After Noah, the linage of Christ was lost due to the linage of Cain. We "ALL" have that DNA to some extent or another. Not as the white sepremist try to push-that they are the true lineage of Adam. Let me make that perfectly clear. That is a lie.
That is the sole reason for the virgin birth. The Christ child was of GOD's lineage and GOD's only. God only used the virgin to carry the child. The human DNA had been corruped. That is the original sin, the fall of man. Only Christ can redeem it. GOD's Blood for corrupted blood.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

What makes you think that you're "truth" is the correct path? You haven't studied my beliefs, do you even know what they are? Do you know what being a Deist entails?

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Even IF that was done, your religious truth is just as good as anyone else's truth, as no VALID evidence exist for any particular religious view!!

All one can do is BELIEVE and HOPE that his/her religious view is the truth.

:)

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.

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Originally Posted by asking

Um. Here?

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Too bad that you did not read the whole story of Abraham and his son. You quoted it - read it.

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Originally Posted by asking

Well, according to the Bible, death and sinning entered the world when women were invented by God and then "disobeyed" God's injunction not to eat fruit (which is really interesting given that primates are fruit eaters).

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Really, you should read the Bible and not just go by what someone told you. The Bible nowhere says not to eat fruit and that was not the sin that caused mankind to fall. Rather they wanted to be ask God, following the lie that satan gave them.

Read it!

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

What makes you think that you're "truth" is the correct path?

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I don't. Never have. I submit what I believe to the word of God. It is His truth and His path that is the correct path.

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You haven't studied my beliefs, do you even know what they are? Do you know what being a Deist entails?

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Yes, I do, and you will note that so far I have said very little about it, either positive or negative, other than to agree with you that you follow a different god than I do.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Abraham and Issac became a type (picture) of The Father and Jesus Christ.

God never intended for Abraham to kill Issac, so He didn't "lose His nerve".

To allow Issac to die at that time would have cut of the lineage of Christ, the promised "seed" of Eve.

God doesn't make mistakes and never has to change His plan. It is up to us to ask for understanding, and He will give it to us.

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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by classyT

On the Christian board yesterday, someone made a comment that their truth was different from someone elses truth. Just because we believe something..does it make it truth? How can we know if something is true.? Is there such thing as absolute truth?

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God and Truth are convertible; St. Thomas says, “Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ Summa Prima Q, 15 a5” Consequently we can say that there is an absolute infallible truth.

St. Thomas what is known of God and thus in all cases we can say that it is what is known of truth:

God exists (see Summa Prima Q,2,3). Truth exists.

God is Immutable (see Summa Prima Q,9, 1). Truth is immutable.

God is Eternal. “Now God is His own uniform being; and hence as He is His own essence, so He is His own eternity.” (see Summa Prima Q,10 2). Truth is eternal.

God is Spiritual (see Summa Prima Q,3,3 & 6). “…it follows that there is no accident in God.” Truth is spiritual.

God is not contained in Space, Time or Matter. “It is therefore impossible that in God there should be any potentiality. But every body is in potentiality because the continuous, as such, is divisible to infinity; it is therefore impossible that God should be a body… its animation depends upon some other thing, as our body depends for its animation on the soul. Hence that by which a body becomes animated must be nobler than the body. Therefore it is impossible that God should be a body. “(See Summa Prima Q,3,1). Truth is not constrained by time, location, or the matter it resides in.

God’s law (Divine law) is superior to man’s law. (see PRIMA SECUNDÆ PARTIS Q,91,4) Besides the natural and the human law it was necessary for the directing of human conduct to have a Divine law. And this for four reasons. First, because it is by law that man is directed how to perform his proper acts in view of his last end. And indeed if man were ordained to no other end than that which is proportionate to his natural faculty, there would be no need for man to have any further direction of the part of his reason, besides the natural law and human law which is derived from it. But since man is ordained to an end of eternal happiness which is inproportionate to man's natural faculty, as stated above , therefore it was necessary that, besides the natural and the human law, man should be directed to his end by a law given by God. Truth is superior to man’s law.

After a long discusion St. Augustine concludes God=Truth.

O soul pressed down by the corruptible body, and weighed down by earthly thoughts, many and various; behold and see, if thou canst, that God is truth. For it is written that "God is light;" not in such way as these eyes see, but in such way as the heart sees, when it is said, He is truth [reality]. St. Augustine, On the Trinity, 8,2

We see in the Psalms a dissertation of Truth leading to the same conclusion, God is Truth:

I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments I have not forgotten. Psalm 118:30

And take not thou the word of truth utterly out of my mouth: for in thy words, I have hoped exceedingly. Psalm 118:43 (Truth is from God)

I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are equity: and in thy truth thou hast humbled me. Psalm 118:75 (Truth is humbles our intellect)

All thy statutes are truth: they have persecuted me unjustly, do thou help me. Psalm 118:86 (Truth is dogmatic Truth)

Thy truth unto all generations: thou hast founded the earth, and it continueth. Psalm 118:90 (Truth is eternal)

Thou hast commanded justice thy testimonies: and thy truth exceedingly. Psalm 118:138 (God’s justice is Truth)

Thy justice is justice for ever: and thy law is the truth. Psalm 118:142 (God’s law is Truth)

Thou art near, O Lord: and all thy ways are truth. Psalm 118:151 (God’s ways are Truth)

The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are forever. Psalm 118:160 (God’s words are Truth)

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him.

Thus we can conclude that to know Christ is to know God which is to know the Truth. All of which is convertible from one to the other. Neither precedes the other. Truth is timeless and immutable.

JoeT

Joe, you are trying to prove God with bible scripture. Many of the people on this thread do not view the bible as proof of God's existence. I am one of those people.

You may believe that this is indeed truth, but you haven't proven it.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Even IF that was done, your religious truth is just as good as anyone else's truth, as no VALID evidence exist for any particular religious view !!!

All one can do is BELIEVE and HOPE that his/her religious view is the truth.

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As you BELIEVE and HOPE that there is no God!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Alty,

I know where this lengthy list of so called contradictions and problems exists on internet and that is another timewaster. I used to spend days and weeks refuting these one at a time, but you know it is a complete waste of time. here is why:

- Those who are really interested and care, read the context and in 99% of the cases, refuting these requires no more than to read one verse before or after. A few others requires a bit more reading. Those who care will usual;ly read the context because they are interested.

- Those who are not interested will just keep tossing these out a few at a time to waste the time of those who fall for it.

BTW, this very thing is one of the topics that I speaking on and I plan to use the example that michael posted to show those attending how these verses are taken out of context for this purpose.



We agree. the God that you follow is NOT the God of the Bible. But I hope that some day, you will really open the Bible to read it for what it says, not what websites tell you it says, not what the Catholic Church, or indeed any denomination told you to believe, but what the Bible really says.

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Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill
Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
Trust me I've read before and after both verses extensively...

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Joe, you are trying to prove God with bible scripture. Many of the people on this thread do not view the bible as proof of God's existence. I am one of those people.

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That is because you are not willing to give serious consideration to the validation of scripture.

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Originally Posted by spyderglass

Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not kill
Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
Trust me I've read before and after both verses extensively...

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Good! Now what is your point?

Validation by whom?

Did you not see the quote. About contradictions? The law was given to them in the ten commandments- yet there are contradictory laws written in chapter 22.

Where did you go? Hmmm...

There are many more contradictions as well Spydie.

I always find it amusing that people who believe in the bible also contradict that very book in their everyday lives.

Take for example:

Exodus 20:4,6: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I have yet to go to a church that doesn't have a statue of Jesus on the cross. Isn't that a false idol, a graven image? Yet every church I've been to has one of these statues and sometimes more, and yes, the parish kneels in front of this idol and worships it as if it were God himself.

I really would like someone to explain that to me.

I totally agree Alty, I know a quite a few of the contradictions myself. But I wasn't raised Catholic. I was raised Protestant.
My family is still upset that I'm not a christian. But honestly, you really can't tell the difference between us (until they try to debate with me). I thought about what I truly believed and I found a religion that was my own.

I was raised Lutheran by two wonderful parents who always respected my right to make up my own mind. They wanted me to question things, they wanted me to find my own truth.

So, no, I don't believe in the bible, or organized religion, but I do believe in God. I'm a Deist, a very happy Deist. :)

And I believe in a god, and a goddess. But if your'e happy, I'm happy!

I guess we're both happy then. :)

We should get back to the topic. Sorry ClassyT, didn't mean to stray off topic. Forgive me? :)

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

God and Truth are convertible

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That is what you and others BELIEVE Joe !

The linguistic meaning of the word truth lies clearly in the domain of REALITY.
A light is red or it is green. A person is somewhere or is not . A kilo feathers require more space than a kilo lead. (etc.)

In religion the word "truth" is however used as some misplaced format of "proof" for unsupported wild claims : without any OSE religious claims are suggested to be "true".

So the real (linguistic) truth is NOT convertible with the unreal religious "truth".

That "St. Thomas" claimed that does not provide a single iota of support for your statement.

Conclusion : God and Truth are NOT convertible

:)

.

.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

God never intended for Abraham to kill Issac, so He didn't "lose His nerve".

To allow Issac to die at that time would have cut of the lineage of Christ, the promised "seed" of Eve.

God doesn't make mistakes and never has to change His plan. It is up to us to ask for understanding, and He will give it to us.

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First you say that Bible represents Infallible Truth; now you tell me God Didn't Mean What He Said. How can you know what He was Thinking at the moment he told Abraham to kill his son? You either take Him at His Word, or you don't.

Also, was Isaac in on the pretense? Did He know he was not really going to be sacrificed and burnt as an offering to God?

Did Abraham know that God Didn't Mean It?

Unless, you can show they just went through the motions to indulge God's Whim, and that they knew all along that Isaac wouldn't have to be killed, then it's cruel. If father and son acted in good faith and in obedience to God's will, which I THINK is the point of the story, then God's demand is cruel. And I think obeying even the most unreasonable demands is also the point of the story, which is that True obedience means no exceptions and no questioning no matter what. Right?

The fact that in the end Isaac doesn't get killed is simply a way of making the story more palatable. It's a wuss ending to a tale of psychological cruelty. Killing one's own child goes against every instinct a healthy person has to preserve and care for his children. In real life, a person who is willing to violate that principle (even if they don't follow through) is considered mentally deranged. If my neighbor did what Abraham did, the whole neighborhood would be on the phone to child protective services. And if he claimed God told him to do it, he'd be inside a mental health facility in an hour.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Joe, you are trying to prove God with bible scripture. Many of the people on this thread do not view the bible as proof of God's existence. I am one of those people.

You may believe that this is indeed truth, but you haven't proven it.

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Truth functions within the intellect and is the processes of knowing, weighing and dissecting both the essence and the accidents (contingent or nonessential attributes) of anything whatsoever. We know that truth is desirable in knowledge as good is desirable in nature, thus we see truth is convertible with knowledge as good is with nature; “so the true adds relation to the intellect.” Consequently we can see that, in any supposition, that seeking the truth adds weight to the idea that the proposition is good. The greatest of good is found in God's act of intellect, the measure and cause of all things, thus it “follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth.” Since truth mirrors the Divine truth and since God is one, we can conclude that there is one truth and that truth is immutable and eternal. Source:

Actually I found your statement a bit puzzling. The question put forward on this thread is “what is truth”. Not prove God. In any event the proof is in the postulate, God is Truth or Truth is God. God and truth are convertible.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

That is what you and others BELIEVE Joe !

The linguistic meaning of the word truth lies clearly in the domain of REALITY.
A light is red or it is green. A person is somewhere or is not . A kilo feathers require more space than a kilo lead. (etc.)

In religion the word "truth" is however used as some misplaced format of "proof" for unsupported wild claims : without any OSE religious claims are suggested to be "true".

So the real (linguistic) truth is NOT convertible with the unreal religious "truth".

That "St. Thomas" claimed that does not provide a single iota of support for your statement.

Conclusion : God and Truth are NOT convertible .

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So what is truth? Define it.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by spyderglass

Did you not see the quote. About contradictions? The law was given to them in the ten commandments- yet there are contradictory laws written in chapter 22.

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I saw no contradiction.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

There are many more contradictions as well Spydie.

I always find it amusing that people who believe in the bible also contradict that very book in their everyday lives.

Take for example:

Exodus 20:4,6: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I have yet to go to a church that doesn't have a statue of Jesus on the cross. Isn't that a false idol, a graven image? Yet every church I've been to has one of these statues and sometimes more, and yes, the parish kneels in front of this idol and worships it as if it were God himself.

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That is not a contradiction in the Bible. That is a contradiction between the Bible and how a particular church or denomination (in this case Catholic) established their doctrine. This is what I said earlier, the Roman Catholic church does not use the Bible as it only source of doctrine, but uses others which are in many cases contradictory with scripture.

We are in agreement with the fact that the crucifix and especially the worship of the crucifix is contrary to scripture.

Tom, re-read my statement, I said

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I always find it amusing that people who believe in the bible also contradict that very book in their everyday lives.

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in this case I didn't say that the bible is contradicting, but that people who read it are.

As for Spydies statement, yes, it is contradictory. To say that murder is against the rules and then to say that certain people should be killed, well that's contradictory.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, re-read my statement, I said in this case I didn't say that the bible is contradicting, but that people who read it are.

As for Spydies statement, yes, it is contradictory. To say that murder is against the rules and then to say that certain people should be killed, well that's contradictory.

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Not all killing is murder.

To kill someone because you assume she's a witch, well that's murder.

Besides, the bible says "Thou shallt not kill". So all killing is wrong, not just murder.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

To kill someone because you assume she's a witch, well that's murder.

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I missed the word "assume" in the Bible. Can you point out where you saw it?

As to whether it is right or not depends upon the context. It depends upon the context. Keep in mind that Israel was to be the people of God, a priestly nation who was to remain pure, so that they would be essentially God'/s messengers or representatives in the world and the nation through whom the Messiah would enter the world. Nothing is more important than the Messiah because without Him, and without the truth of the gospel, everyone goes to hell for eternity. Scripture speaks of such apostasy as whoredom against God. Not something to be taken lightly.

Further, as we seen the history of Israel, as well any other group, once heresy enters, it dopes not stop with one person, and because of the Holy nature of what Israel as a nation was to be, the danger of such false teaching cannot be overstated.

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Besides, the bible says "Thou shallt not kill". So all killing is wrong, not just murder.

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It says that in some English translations.

Others say:

Ex 20:13
13 "You shall not murder.
NKJV

"Murder" is a more accurate translation.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Nothing is more important than the Messiah because without Him, and without the truth of the gospel, everyone goes to hell for eternity. Scripture speaks of such apostasy as whoredom against God. Not something to be taken lightly.

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Isn't it odd that even those who believe in the Messiah and acknowledge the truth of the gospel make no better world than those who do not acknowledge a messiah and do not lead their lives as per the Bible? Being a christian certainly does not make you a better person than a non-christian.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Isn't it odd that even those who believe in the Messiah and acknowledge the truth of the gospel make no better world than those who do not acknowledge a messiah and do not lead their lives as per the Bible? Being a christian certainly does not make you a better person than a non-christian.

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Often those who profess to be Christians do indeed not follow or submit to God the way that they should, and too often you are right. This agrees with what the Bible says about the fallibility of men and women.

NK,

Unfortunately, we are still human and have that old human nature. I know I have failed as a Christian. Not always but I have. The best advice I have for you is to get your eyes off man and Look at GOD. I know you don't believe in him.. but have you ever reached out for him... just in case?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

To kill someone because you assume she's a witch, well that's murder.

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I missed the word "assume" in the Bible. Can you point out where you saw it?I missed the word "assume" in the Bible. Can you point out where you saw it?

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No need to point that out or provide data on that specific issue.

THOU SHALL NOT KILL - the sixth out of the Ten Commandments. That does NOT require any interpretation !
Exodus 20:13 : Exodus 20:13 (King James Version) Thou shalt not kill. Clear also.
Deuteronomy 5:17 (King James Version) Thou shalt not kill. Clear just as well.

You may personally prefer the word "murder" above "kill" but that is your interpretation.

If "God" (if "God" exists and has the claimed qualities) wanted to make sure that we all clearly understood that "murder" was intended instead of "kill", I am sure that this super-natural omni-scient omni-potent entity had made sure we all would understand "murder" instead of "kill".
As "God" did not do so, the word "kill" is just as valid as the word "murder".
"Murder" is therefore NOT a more accurate translation.

If the bible was written by human beings with best-of-intentions, the same logic applies : if they intended to use the word "murder" they would have done so. I note that this was not done.

So "KILL" is just a VALID human interpretation of the original "word" (whoever wrote these texts !)

THOU SHALL NOT KILL !!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

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Originally Posted by Tj3 and classyT

TJ3 - Often those who profess to be Christians do indeed not follow or submit to God the way that they should ...

clT - Unfortunately, we are still human and have that old human nature.

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That are both clinchers!!

At least some part of all Christians should show a tendency of being "superior" in the moral and ethical departments.

The actual facts are however different. Secular Humanists behave in many respects more moral and ethical than most Christians. You only have to inspect the data on the US penitentionary system for that.

Both clinchers exploded in your own face...

:rolleyes: :p :D :p :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

THOU SHALL NOT KILL - the sixth out of the Ten Commandments. That does NOT require any interpretation !
Exodus 20:13 : Exodus 20:13 (King James Version) Thou shalt not kill. Clear also.
Deuteronomy 5:17 (King James Version) Thou shalt not kill. Clear just as well.

You may personally prefer the word "murder" above "kill" but that is your interpretation.

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You are demonstrating that you know about as much about Hebrew as you do compass needles ;)

Let me fill you in on some things that you may not know.

1) The Bible was originally penned in Hebrew and Koine Greek, not English (this may come as a shocker to you)

2) The original word used in Hebrew gives the sense of murder, not general killing.

3) Some Bibles translate it as murder and some as kill. These tend to be the newer translations because the meanings of English words do vary over time (You may not be aware of this because English is not your first language). The NKJV, CEV, ESV, LITV, and RV for example, all translate it as murder.

You chose the KJV, which is almost 600 years old, and was translated into a form of English which is no longer in common use, and meanings of many words has varied by either small changes or in some cases major changes. In any case, what is most important is what the Bible says in the original language in which it was penned.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

That are both clinchers!!

At least some part of all Christians should show a tendency of being "superior" in the moral and ethical departments.

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Cred,

You do not understand what Christianity is. Christianity is indeed morally superior because it sets a moral standard, but men and women are fallible, and even as Christians we are not better than anyone else - we are only saved sinners. The Apostle Paul himself said:

1 Tim 1:15-17
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
NKJV

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The actual facts are however different. Secular Humanists behave in many respects more moral and ethical than most Christians.

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The difference is that for Christianity, there is a single unmovable standard of morality - for atheist, no such standard exists. That standard will vary by time, culture and geography.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Isn't it odd that even those who believe in the Messiah and acknowledge the truth of the gospel make no better world than those who do not acknowledge a messiah and do not lead their lives as per the Bible? Being a christian certainly does not make you a better person than a non-christian.

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It certainly seems that way. Especially when you can decide either for yourself or in consultation with a well-placed associate when you are murdering someone, and therefore committing a sin, and when merely killing them.

Here's an academic discussion of whether the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not murder."

Thou Shalt Not Murder

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In fact, some distinguished Jewish philosophers believed that "thou shalt not kill" is a perfectly accurate rendering of the sixth commandment. Maimonides, for example, wrote that all cases of killing human beings involve violations of the command, even if the violation happens to be overridden by other mitigating factors. It has been suggested that this tradition underlies the virtual elimination of capital punishment in Rabbinic law.

Viewed from this perspective, we may appreciate that the translation "thou shalt not kill" was not the result of simple ignorance on the side of Jerome or the King James English translators. Rather, it reflects their legitimate determination to reflect accurately the broader range of meanings of the Hebrew root.

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"Murder," of course, is merely illegal killing of humans. So if one decides that the correct translation is "murder," then the Bible is saying only that killing that is illegal is wrong and killing that is not illegal is not wrong--making "Thou shalt not murder" a mere repetition of human law, which of course varies from place to place. This would make God's commandment exceptionally wishy washy and subject to change.

On the other hand, if the correct translation is "Thou shalt not kill," then the Bible indeed contradicts itself and if It is treated as God's True Word, an indication that He has trouble making up His Mind.

Either way, I'm getting the impression He doesn't have very strong objections to killing people, either by His own hand or through the agency of others.

Of course, if you don't take the Bible as the literal truth but only a poetic expression of commonly held beliefs, stories, and learning, then no one has to split hairs like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The difference is that for Christianity, there is a single unmovable standard of morality - for atheist, no such standard exists. That standard will vary by time, culture and geography.

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Tj3 :

As I stated : the proof is in the "eating of the pudding" : The FACTS show us that Christians score lower in the application of their moral and ethical values than Secular Humanists.

I wonder why...

:rolleyes: :p :D :p :rolleyes:

.

.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asking

On the other hand, if the correct translation is "Thou shalt not kill," then the Bible indeed contradicts itself and if It is treated as God's True Word, an indication that He has trouble making up His Mind.

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Note this quote from the article that you posted:

"Indeed, "kill" in English is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. That kind of generalization is expressed in Hebrew through the verb "harag." However, the verb that appears in the Torah's prohibition is a completely different one, " ratsah" which, it would seem, should be rendered "murder." This root refers only to criminal acts of killing."

So the argument is against what the Bible actually says, versus opinions of some people who would prefer to read it as "kill".

I'll stick with the actual text.

BTW, just consider how I could claim that you meant something entirely different by applying alternate meanings to the words that you using other than what definition of the word is, and what the context is. Using an approach like that, where you alter what is actually said, you could make anything say whatever you wanted, but that would not be dealing honestly with the text.