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Originally Posted by 450donn

NONE of which are we suppose to contact. I have given you numerous scriptures to support this position, and you have not given one in support of it. How come?

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Exactly.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It does matter whether they are dead in the flesh since the Bible prohibits speaking to those who are dead in the flesh without differentiating whether they are saved or unsaved.

Whether those souls can pray is not the question. The question is whether we should be praying to them.

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True as spoken...And the answer is NO

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Exactly.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

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Where do you find it to ask other church members to pray for you.
Prayer circle, prayer lists, phone chains for prayer and more.

So why not include those that have gone ahead, are they also not part of the "Church"

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

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You've already indicated their spirits are alive.

How about conducting a conversation with them?

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Where do you find it to ask other church members to pray for you.
prayer circle, prayer lists, phone chains for prayer and more.

So why not include those that have gone ahead, are they also not part of the "Church"

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For a number of reasons which I posted previously, but not the least of which is God's prohibition of speaking to those who are dead in the flesh.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Exactly.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

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The exhortation: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

The exhortation: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

JoeT

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Maccabees is not scripture and internally denies being an inspired work.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Maccabees is not scripture and internally denies being an inspired work.

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Is that the best you can do? Do you deny the existence of any book in the bible that doesn’t support your private theology? Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Is that the best you can do? Do you deny the existence of any book in the bible that doesn’t support your private theology? Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?

JoeT

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Maccabees isn't in the Bible used by non-Catholic Christians.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Is that the best you can do? Do you deny the existence of any book in the bible that doesn’t support your private theology?

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That argument does not hold water. If a book denies that it is inspired, why would I want to accept it as scripture?

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Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?

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James was accepted as scripture before your denomination existed.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

The exhortation: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

JoeT

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Joe the question of this thread is not whether we pray for the dead.... So let's please try and stay on thread..

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Originally Posted by arcura

Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.
Fred

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Fred's question suggest that it is ok to pray to the dead.....


This has flip flopped on different post like a hooked fish on a line..

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Joe the question of this thread is not whether we pray for the dead.... So let's please try and stay on thread..



Fred's question suggest that it is ok to pray to the dead.....


This has flip flopped on different post like a hooked fish on a line..

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Well you got me on that one, touché.

But, I'll leave with this:Luther used Maccabees before the schism. Why did he turn his back on it? Could it be that Maccabees was taking money for indulgences too?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

But, I'll leave with this:Luther used Maccabees before the schism. Why did he turn his back on it? Could it be that Maccabees was taking money for indulgences too?

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Three comments on this:

1) Prior to that, he was a priest in your denomination.
2) He came to the conclusion that we should follow God's word rather than man - why should I now follow the word of men? Like any other man, Luther could make mistakes also.
3) He probably turned his back on it because it was not scriptural.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Three comments on this:

1) Prior to that, he was a priest in your denomination.
2) He came to the conclusion that we should follow God's word rather than man - why should I now follow the word of men? Like any other man, Luther could make mistakes also.
3) He probably turned his back on it because it was not scriptural.

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1) He was a monk, not a priest. Different animal.
2) Yes, he did.
3) Yes, that is exactly what happened.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

1) He was a monk, not a priest. Different animal.

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Not necessarily a different animal:

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Martin Luther (1483 – 1546) founded Protestantism, one of the major movements within Christianity. He was a German monk, theologian, university professor, priest, and church reformer whose ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization.
Martin Luther - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?

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Dad's an alcoholic. Let's get rid of him. Mom's not, but let's get rid of her too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Not necessarily a different animal:

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Martin Luther (1483 – 1546) founded Protestantism, one of the major movements within Christianity. He was a German monk, theologian, university professor, priest, and church reformer whose ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization.
Martin Luther - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I apologize -- forgot that role he took on -- from confessingreader.wordpress.com --
"In 1514 he became preacher in the parish church, whose pulpit became the center of a long and fruitful preaching ministry in which Luther expounded profoundly and beautifully the Scriptures for the common people and related them to the practical context of their lives."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I apologize -- forgot that role he took on -- from confessingreader.wordpress.com --
"In 1514 he became preacher in the parish church, whose pulpit became the center of a long and fruitful preaching ministry in which Luther expounded profoundly and beautifully the Scriptures for the common people and related them to the practical context of their lives."

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I’d suggest from priest to propagandist.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I’d suggest from priest to propagandist.

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Naw. He loved the Catholic Church, but was excommunicated. TPTB didn't love him. And it all could have ended so differently had politics not been involved. At least the Lutheran Church has kept much from its mother church.