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Originally Posted by Tuscany

How can you have standards for normal when normal is so subjective?

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Bravo! Well said.

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Originally Posted by Kia

Simple answer: Its wrong and unnatural because it doesn't ever repeat itself in nature. There are no homosexual animals right? Basically when other creatures " mate" there is a male and female. Sex is fundementally for reproduction purposes only; humans made it for enjoyment. If it was right, or how nature intended, there would be other creatures on earth who mate with the same sex as well. I believe homosexuality is a choice; but not always a conscious one ( due to chilhood trauma, rape, etc..)

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Apologies if someone else has already corrected you... but there are homosexuals in just about (if not all) species where there are 2 sexes (at least vertebrates). It occurs with the same ap 10% frequency as in humans.

Bonobos, a species once thought to be the same as chimps, have free sex all the time. It is a matriarchal society and they use sex almost as a greeting, as well as to diffuse arguments. They also don't care which gender they are having sex with - male-male, female-female, male-female.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

Repent and ask for forgiveness and do your best to walk away from that sin and never commit it again.

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JH- you know that I love and respect you. But honestly, as a Catholic this is the biggest issue for me (and I know that our discussion is not about having the church recognize gay marriage), How can the Catholic Church condemn people who are doing nothing but loving another human being? Its not like homosexuals are going on a crazed rant and shooting up the joint. They just want to live, love, and marry like the rest of us.

If the church does not want to recognize the marriage that is fine with me. The US government should though because the government is "for the people, by the people."
And the last time I checked homosexuals were people too.

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If the church does not want to recognize the marriage that is fine with me. The US government should though because the government is "for the people, by the people."
And the last time I checked homosexuals were people too.

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Denying one section of society equal rights, then we can all be denied our rights.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Denying one section of society equal rights, then we can all be denied our rights.

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EXACTLY my point. Thanks for clarifying Tal!

The human is never being denied, their actions are. Society has and can always put limits on actions, wear clothing, sex with minor children and prevoius and in some nations homosexual activity.

Homosexual activity is not a right in the US, it is not promosed in the US, they have all the same actual RIGHTS as anyone else. They just wish to have their sexual desires made into a right. I get so tired of this, I have a "right" no there is no right, Read the US Bill of Rights and see who the Government says gave you any rights, and see what is given, homosexual life style is not listed anywhere. And they enjoy every right everyone else has,

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Homosexual activity is not a right in the US, it is not promosed in the US, they have all the same actual RIGHTS as anyone else. They just wish to have thier sexual desires made into a right.

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Is heterosexual activity a right in the U.S.

Wait... how is "marriage" equal to "sexual desires"?

Seriously--I thought marriage was about love, not sex.

If you tried to tell a heterosexual couple they could not get married because they enjoy fellatio, or anal sex, or whatever---can you imagine the social uproar that would cause? Yet causing two people who love each other not to be able to marry simply because they have homosexual sex is ridiculous.

It's not their "lifestyle" you disapprove of--it's their sexual acts. So if you have no problem with them living together--why should there be a problem with committing to each other?

Heterosexual activity is not a "right" in the US--yet people claim they have the right to marry! Having children is not a right in this country--but try to take that privilege away from people sometime. Having enough to eat is not a "right" in this country--yet try taking away those food stamps sometime. There are a LOT of things in this country that are not "rights", but yet if you tried to take that away from people, there would be outrage.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The human is never being denied, thier actions are. Society has and can always put limits on actions, wear clothing, sex with minor children and prevoius and in some nations homosexual activity.

Homosexual activity is not a right in the US, it is not promosed in the US, they have all the same actual RIGHTS as anyone else. They just wish to have thier sexual desires made into a right. I get so tired of this, I have a "right" no there is no right, Read the US Bill of Rights and see who the Government says gave you any rights, and see what is given, homosexual life style is not listed anywhere. And they enjoy every right everyone else has,

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Apparently you have forgotten a founding tenet - Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

And while some conservatives disagree, I read a right to privacy in the Bill of Rights. The Supreme Court also agreed (suit against state of Conn - senior moment and I can't remember the case name) that the gov has no right interfering in folks bedrooms.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Homosexual activity is not a right in the US, it is not promosed in the US, they have all the same actual RIGHTS as anyone else. They just wish to have thier sexual desires made into a right. I get so tired of this, I have a "right" no there is no right, Read the US Bill of Rights and see who the Government says gave you any rights, and see what is given, homosexual life style is not listed anywhere. And they enjoy every right everyone else has,

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Last time I check, heterosexual marriages weren't based on sexual desires... I'm pretty sure this is an ugly stereotype. For some reason, some people seem think homosexuals just want to have sex. Apparently they're incapable of feeling love?

As for the constitution, it's a shame there aren't any provisions IN the constitution, to CHANGE the constitution. This seems like it might be a good time for that. I mean, that would allow us to give women the right to own land, and to vote. Maybe african americans could be citizens then, too.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Read the US Bill of Rights and see who the Government says gave you any rights, and see what is given, homosexual life style is not listed anywhere. And they enjoy every right everyone else has,

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Is the heterosexual lifestyle listed? Homosexuals do not enjoy every right that everyone else has... I am sorry Fr. Chuck, but I have to disagree.

Talk to my Aunt sometime. She loves her girlfriend, they have been together for years, they have more love and compassion for each other then some parents I interact with at school. They maintain a loving home for their daughter and work hard as social workers. They offer so much to society and yet society denies them the ability to marry. It just makes me so sad.

As I stated in my nature argument... sex was made for reproduction primarily. If you look at the body of a man and woman, they were made to fit together... in order to reproduce. Homosexuality is not natural, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Kia

as I stated in my nature argument... sex was made for reproduction primarily. If you look at the body of a man and woman, they were made to fit together...in order to reproduce. Homosexuality is not natural, sorry.

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So you do not have sex for pleasure?

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Originally Posted by Kia

as I stated in my nature argument... sex was made for reproduction primarily. If you look at the body of a man and woman, they were made to fit together...in order to reproduce. Homosexuality is not natural, sorry.

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So what should we do with people who are born with deformed genitals? Or people who are born sterile? Or people who become sterile as a result of medical treatments? They can't reproduce, they might not even be able to have sex for pleasure. Should they not be afforded the same rights as those who are "normal"?

And how do you explain homosexuality found in the animal world?

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Here's my problem WHENEVER this "discussion" begins - the words "ignorant" and "confused" get thrown at people with opposite points of view. Suddenly it's a racial issue, too. I see no connection between gay unions and bi-racial unions, think it's a stretch, but, hey, maybe it's just me. And, by the way, for a very long time bi-racial unions WERE against the law in some States and people had to fight to change those laws and marry the person they loved.

I digress -

And as far as the legality is concerned - ANY COUPLE, straight, gay, that is together without marriage MUST make legal arrangements for a variety of "what ifs." The gay couple not being "allowed" to make medical decisions for each other is no different from the straight couple, never married, not being "allowed" to make medical decisions for each other. Neither category (gay nor straight) has the edge here.

I believe it's a mistake to throw the "medical decision" (and I've seen in here, on similar threads before, and have said nothing) argument into the discussion.

If you love your partner (again, married or unmarried, whatever the situation) and want that person to make your medical (and possibly legal) decisions PUT IT IN WRITING. If you love someone you owe it to them to protect them when you are too sick to make a decision and they might/could have a fight on their hands.

Mothers, fathers, children, try to step in front of legal spouses and make these decisions all the time - PUT IT IN WRITING. Anyone remember Terri Shiavo? I was MARRIED and we had mutual Powers/Attorney, Living Wills, Medical Authorizations, notarized letters - that's how my husband protected me when I was too grief stricken to focus on anything but him.

The ability to make a medical decision for someone else is NOT a gay/straight issue and should NOT be part of a gay/straight discussion.

Clunk! Off my soapbox!

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Lol... Yes I fully agree with you. The whole medical decisions thing is weak argument. And to connecting gay couples to interatial marriages is a stretch beyond words.

Sassy and Judy-
So you would be good with not having any rights if your husband or wife needed medical attention?

There are always exceptions to the rule, or a few odd instances where nature goes wrong... but those instances a far and in between; and they are out of the person's control. You are asking if homosexuals should be allowed to be married. Basically, a mass group of people who are DECIDING to be with the same sex regardless of what nature intends; and they want the state to validate it to make them feel better. I don't agree. You can do whatever you want behind closed doors; be common law or something, but don't ask for the government to sign on with this UNNATURAL behavior.

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Originally Posted by Kia

There are always exceptions to the rule, or a few odd instances where nature goes wrong....but those instances a far and in between; and they are out of the person's control. You are asking if homosexuals should be allowed to be married. Basically, a mass group of people who are DECIDING to be with the same sex regardless of what nature intends; and they want the state to validate it to make them feel better. I don't agree. You can do whatever you want behind closed doors; be common law or something, but don't ask for the government to sign on with this UNNATURAL behavior.

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Could you answer my question please... you said that sex is for procreation... do you not have sex for pleasure?

My definition of natural is love between two people. It is unnatural to show hate and not accept others.

And I have to take time and validate that article because for all I know it could have been written or influenced by people trying to promote homosexuality as being right. People skew information to be what they want it to be anyway. The media, special interest groups, etc. do it all of the time.

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Originally Posted by Kia

And I have to take time and validate that article because for all I know it could have been written or influenced by people trying to promote homosexuality as being right. People skew information to be what they want it to be anyways. The media, special interest groups, etc., do it all of the time.

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Kia-
Your "side" does the same thing.