Ask Me Help Desk - The Nature of Salvation

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I will be happy to explain to you what third person means. When you have to refer to someone by their name, such as referring to me as JLisenbe in your posts, then you are using third person

Would you prefer I call you another name? Other than your own? Say John Doe or Hieronymous Ingobatz? In any case, why the need to mention it?

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You want it done your way. I suppose you started a new thread so you could check and see if I posted. After all, you had me blocked.

I don't know what any of this means. Including "starting a new thread".

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Never, ever claimed that. Show me where I did

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Well, maybe I wasn't specific enough. You quoted the Bible that, according to you, said that those who did not believe in Jesus were condemned to eternal punishment in hell. Are you now saying you don't believe in that anymore?

"You" frequently works well, as in actually speaking TO the person rather than ABOUT the person, and thus the difference between second and third person. You had to use third person to dramatize, I suppose, the fact you had me blocked. Whatever the deal was, we are now speaking to each other as we should be. That's progress.

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I don't know what any of this means. Including "starting a new thread".

This thread is "The Nature of Salvation". You started new threads (six or so) titled "My reply to JL" or something like that. Play there all you want. I'm here. Others are here. The topic at hand is here.

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Well, maybe I wasn't specific enough. You quoted the Bible that, according to you, said that those who did not believe in Jesus were condemned to eternal punishment in hell. Are you now saying you don't believe in that anymore?

You are finally catching on. Not only did I quote the Bible, but I gave you a list of more than twenty passages where hell is spoken of, including the Matthew 25 passage which is very powerful. So yes, I believe what the Bible says, and that has been my profession from the word go. Thus the admonition, "It is written." You are free to reject that, but I would appreciate it if you would not mischaracterize what I have said.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Never have believed it. Believing the way I believe is not at all important. Now believing what the Bible says??? THAT'S important.

Whose translation and interpretation of the Bible?

For your benefit, I will post them again.

Scriptures Concerning the Biblical Teaching of a Day of Judgement and Hell

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 5:22. “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
Matthew 8:11,12. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 10:28. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Matthew 13:30. (This is the conclusion of the parable of the wheat and tares.) “Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.”
Matthew 13:49,50. ^“This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous ⁵⁰and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 18:8. “It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.”
Matt. 25:31-48. This lengthy passage clearly sets forth the existence of a fiery hell. The people sent to hell were judged, not for what they did, but for what the neglected to do. The inference is that Christ was not Lord.
Mark 8:38. “If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Luke 3:17. “His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 13:2. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Luke 16:19ff. “In Hades, where he (the rich man) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ²⁴So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. ²⁶And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’”
Acts 24:15. “and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” Again, not a reference to hell, but the teaching of a resurrection “of both the righteous and the wicked,” would certainly agree with such a reference.
Colossians 3:5,6. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
1 Thessalonians 1:10. “Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
1 Thessalonians 5:9. “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10. “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus. ⁹They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the LORD and from the glory of his might…”
2 Peter 2:4ff. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment… if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
Jude 7. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Rev. 20:11ff. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Psalm 21:8-9. You will capture all your enemies. Your strong right hand will seize all who hate you. You will throw them in a flaming furnace when you appear. The LORD will consume them in his anger; fire will devour them.

The following scriptures show God as the one who is coming to judge the earth.

Hebrews 9:27. “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment…” Another reference to a coming day of judgement.
2 Corinthians 5:10,19,20. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.2 Timothy 4:1. I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
Hebrews 6:2. Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of…the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Rev. 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
1 Peter 1:17. Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
1 Peter 4:5. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Genesis 18:25. Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?”
Hebrews 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
John 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” What a powerful statement concerning the necessity of faith in Christ.
Acts 24:25. “As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid…” This text is not a reference to hell itself but does point out the coming judgement of which everyone should be aware.
Rev. 20:11ff. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Matthew 12:36. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

WG

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Whose translation and interpretation of the Bible?

1. Translation. Perhaps you can point to a major doctrine affected by the use of a particular translation.
2. Interpretation? Read the scriptures above and tell me how interpretation enters in.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

"You" frequently works well, as in actually speaking TO the person rather than ABOUT the person, and thus the difference between second and third person. You had to use third person to dramatize, I suppose, the fact you had me blocked. Whatever the deal was, we are now speaking to each other as we should be. That's progress.

No, that's paranoia.

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This thread is "The Nature of Salvation". You started new threads (six or so) titled "My reply to JL" or something like that. Play there all you want. I'm here. Others are here. The topic at hand is here.

As I explained, I could not fit my answer into a reply to that thread - your post and my reply combined - it was too long. However, someone, a moderator I presume, worked it into a complete single post listed as Part 1. It's an easy read now. Try it, you'll like it.

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You are finally catching on.

Oh, I caught on a long time ago about you.

So I am right, you DO still believe that that those who don't believe in Jesus are condemned to eternal punishment in hell. You even repeated Bible verses in case anybody wasn't sure about your belief. Every one of those verses can be read to deny your interpretation. I've already done a few of them. Why don't you pick out two or three of your favorites and let me respond.

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Thus the admonition, "It is written."

That's an interesting "admonition". Apparently, that is your proof that the Bible condemns those who do not believe in Jesus to eternal punishment in hell.

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I would appreciate it if you would not mischaracterize what I have said.

What have I mischaracterized in my above statement? If the phrase is not your proof, I will say so.

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It's an easy read now. Try it, you'll like it.

You can post it here. I am not going to dance to your tune. You can forget that.

For the ten millionth time, I believe what the Bible plainly teaches. You don't. That's where we differ. That's why I am able to post a boatload of scriptures to your...none. It also explains why you stated that no book on the earth can second guess our beliefs, and that being asked to support a position with scripture is a fool's errand.

You mischaractierized my position when you alleged I had been saying that everyone has to believe as I do or they will go to hell, and you basically admitted that when you confessed you had not been specific enough. You should be more careful.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

WG
1. Translation. Perhaps you can point to a major doctrine affected by the use of a particular translation.
2. Interpretation? Read the scriptures above and tell me how interpretation enters in.

1. By translation, I mean the translation of Hebrew and Greek words.
2. Whose interpretation of Scripture is correct -- yours or mine?

1. By translation, I mean the translation of Hebrew and Greek words.
2. Whose interpretation of Scripture is correct -- yours or mine?

I'll just repeat my two questions from above and patiently await a genuine answer.

1. Translation. Perhaps you can point to a major doctrine affected by the translation of a Greek or Hebrew word? (Modified to fit your objection.)
2. Interpretation? Read the scriptures above and tell me how interpretation enters in.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

For the ten millionth time, I believe what the Bible plainly teaches. You don't.

You are a literalist. You don't take into account any nuances of language, the culture, the time period, deeper meanings.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You can post it here. I am not going to dance to your tune. You can forget that.

It's already posted here. Good grief. This is "Religious Discussions" where we are now. Now go to "My Discussion with Jlisenbe - Part 1" The ENTIRE post - yours and mine - is posted there.

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For the ten millionth time, I believe what the Bible plainly teaches.

No. As many times, you believe what you INTERPRET what the Bible teaches. Probably learned as a child growing up, but maybe later. To make matters worse, your Bible is in a language that DID NOT EVEN EXIST when the Bible was written down - and more, you treat the Bible as if it were a single book - IT IS 70+ BOOKS! Written down over about 800 years!!! And as many authors. In at least 5 languages! That's why it needs explaining and interpretation.

Sometimes I think the Catholic Church had the right idea. Forbid the Bible from being read by the people unless they were trained. Look what happened when that changed! Now we have more interpretations than Carter has liver pills. (I'm sure that CChurch bit will be thrown back at me - I should know better by now, but I hate to miss the fun).

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You don't.(believe the Bible)

You have no idea what I believe or don't believe.

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That's where we differ.

You can take THAT to the bank!

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That's why I am able to post a boatload of scriptures to your...none.

No, that's not why. I avoid playing Bible Bingo.

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It also explains why you stated that no book on the earth can second guess our beliefs,

I still maintain that. Even the Catholic Church, the largest Christian denom, teaches the Primacy of Conscience. You really should think about that and not just respond with a knee-jerk reply.

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and that being asked to support a position with scripture is a fool's errand.

Yes, I said that in the context of your battle with WG and you spewing verses til the cows come home. Cherry-picking the Bible is a fool's errand. It never ends.

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You mischaractierized my position when you alleged I had been saying that everyone has to believe as I do or they will go to hell, and you basically admitted that when you confessed you had not been specific enough. You should be more careful.

Let's parse that. You claim the Bible says those who don't believe in Jesus are condemned to hell for eternity. You even posted all those Scriptures. YOU say you believe the Bible. ERGO QED, not believing in your Bible belief means just that - all go to hell.

My "confession" was to illuminate my statement so you would understand it and not challenge it - alas it didn't work.

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You are a literalist. You don't take into account any nuances of language, the culture, the time period, deeper meanings.

I have asked you for examples. You seem to have none. Of course I take those qualities into account. Always have.

Athos, we've already had the long discussion of the text of the Bible. 66 books and 40 or so authors written over 1500 or so years. Have known that for decades.

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That's why I am able to post a boatload of scriptures to your...none.

No, that's not why. I avoid playing Bible Bingo.

Nah. You just have nothing to back up your positions.

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"You claim the Bible"

I posted multiple verses. You just don't like it.

As to the Catholics claims about conscience, I don't care what the Catholic church says. I care what the Bible says. Your "primacy of conscience" position is completely unbiblical.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have asked you for examples.

1. Translation. Perhaps you can point to a major doctrine affected by the translation of a Greek or Hebrew word? (Modified to fit your objection.)
2. Interpretation? Read the scriptures above and tell me how interpretation enters in.

My response to #1 -- There is no scriptural evidence for the existence and teaching of the three persons of a "Holy Trinity". That was cobbled together by translators.

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#1 -- There is no scriptural evidence for the existence and teaching of the three Persons of a "Holy Trinity". That was cobbled together by translators.

No scriptural evidence? Really? Well, when Jesus was baptized, the Spirit descended upon Jesus as a dove, and a voice spoke from heaven that was clearly the Father. So there are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And then you can look up Matt. 28:19, John 10:30, 1 Peter 1:2, John 14:26;1:1-3&14;14:16,17, Gen. 1:26. You can also check out chapters 4 and 5 in Revelation. When you finish with those, get back with me.

OK. Also look up Col.2:9 and John 15:26.

In what way do you believe that was "cobbled together" by translators? That makes no sense at all.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

As to the Catholics claims about conscience, I don't care what the Catholic church says. I care what the Bible says. Your "primacy of conscience" position is completely unbiblical.

LOL - I'm aware you don't care what the Catholic Church teaches. In your world, the Cath Church is the "Whore of Babylon". Yes, Primacy of Conscience is unbiblical. So is spaghetti and meatballs. You need to expand your horizons. Blinding your mind to God by placing a book in front of him is not the best approach. It's ok for a while, but as Paul says,"... when I became a man, I put away the things of a child".

A completely pointless, error-filled rant containing a lie (I think the Cath. Church is the "Whore of Babylon") and meaningless advice (expanding horizons). And then there is the silliness of "placing a book in front of him". So you are convinced that the knowledge of God comes from outside the Bible. Otherwise, your statement would be completely foolish. If the knowledge of God comes from within the Bible, then the Bible would be the descriptor of God. The harmony would be complete.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

No scriptural evidence? Really? Well, when Jesus was baptized, the Spirit descended upon Jesus as a dove, and a voice spoke from heaven that was clearly the Father. So there are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

My spirit (pneuma) is part of me, is not a separate person. Your spirit (pneuma) is part of you, is not a separate person. God's spirit (pneuma) is part of him, is not a separate person.

So does your spirit descend upon you as a dove? Do you speak to yourself and address yourself as "Son"? Your comment is senseless.

Read the scriptures. I know you are accustomed to forming your view of truth from outside the Bible, but I am not. Until you are prepared to put some work into this, just forget it. It's really disappointing that you could not trouble yourself to look up a single reference. Instead you resorted to illogical philosophy

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

A completely pointless, error-filled rant containing a lie (I think the Cath. Church is the "Whore of Babylon") and meaningless advice (expanding horizons).

Now, now, Jl don't get mad. Expanding horizons is always good advice. If you deny believing the Whore of Babylon business, good for you. That's progress if you ever believed it.

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So you are convinced that the knowledge of God comes from outside the Bible.

There you go again - putting words in my mouth. That's really a nasty habit. You need to work on it.

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Otherwise, your statement would be completely foolish.

"There are many mansions in my father's house".

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If the knowledge of God comes from within the Bible, then the Bible would be the descriptor of God.

I've already said the Bible is a good book - invaluable, in fact.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

My spirit (pneuma) is part of me, is not a separate person. Your spirit (pneuma) is part of you, is not a separate person. God's spirit (pneuma) is part of him, is not a separate person.

I never thought of it in that way. Very interesting. Certainly food for thought.

I was aware that the word Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, and that it was included by the Catholics when they organized the books of the Bible around the 3-4 century.

It's such a good book that you don't believe it. It's a good book, and yet we get in trouble if we, "put it before God." It's a good book, but you never refer to its text. Yeah, your double-talk won't work here.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So does your spirit descend upon you as a dove? Do you speak to yourself and address yourself as "Son"? Your comment is senseless.

Yet Christ Himself contradicted this equilateral notion by simply stating, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

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Read the scriptures. I know you are accustomed to forming your view of truth from outside the Bible....

You know this how?

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Until you are prepared to put some work into this, just forget it. It's really disappointing that you could not trouble yourself to look up a single reference. Instead you resorted to illogical philosophy

So you want proof passages. Bible Bingo time! I gave you one above.