3 ever answers it.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Akoue

How about if you answer the question I've asked you several times?

I have answered each of your questions.

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Jesus, as a living human being, spoke to dead-in-the-flesh saints.

When He figured transfigured into His glorified state as God.

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You do not. Why do you prefer to adhere to the letter of the Law (as you understand it) than to imitate Christ and follow him in his ways?

So, you are asking me why I don't do what God says is an abomination, in favour of trying to exalt myself as God and imitate what belongs to God alone?

It is because God when He says that it is an abomination for us to speak to the dead in the flesh. If you believe that we should ignore God's word, then please show me where we are exhorted to speak to those who are dead in the flesh.

Tj3,
God never said that in Holy Scripture.
Your are misinterpreting that passage.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
God never said that in Holy Scripture.
Your are misinterpreting that passage.
Fred

Never said what Fred?

BTW, the topic of this thread is "What Biblical Support is there for asking the saints to pray for us?"

So far none has been posted. If none can be found after 269 posts, then I think that says a great deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Never said what Fred?

BTW, the topic of this thread is "What Biblical Support is there for asking the saints to pray for us?"

So far none has been posted.

There's no explicit mention in the Bible of the Trinity either.

I doubted at the beginning of this thread. Upon reading this thread, I'm much closer to being convinced there is Biblical support for asking not only earthly but also heavenly saints for intercessory prayers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

There's no explicit mention in the Bible of the Trinity either.

The trinity is clearly spoken of from Genesis through to Revelation.

Nowhere do we find any promotion of speaking to the dead.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I have answered each of your questions.

Then I'm sure you'll be more than happy to copy your answer or indicate the post #.

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When He figured transfigured into His glorified state as God.

And this changes what, exactly? It was a human being speaking to dead-in-the-flesh saints. You have agreed that Christ did not cease being human on Mt. Tabor. When he rejoined the Apostles after the Transfiguration he certainly didn't caution them against speaking to dead-in-the-flesh saints. So there is no reason to suppose that we are not to do likewise.

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So, you are asking me why I don't do what God says is an abomination, in favour of trying to exalt myself as God and imitate what belongs to God alone?

I am asking you what I have asked you: Why do you prefer the letter of the Law (as you understand it) to the example set by your Savior? Do you have the same scruples about trimming your fore-locks (this too is said to be an abomination)? Do you have the same scruples about sitting in the same chair in which a menstruating woman has sat (this too is said to be an abomination)? Youo have chosen to be quite legalistic about this issue and I am interested to know why, why do you prefer the letter of the law (as you understand it... I say this because, like others, I think you have misunderstood Dt.18) to the example your Savior has set for you?

Nowhere does it say that what Christ did on Mt. Tabor, i.e. speaking to dead-in-the-flesh saints "belongs to God alone". To suggest otherwise is to add to the Scripture what isn't contained therein.

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It is because God when He says that it is an abomination for us to speak to the dead in the flesh.

See my above question: Why do you favor legalism over the example of your Savior and trust in him to keep his promises?

You seem to have a very un-Christian view of death. Christ conquered death. Death hadn't yet been conquered when Dt. Was written. The phenomenon of "deadness" as understood in Dt. Has been transformed by Christ. Why do you cling so doggedly to an un-Christian view of death? This is something I would have expected from an atheist, not from someone who so loudly professes to be a Christian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

The trinity is clearly spoken of from Genesis through to Revelation.

Nowhere do we find any promotion of speaking to the dead.

Please provide the verse citation. In what verse do we read that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three hypostases? Where does it say that they are homoousios? Shoot, what verse says that they are three Persons but one God? This is what the doctrine of the Trinity says. What verse of Scripture says this?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Then I'm sure you'll be more than happy to copy your answer or indicate the post #.

Why? I just answered again.

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And this changes what, exactly? It was a human being speaking to dead-in-the-flesh saints.

So do you deny that Jesus was both God and Man?

Do you say that being transfigured into His glorified state as God makes no difference?

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I am asking you what I have asked you: Why do you prefer the letter of the Law (as you understand it) to the example set by your Savior?

Why do you mis-represent me? I never said that I did.

Are you telling us that Jesus did away with the law?

Or did he fulfill the law?

Does scripture tell us that we can do whatever we please? Or does it say that we are to abide by the spirit of the law?

I'd be most interested to hear your answers if you dare to answer my questions.

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You seem to have a very un-Christian view of death. Christ conquered death. Death hadn't yet been conquered when Dt. Was written.

So do you say that the Bible erred when it says that God never changes?

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The phenomenon of "deadness" as understood in Dt. Has been transformed by Christ. Why do you cling so doggedly to an un-Christian view of death? This is something I would have expected from an atheist, not from someone who so loudly professes to be a Christian.

I am disturbed to hear that you view scripture, and the understanding of death held by Christians throughout the centuries as "Un-Christian"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Please provide the verse citation. In what verse do we read that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three hypostases? Where does it say that they are homoousios? Shoot, what verse says that they are three Persons but one God? This is what the doctrine of the Trinity says. What verse of Scripture says this?

When you started that last time, I suggested that you start another thread because, as I am sure you know, studying the nature of God as presented from Genesis through to Revelation is something many books have been written to summarize.

But if you are suggesting that the trinity is not scriptural, that is a very interesting revelation in and of itself. Or maybe you just wish to distract from the topic at hand and the fact that nowhere in scripture is there any Biblical support for speaking to those who are dead in the flesh.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But if you are suggesting that the trinity is not scriptural, that is a very interesting revelation in and of itself. Or maybe you just wish to distract from the topic at hand.

I had used the word "explicit". There is no explicit statement in the Bible of Trinity. All understanding and explanation of Trinity-ness is by extrapolation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I had used the word "explicit". There is no explicit statement in the Bible of Trinity. All understanding and explanation of Trinity-ness is by extrapolation.

The trinity is explicitly clear. And, I might add, nowhere does scripture says that the trinity is an "abomination".

Yet that is exactly the case with respect to the believe in speaking to the dead in the flesh.

Can we focus on the topic?

I note that you are still avoiding my questions.

Tj3,
I saw quite a bit here on that subject and I am now convinced that asking the saints to pray for us is OK.
To bad you could not see that evidence.
Of course I suspected that YOU would not see anything that goes against what you believe.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

The trinity is explicitly clear.

But not explicitedly stated as such.

And so go the dead in the flesh who are now alive in spirit in heaven.