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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
On the contrary. All those atrocities and the repression were taken, by Christians, from their Bibles - the same one you use (tho some of the earlier ones were the Bible before the King James version). Or are you saying that the Old Testament isn't part of your Bible? And bigotry against wiccans and atheists by Christians is alive and well today.
"Jehova God" (?) Only Christians think Jehovah and Jesus are one. Unfortunately, it was the Christians who convinced Pres Eisenhower to add "under God" to the pledge. They were not being generous of thought, they were staking a claim. Wrongly.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
Please don't just make unsupported claims, please give me a verse from either the Old or the New testament that mandates or gives Christians the instruction to hate, kill or harm witches, Jews, Ahtiest?Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
Exodus 22:18
DittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Tuscany
Obviously you can't handle the arguments I provided or you would have tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
[QUOTE]Well duh, the framers of the constitution were predominantly Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
Then you should be saying "unfortunately the Country was founded by Christians"Quote:
Unfortunately, it was the Christians who convinced Pres Eisenhower to add "under God" to the pledge. They were not being generous of thought, they were staking a claim. Wrongly.
Of the 55 colonial delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, 52 were members of Christian churches.
James Madison said..
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
There is no doubt about it; America was founded by Christians and the U. S. Constitution was based upon the eternal laws of God as revealed in the Bible. To think that the Ten Commandments are not historically relevant to the foundations of the American legal system is preposterous.
The arguments that you provided were that the gay community spreads AIDS (a myth) and that sex is made strictly for the means of reproduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
AIDS can be found in every community gay straight or otherwise. Your justification shows ingnorance to the facts found since the early 80's.
I applaud you if you only have sex as a means to reproduce. Personally, I use sex as an expression of love. THe child that I conceive is a child conceived in that love. Sex is so much more than a way to reproduce.
I never heard of that term. And the OP has forbidden religious reasons so keep your anti-religious bigotry to yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
Are you certain?Quote:
No type of sexual union "brings" AIDS.
So sexual union does bring "aids".Quote:
It is a communicable disease that can be transmitted to another through sex
And which group is predominantly afflicted by this disease?Quote:
(but not only sex) - the sharing of bodily fluids, no matter who is doing the sharing.
... HIV/AIDS has predominantly afflicted specific population groups (i.e.,. Male homosexuals and intravenous drug users)...
Fletcher.tufts.edu/praxis/archives/xxii/gonzalez.pdf
Sincerely,
De Maria
According to versions of the Bible in the original languages in pre-King James versions, it translates more closely to "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". Poisoning was a huge problem at the time. King James was a huge believer in the occult. The play Macbeth was written specifically for him by Shakespeare based on James's interests. In the King James version, the word was translated inadvertently to "witch".Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Do you have any that say we should kill or harm athiests or Jews?
You are responding to the first post I made on this topic. Did someone else bring it up or are you referring to an age old argument?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Margo asked for nonreligious posts. But you seem to want to drag me into a religious discussion.Quote:
So... those couples who are married but NOT trying for children should NOT be having sex, right?
Correct. For Catholic couples, they vow to have children when they get married and they should do their best to keep that vow.
If you are not Catholic, you obviously live according to your own mores.
That is correct. Matrimony is the office of motherhood. If someone wants to be married but does not want children they are not permitted to be married in the Catholic Church.Quote:
Seriously--if you really feel that marriage is for children, then all couples who do not WANT children should be denied marriage,
Again, you are dragging this into a religious discussion. Is that what you want?
You are putting words in my mouth again. I still remember our last discussions. Please stick to what I've said. Not your projections upon me. Read my posts and respond to the words thereon.Quote:
and all those who HAVE children should be forced to marry, right?
If you want to have a non religious discussion with me on whether homosexuality is wrong, please respond to what I actually said in my last post on this thread.Quote:
And birth control should be thrown out the window, since sex is ONLY for children, and if you're not trying to have a child, you shouldn't be having sex--married or not.
And sex should then stop as soon as either half of the couple's sex organs no longer work, making that little blue pill worthless, since most men who need it are with women past childbearing age anyway. And menopause would be the beginning of the end for all couples. Should one couple lose their capacity for having children (emergency hysterectomy, or something like that), then the couple no longer should have sex, and should make SURE of that by sleeping in separate bedrooms, since marriage is ONLY for children, and well... if you can't have kids, you shouldn't be married.
If you want to debate Christian or Catholic doctrine on the matter of marriage and children, please start another thread.
Sincerely,
De Maria
All you have to do is walk into the HIV/AIDS wing of any hospital. There's no arguing the majority of the population therein.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
But you aren't interested in intelligent discussion. That's why I rarely respond to your posts excon.
How do you know if that AIDS patient at the hospital is gay?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Oh come on NH you know that you can JUST TELL when someone is gay. They have that "I am gay" vibe. :):)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Obviously you're carrying a lot of baggage. I can only change my responses within the alloted time to edit. I believe everyone has that ability. Other than that I don't have the authority to change anyone's responses.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I am a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuscany
That is where you are wrong. We don't have to worry about having children because we would love to have more children. So our sex is pure enjoyment.Quote:
to only have sex when you wish to procreate. No sex for the pure of enjoyment of sex for you.
On the other hand, you have to worry about condoms, about pills and about whether they have worked. So it is you that worries, not we.
That is wonderful for you. Obviously you either practice a different religion than I or you don't practice a religion which considers sex as a holy interaction between man and wife open to life.Quote:
I am glad that I did not marry my husband for the pure reason of having children. I am glad that I married my husband because he is my best friend, when children come into the picture it will be because our relationship is strong and whole. NOT because we got married. I could have easily had a baby before we were married...
But what does any of this have to do with the OP? Isn't this OP about homosexuality and the nonreligious reasons it is wrong?
Do you mean by artificial means or what?Quote:
You are wrong- same sex unions can have children. My aunt does...
No it wasn't. Even today, everyone who goes to give blood is asked if they have come in contact with a homosexual before so doing? Why? Because homosexuals are prone to carry the disease.Quote:
Oh good lord you have to be kidding me. Can you honestly believe this? Have you done any research on AIDS and HIV? That myth was dispelled DECADES ago!
I don't. But I know that the odds are that is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
How do I know? I worked at a large Cancer hospital for 10 years. I was aware of the makeup of the population of that hospital.
During that time, I also had information on many hospitals in my city. The percentages were the same for aids patients.
I no longer work in hospitals. But I have not heard that the percentages have changed.
My apologiesQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That is where you are wrong about me. We do not have to worry about any of those things. If we are blessed with a child (which I honestly hope we are) then that child will have been conceived in love. I do have to worry about pills. Fertility drugs- but I hope and pray that they work- alas that is another discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, but I am a Catholic. Married in a Catholic Church and attend mass on a weekly basis. That being said I understand the bible is a piece of literary work and open to interpretation. Heck this Sunday our Father gave a homily on a gospel reading and I got something totally different out of it then he did. Does that make my interpretation wrong. Nope...Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I also believe that I should love and accept others just as Jesus did.
This thread has had many different directions. This is just one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Actually my Aunt was once married, her husband died at a young age. My Aunt was at the time pregnant. She decided not to lie to herself anymore and started dating her partner. They have been together ever since. It is the only family my cousin has ever known.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
They also ask you if you are feeling sick, if you recently have gotten a tattoo, or have any other diseases. I know this for a fact as my school just hosted a Red Cross Blood Drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Get real... I was talking to EX.. not you. Dare me? Don't dare me.. I don't care.. this was addressed to HIM. I am not judging anyone... if he is upset... let HIM speak. K?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
De Maria,
You came to this conversation late.
By the time YOU popped in here, we'd already covered a lot of the points you brought up again (like the procreation bit), and have continued the discussion down several veins, including those of religion and government.
Those of us non-Christians talking about religion now are responding to points made by Christians, and are basically just pointing out the flaws in those arguments.
I don't, by the way, worry about sex. I'd LOVE to have a child, and haven't used birth control in YEARS. Of course, I also am not a Christian, so do not have to live with that god's precepts of what sex is for (reproduction) and have always just been able to enjoy sex.
Just as an FYI when you post something on a public board anyone can comment. Synnen had every right to comment on your post, you made it a public post. Just so you are aware.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Thank for the info Tuscany! It was STILL addressed to Excon... and I am STILL entitled to MY opinion of HIS post... that is all I am saying. I was never going to report anyone and HE knows that... just my opinion of how Christains are treated.. and hmmm? I rest my case.
Funny, I could say the same thing about Christians.
None of the NON-Christians jumped all over my response. Just a Christian.
Funny how non-Christians are treated, hmmm?
[QUOTE=sassyT]Many of them, deists, belonged or attended because they would have been vilified had they not. T Jefferson declared himself a Christian with qualifications - only in the sense that he believed in what Jesus taught about how humans should behave towards one another.Quote:
Well duh, the framers of the constitution were predominantly Christians.
Then you should be saying "unfortunately the Country was founded by Christians"
Of the 55 colonial delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, 52 were members of
Christian churches.
Nowhere in the US Constitution is God, god, a creator or any supernatural agent mentioned.Quote:
there is no doubt about it; America was founded by Christians and the U. S. Constitution was based upon the eternal laws of God as revealed in the Bible. To think that the Ten Commandments are not historically relevant to the foundations of the American legal system is preposterous.
The principles in the Constitution were more largely based on the ideas of the Enlightenment and the 'rights of man' - those that humans have simply because they exist as thinking beings. Any of the supposed 10 C relevant to the foundations of US legal system were because they were universal, not something solely Judeo-Christian. The US has even declared itself to be NOT a Christian nation:
The Treaty of Tripoli (1797) contains the following Article XI:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen and as the said State have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. [emphasis added]
Synnen,
I didn't jump on anything you had to say regarding homosexuals... and all Christians are NOT created equal... but they are treated the same.. bummer
I do too.. so what's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Based on what I learned in school, people's sexual preference isn't quite decided until late teens. In fact people can be experimental at this time and experiment with members of the same sex.
In class, we learned that people are born in a continuum of sexual preference from none, to total same sex to completely bi to complete heterosexual.
Furthermore, what sex is a hermapherdite which is a person that has both external organs. What is a she male. Female appearance with male sexual organs and what are those that have SRS or (sexual re-assignment surgery).
I doub't you can put any though into "why homosexuality is wrong" without addressing the above mentioned issues.
I won't. It's food for thought.
You sound so frustrated but I wonder why are you are torturing yourself on a religious forum anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Maybe you so called atheist should just stay away from RELIGIOUS forums.. lol.. gees.. Why is that you come on religious forums and open up a discussion and then take offense at what we "religious" people have to say. If you are really wanting responses that agree with your beliefs and doctrines then why don't you spend more time on other discussion forum and just avoid this religious one.
Seriously.. I find it really ironic that athiests spend so much of their time and effort on religious forums. It seems to me that you just come here to harrasse believers about what they believe in an effort to promote your own beliefs. I think I speak for most believers here when I say we are not interested in athiestic beliefs, if we were we would be on an athiestic forum somewhere. So please if you want to have a civil debate about issues on a religious forum, be prepared to deal a difference in opinion in civil and respectful manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by margog85
This question should be on a non-religious forum.
Don't you get it? Atheism IS a religion. They have every right to be here and show you the one and only TRUTH.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
What part of my earlier posts didn't you get? I never ever once said I was an atheist.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
I'm a FIRM believer in Wicca. The goddess and the god, as well as the ancients and the elements, have my absolute faith.
I just don't worship YOUR god.
However, since it's "religious discussions" not "Christian discussions", and I have a religion, I believe that puts me on equal footing with you.
I'm not interested in converting to your Christian beliefs, either, but at least I have enough respect for them to KNOW what you believe. You don't have a CLUE about my religion, though.
I believe I have been civil--please point out to me where I have not used logical arguments to counter yours.
Again... just because I'm not of YOUR religion doesn't mean I don't have one of my own. And since you know so little about it, I've apparently been pushing mine less than you've pushed your own.
I am going to answer this question without referring to religion to answer it, as the question politely requests.
WHEN I WAS 12 YEARS OLD, MY MOTHER WHO WAS A NUN AND A VIRGIN BEFORE MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN, DIVORCED MY FATHER AND MOVED IN WITH A WOMAN. NEEDLESS TO SAY, IT WAS A LIFECHANGING EXPERIENCE. SHE NEVER EXPLICITLY SAID SHE WAS A LESBIAN, BUT HER ACTIONS AND LIFESTYLE SHOWED ME THAT IS WHAT SHE WAS.
THIS TOOK MANY YEARS FOR ME TO PROCESS AND UNDERSTAND AND AT 36, THIS IS MY CONCLUSION:
FIRST off, I am not here to tell you whether homosexuality is wrong because I really don't know. I can only tell you what I feel. I know as a young girl, sexuality isn't something that I understood and now in my thirties I am just mastering my own comfort level with it.
Second, most people don't have any control over what they feel or what they desire, they do however, have control over how they act upon it. There are many reasons someone would deny their feelings of homosexuality, but not as many to become open and honest about them. I don't think you can find fault or judgement about how someone feels about another person, what comes into question is the choices and the lifestyle they make based on those feelings.
As a society, we have rules of law, issues of morality and ethics, as well as a standard of expectations of how to live and procreate. We have an understanding of religion and family that is intricately intertwined for many reasons. In order to preserve marriage and family, there must be the notion of keeping relationships heterosexual, it is critical to the survival as the patriarchal society that has dominated most cultures and societies worldwide, throughout history.
WITH THAT being said, it has NEVER stopped people from engaging in homosexual acts or relationships. For the most part, people go against everything they have ever been taught at school, home or in their church, when acting out those relationships. I don' t think the desire to be sexual with someone of the same sex, can be condemned, it however just a feeling and therefore, it is something that cannot be deemed "WRONG". What may be perceived as wrong, is going against the grain of society's expectations of how one should engage in appropriate relationships and act them out.
MAYBE to some it is wrong to live with someone of the same sex, or to have children together, but what I think is wrong is for people who are in heterosexual relationships that are unfaithful, unethical and abusive, to judge those that live different than themselves. It is hippocritical to judge others when those that judge do not live up to the standards that they hold others accountable to.
Moreover, homosexual relationships aren't easy to understand and they do have consequences that affect many different facets of their lives. Families are often ripped apart due to the realization of the gay lifestyle and they sometimes are ostracized from their family, profession and friends. NO ONE chooses to lose everything based upon how they feel about someone, sometimes the realization of being true to oneself overcomes the desire to be accepted by family, friends and their career. NOT only does one risk everything to become honest about their homosexual feelings, they often spend the rest of their life justifying their decisions, their lifestyle and their acknowledgement of who they are.
NO I don't think homosexuality is wrong, it is a choice to live out a lifestyle that coincides with their feelings of love for another person, that not everyone will agree with. It is inevitable. IT is unstoppable. NOT to be compared with choosing to kill, steal or abuse people, it is choosing to accept their feelings and hoping others will too. DO I understand the choice to live a gay lifestyle, no I don't. BUT that is because I am not gay. HOWEVER, I understand the ramifications of being in a relationship that is a lie because that is what society expects of you.
My mother has chosen to live out a gay lifestyle based upon how she FEELS about women. Does that mean I agree with it? I don't have to agree with it but I do have to love and respect her as my mother, because that is who she is. I was angry with her for many years, blamed her for breaking up our family and hurting my dad. BUT ULTIMATELY, her choice that I didn't understand then, has changed my outlook on life. I have become a more aware individual of things I don't understand, and accepting of that which I don't personally agree with. The only one I am responsible for is myself, my actions and my lifestyle. I cannot speak against, or judge the way another person chooses to live.
THAT is my truth and the way that I see it. I would rather live my life accepting others for who they are, not for who they love. I hope I can be true to myself and understand others who must do the same in their own life, in their way.. it isn't for me to judge, only to learn from.
I believe we were given free will for a reason, to use it, learn from it and grow to more spiritually evolved human beings. I don't understand homosexuality and I don't think I ever will, but I will never say it is wrong because who your heart loves isn't wrong, it just is. What you do with it may affect others, may have negative consequences and may create division and discord, but that doesn't mean being honest with who you are is wrong. WE tend to bash what we don't understand, instead of simply loving others who are different than ourselves. Disfunctional heterosexual relationships are wrong but they are supported because that is what we are taught to do. What we need to do is teach our children to accept that everyone is different and so are their choices, and sometimes our feelings have a way of affecting those choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Interesting statistics from the CDC:
AIDS cases reported in 2006
Male to male transmission 43.5%
Needle transmission 18%
Male to male plus needle transmission 5%
Heterosexual 32%
Other 1%
So it's 43.5% homosexual transmission; 56.6% other
All AIDS cases reported through 2006
Male to male transmission 48%
Injectable drug/needle transmission 25%
Male to male plus needle transmission 7%
Heterosexual 17.8%
Other 2%
48% homosexual; 52% other
Don't know whose argument these statistics support but found them interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Did I say you changed anyone's responses but your own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
This is ENTIRELY too much information!
Yes, But was you are neglecting to consider is the fact that Homosexual consist of only 2% of the population and yet account for 48% of the transmissions. ScaryQuote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
You said I had changed mine. But you quoted me in your objection to my message. And the quote of my words in your message was exactly as I said it in my message.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I said that in response to someone else. No one is forcing you to read my messages.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I know but it's like watching a train wreck - can't tear my eyes away.
No problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuscany
Actually it is. Therefore so was your original objection.Quote:
That is where you are wrong about me. We do not have to worry about any of those things. If we are blessed with a child (which I honestly hope we are) then that child will have been conceived in love. I do have to worry about pills. Fertility drugs- but I hope and pray that they work- alas that is another discussion.
Sounds as though you have a lot to learn about your Catholic faith:Quote:
Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, but I am a Catholic. Married in a Catholic Church and attend mass on a weekly basis. That being said I understand the bible is a piece of literary work and open to interpretation.
According to Catholic Church teaching, Scripture is the Word of God:
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 81
And the Catholic Church teaches that Scripture must be interpreted according to the Tradition of the Church:
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2
Yes.Quote:
Heck this Sunday our Father gave a homily on a gospel reading and I got something totally different out of it then he did. Does that make my interpretation wrong. Nope...
Jesus didn't accept anyone who did not repent of their sins.Quote:
I also believe that I should love and accept others just as Jesus did.
Yeah, I'm just making a point. Atheists usually come to religious forum with an agenda and they don't care about usurping the threads for that agenda which is usually anti-Christian.Quote:
This thread has had many different directions. This is just one of them.
And that proves that same sex unions do not conceive children.Quote:
Actually my Aunt was once married, her husband died at a young age. My Aunt was at the time pregnant. She decided not to lie to herself anymore and started dating her partner. They have been together ever since. It is the only family my cousin has ever known.
I didn't say that there weren't other ways to catch the disease. But look at the statistics which someone posted in blue (JudyKay?) and notice the largest group suffering from AIDS.Quote:
They also ask you if you are feeling sick, if you recently have gotten a tattoo, or have any other diseases. I know this for a fact as my school just hosted a Red Cross Blood Drive.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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