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You do not even know me. By what means do you claim the authority to judge me and to judge my spiritual life and my walk with God?

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OMG, Tom, that's exactly what you are doing to me. So you're allowed, but I'm not? Wow!

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You seem to feel that it is okay to judge others who disagree with you. By what authority do you claim this right? Or do you think that it is okay for you to judge others but that we cannot disagree with you, and cannot believe what the Bible says because you don't agree with it?

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I never judged you, you judged me, I simply defended myself. I tried to be as kind as I could, you are the one who won't give an inch Tom, but you can't see it, can you? You can disagree with me, of course you can, but why am I not allowed to disagree with you? Why do you always go for the jugular whenever someone has different beliefs than you? It's not me Tom, read back and see, it's you. The sad thing is, you really don't see it.

You feel like you're so much better than everyone else because you read the bible, you know the bible. God would never talk down to people the way you do, he would never judge someone the way you do.

You don't have to agree that I believe in the same God as you do, that's fine, but I have the right to believe that and you cannot take that right away from me. That really makes you mad doesn't it? How dare I claim to know your God. How dare I?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

How dare I claim to know your God.

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I don't want to know his God, Alty. Be happy you know the real one, the one not confined to a tiny box wrapped in pretty paper and with a big, colorful bow on it. I much prefer your God--the God who seeks out lost causes and comforts scared teenagers and gives a supportive arm to the depressed and anxious.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I don't want to know his God, Alty. Be happy you know the real one, the one not confined to a tiny box wrapped in pretty paper and with a big, colorful bow on it. I much prefer your God--the God who seeks out lost causes and comforts scared teenagers and gives a supportive arm to the depressed and anxious.

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Big hug to you Wondergirl, big, big hug. :)

More than ever I feel on the right path in my life. God is a part of my life, a very welcome part. It took me a long time to get here, it wasn't an easy path, many times I didn't know if I'd even stay on that path, but I did. I'm comforted by my beliefs.

I truly believe that there's more than one path, and they don't all lead to God. Does that mean that someone took the wrong path? I don't think so, they just took the path that they were meant to take.

Everyone is different and I welcome those differences, they have taught me so much.

The world is always changing, we have to be willing to change with it, or we will get left behind.

I've met so many wonderful people on this site, all of us with different beliefs, different ways of life, but one thing in common, our humanity. It's easy to see the good in people, you just have to be willing to look. I'm glad that I looked, that I opened my eyes. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

OMG, Tom, that's exactly what you are doing to me. So you're allowed, but I'm not? Wow!

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But Alty, I did not judge you. I have simply gone solely by what you told me - nothing more. You judged me based upon my prayer life and other things - things that you know absolutely nothing about. That is what Jesus was referring to when he warned about judging righteously.

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You can disagree with me, of course you can, but why am I not allowed to disagree with you?

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I will always support your right to disagree and havenever even suggested otherwise. What I do oppose is disrespectful disagreement.

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You feel like you're so much better than everyone else because you read the bible, you know the bible.

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And you say that you are not judging me. Aklty, why won't you just accept that others can disagree with you? You started this discussion insisting that we accept your beliefs, something that I have never insisted of anyone else. You cannot tell others that they must accept what you want to believe. Disagreement - respectful; disagreement - is always acceptable, but when someone insists that others must accept what they believe, we have entered into the realm of forcing others to deny their own beliefs.

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You don't have to agree that I believe in the same God as you do, that's fine, but I have the right to believe that and you cannot take that right away from me.

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Certainly you can believe it, but you once told me that my God was hatefilled and evil and was different than yours. Now you want to claim my God, and deny what God said in His word. You cannot have it both ways.

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That really makes you mad doesn't it?

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It does not make me mad. In fact I feel sorry for those who feel that they must resort to disrespectful tactics to defend their god. I don't know why some folk simply refuse to accept that respectful disagreement is possible.

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How dare I claim to know your God. How dare I?

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There is nothing that I would like better than for you to know my God.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I don't want to know his God, Alty.

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You do admit that you follow a different God than the God of the Bible then.

Tom, I'm going to respectfully ask that you not join into this conversation any more.

The rest of us are discussing our different faiths, our different beliefs, you just continue to try and force your beliefs on others, and that's not what this thread is about.

I can quote you all day, but you will never really understand what I'm saying. We're going around in circles, getting no where, that's not why I started this thread.

It's gotten to the point where it's just you and I arguing back and forth and this thread isn't about either one of us, but everyone who feels like sharing their beliefs.

If you would like to discuss your beliefs in a not confrontational way then I'm more than happy to hear what you have to say. If you want to tell people that they are wrong, that their beliefs are wrong, then please start a thread of your own for that purpose.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You do admit that you follow a different God than the God of the Bible then.

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I said I do not want to know your Jonathan Edwards-type God who is stuffed inside that tiny box.

What box?

My then 8 year old son asked me why God made us fart, and my wife, the quicker of us, told him that God has a sense of humor :)













Gp

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Originally Posted by inthebox

What box?!

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The box that he isn't allowed to fart in because the Bible never mentions that he does that.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, I'm going to respectfully ask that you not join into this conversation any more.

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That is not your choice. It is ironic, though, considering the subject line, that you want to stop those who disagree with your beliefs from discussing their beliefs, and make false accusations and personal attacks.

As I said, the door is always open if you decide that you wish to discuss respectfully. If you do not, your option is to put me on ignore. But all, whether you disagree with us or not, have an equal right to discuss our views - including you I might add - if done respectfully. If you cannot handle disagreement, then you may want to consider not challenging the beliefs of others or engaging in topics where disagreement may arise.

Nonetheless, as I said, the door is open and will never close.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I said I do not want to know your Jonathan Edwards-type God who is stuffed inside that tiny box.

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That is your choice. But I do hope that you change your mind before it is too late.

Tom, you aren't discussing, you are trying to prove that your way is the only way, that's not discussion, that's an attempt at conversion. That's not what this thread is about.

If you want to spout your bible verses and put other people down, I prefer that you do it somewhere else. If you wish to discuss the topic then I'm more than willing to do so, but I do not want to argue with you and everything I say falls on deaf ears. I know you will say the same about me, just to incite another argument.

I really don't wish to fight with you and you have proven time and time again that you are incapable of anything but a fight. So I wish to end it now before this thread is closed.

If you wish to share your beliefs, fine, share them, but if you're only here to tell the rest of us how wrong we are to believe what we do, well, I for one don't want to hear it, and I will request that the thread be closed if that continues to happen.

You have a right to your beliefs, by all means, you just refuse to give anyone else the right to their beliefs. Please stop.

If you cannot stop, then please find somewhere else to play.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, I'm going to respectfully ask that you not join into this conversation any more.

The rest of us are discussing our different faiths, our different beliefs, you just continue to try and force your beliefs on others, and that's not what this thread is about.

I can quote you all day, but you will never really understand what I'm saying. We're going around in circles, getting no where, that's not why I started this thread.

It's gotten to the point where it's just you and I arguing back and forth and this thread isn't about either one of us, but everyone who feels like sharing their beliefs.

If you would like to discuss your beliefs in a not confrontational way then I'm more than happy to hear what you have to say. If you want to tell people that they are wrong, that their beliefs are wrong, then please start a thread of your own for that purpose.

Thank you.

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Well!! I for one, have been waiting for this to happen:)

This was really really getting to be exactly like all those other threads,Thank you alty,for ending the lost hope fighting and getting back to the Original Idea!

Thank you KBC.

I really just want us all to have a place to share our beliefs, to learn about each other. That's what I intended with this thread, and I'd like to stick to that.

I hope that everyone hasn't been scared off. I would really like to hear from everyone. I truly believe that we can all get along regardless of what we believe, we just have to be willing to listen and understand. We also have to be willing to judge people not on what they believe, but on who they are.

I know we can all do this, we were doing it, so let's continue.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, you aren't discussing, you are trying to prove that your way is the only way, that's not discussion, that's an attempt at conversion.

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Alty, Making false accusations gets you nowhere. But it is ronic that you accuse me of that when you demand that we accept your beliefs or get off the thread. That we accept your god, or you call our God evil and hate filled.

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If you want to spout your bible verses and put other people down, I prefer that you do it somewhere else.

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I'd prefer that you take your abuse somewhere else, if you cannot discuss respectfully.

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If you wish to discuss the topic then I'm more than willing to do so,

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Then stop the abuse and let's discuss. That is what I have been asking you to do all along.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

What box?

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I think that she means the box that God put Himself in - you know the limitations that he won't lie, won't sin, won't teach false doctrine, etc...

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I truly believe that we can all get along regardless of what we believe, we just have to be willing to listen and understand. We also have to be willing to judge people not on what they believe, but on who they are.

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Alty, these are excellent suggestions. I would only add to stick to the topic and don't discuss the person. I think that if you and wondergirl had followed these suggestions rather than getting into the mudslinging, it could have gone along fine.

Can we ALL agree to follow these suggestions now?

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Alty, Making false accusations gets you nowhere. But it is ronic that you accuse me of that when you demand that we accept your beliefs or get off the thread. That we accept your god, or you call our God evil and hate filled.

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Tom, I never said that you have to get off the thread because you won't accept my beliefs, I'm asking you to leave because I don't want arguments and you aren't capable of anything but arguments. Why do you refuse to stop?

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I'd prefer that you take your abuse somewhere else, if you cannot discuss respectfully.

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It's my thread Tom. If you have a problem, or want to discuss something, then start your own thread. Please.

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Then stop the abuse and let's discuss. That is what I have been asking you to do all along.

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I have nothing more to discuss with you, because with you it's never a discussion. I don't think you know the meaning of the word. Please, either be respectful of this thread and everyone on it, or move on.

I will not tolerate this Tom, you are inciting a fight, and I will not fight you any more. I'm done. Do you understand? I have no problem discussing a topic with someone who is actually willing to see someone else's point of view, but you cannot, so there is no discussion. Please respect my wishes, please, move on, find another thread for your fights, I don't welcome them, and I doubt that anyone else does either.

I don't want to close this thread, I think that we can all learn something from each other if we just open our hearts and minds, but you aren't willing to listen to anyone else's beliefs, you only want to promote your own.

You have a right to your belief, I don't deny you that right, but you do not have the right to talk down to others because of their beliefs.

This is the last time I'll ask Tom, please, move on, or stick to the theme of the thread. If you can't do this then let me know and I will close the thread and any hope that we all have at open communication about our beliefs.

I'm done with the fighting, aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, I never said that you have to get off the thread because you won't accept my beliefs,

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Right at the start of this thread you said that you wanted us to accept your beliefs - when we didn't, it went quickly downhill with all sort of abusive attacks ending up with your demands that I leave. Seems clear.

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Why do you refuse to stop?

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Why do I refuse to stop defending my faith? Why do you refuse to stop defending yours? Why does anyone? Why should anyone? What right do you have to ask or demand anyone to do so?

And more to the point - if you don't like discuss my beliefs, then why don't you stop?

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It's my thread Tom. If you have a problem, or want to discuss something, then start your own thread. Please.

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It is not your board. The rules of respectful discussion apply to ALL even if you started the thread.

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I have nothing more to discuss with you, because with you it's never a discussion.

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Fine - that is your choice - so why do you keep discussing? Please, either be respectful of this thread and everyone on it, or move on.

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I'm done.

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I am glad to hear it. I would dearly love to see this thread get off the personal abuse and back to a respectful discussion.

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I don't want to close this thread, I think that we can all learn something from each other if we just open our hearts and minds,

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Then why don't you follow that suggestion and let's let the discussion continue respectfully?

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You have a right to your belief, I don't deny you that right, but you do not have the right to talk down to others because of their beliefs.

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I am tired of your false accusations and abuse, but you don't push me off with abuse. So get over it, and stop the abuse and false accusations.

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This is the last time I'll ask Tom

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Thanks goodness! I am glad to hear that you are choosing to stop it.

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I'm done with the fighting, aren't you?

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I haven't started. But I am glad to hear that you are done.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That is your choice. But I do hope that you change your mind before it is too late.

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FYI, I spent 2/3 of my life holding on tightly to that tiny box. God gave me the strength to open the box and let him out.