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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

If a poll was taken of all the scientists in the world, most would say they believe Darwinism is true not because of fact but because like everybody else, they base most of their opinions on the words of other people.

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Again you show to lack any understanding of what a scientist is, and how a scientist thinks.
I also note that you CLAIM this, but do not provide any REASONING for your claim.

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

A comment from Darwins Black Box - "In private many scientists admit that science has no explaination for the beginning of life...

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"Darwins Black Box" is correct on that. But you forgot to mention that EVOLUTION DOES NOT INCLUDE THE BEGINNING OF LIFE, BUT STARTS WITH THE FIRST LIVING CELL ON EARTH.
Evolution (base : to evolve) needs something living to start with.
You try to include Abiogenesis into the Evolution Theory, something Darwin never claimed.

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Darwin never imagined the exquisitely profound complexity that exists even at the most basic levels of life."

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All Darwin tried to do is explain what he noticed to happen in nature.
You seem to be the one who intends to provide an entire different reason for Darwin's findings.

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

In 2004 the National Geographic described the fossil record as being like "a film of evolution from which 999 of every 1,000 frames have been lost on the cutting-room floor." The remaining "frames" fail to document the process of evolution as anything more than just a theory.

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First of all National Geographic is a popular semi-scientific magazine, not a peer review of scientific reports.
Second : I already stated that the fossil record is incomplete. And I also provided the causes for that.
Thirdly : there is more than sufficient scientific support to uphold evolution as a valid scientific theory.
Forthly : the value and quantity of objective (i.e. valid) evidence supporting the Evolution Theory is by very very far exceeding the valid support for creationism that is mainly based on belief only.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

In several of the digs, they found various things, buildings where after a while some of the bricks no longer used stray, following the exact theme of the Old Testement, There is so much science proof that the Old Testement is true, I can not see anyone with knowledge of it, even doubting the main themes of the storys. They may disagree with what caused the Sea to part, but not the issue of slaves and the such from that time.

Even events like the flood have been proven though flood layers found that showed major parts of the "known" world of that time would have been flooded at some point in history.

So in general, those that don't want to believe will make up thier own "BELIEFS" so they don't have to accept, but in the end, it is all what they BELIEVE, since they can't prove it or show it

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All that this "proves" is that SOME of the statements made in the Bible were correct. But that is nothing new and was never denied. Even thousands of years older religious claims from the Middle East contained statements that were correct. Many of these stories were re-used later in the Bible : The Epic of Gilgamesh for instance was the basis for the story of Noah's ark.
The question is here : do certain correct statements in the Bible support the claim that the entire Bible story is correct ? Of course the answer to that is NO. Every claim in the Bible is another item to be objectively proved, if the Bible wants to be anything more than based on BELIEF !

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

There is so much science proof that the Old Testement is true, I can not see anyone with knowledge of it, even doubting the main themes of the storys. They may disagree with what caused the Sea to part, but not the issue of slaves and the such from that time.

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So much "science proof" ? What do you mean with "science proof" ?

You mean an entire universe being created in 6 days? With two different versions of that creation story in one and the same chapter?
The issue of slaves etc. does not prove anything more than that there were slaves at that time. So what ?

Or do you mean a hateful, revengeful, love lacking, warmonging, murder and rape condoning deity being proof of the existence of the Christian God and the Bible being factual?

:rolleyes:

Yes, it is like saying prove George Washington lived, I can show you bones, how do you prove they are his, statements of people that knew him, they were lies of course, he was our president, they say he was, but I never saw him,

In 2000 years if many of the papers that existed were destroyed one could argue George Washington was just a myth if you don't accept the facts and evidence that was there.

Yes various writings of the flood could basically be used to prove yes there was a flood. Writings from Babylon from Xisuhrus refer to the Library of Nineveh before and after the flood

From the era of Hammurabi, three separate tablets were found that has the words Jahwe (Jehovah) is God.

Dr Speiser, University PA in 1932 found a Seal dating back to @ 3500 BC that gives part of the story of Adam and Eve, and has been referred to as the Adam and eve seal

And since The Greek, Chinese, indoo, Persian, Mongolians all have similar traditions of a adam and eve event it is very likely they all came from a similar event, and were retold to fix their cultures, which all point back to the actual event.

Showing from the Weld Prism and the Nippur Tablets, they show a histroy of 10 kings that reigned over this area

And you have the flood deposits at UR, Kish, Fara all pointing to a large regioinal flood ( the entire known world)

You have the tablets from Assur banipal at Nineveh which parallel to the bible account of the flood


Tower of Bable, tower remains found with inscription at Borsippa 10 miles south of Babylon

And one could go on and on and on from Sodom to so much more

But the real issues is not the flood, not the creation, not even Moses in the desert, all of the things that can be more proved if anyone wants to actually "BELEIVE"
The real thing is that Jesus was born, and died and came back, and by faith and belief in him we are saved and our souls will live
That is the entire message of the 1000's of pages in the bible, one simple idea and message. In that you will either have faith or you will not.

I can prove with 1000 writings things from the bible, but that will not do you any good, a person with a closed heart will not accept even if Jesus Christ hisself appeared before them.

Chuck,

No one denies places and buildings existed. Even floods happened, heck they still do. The problem is,,

That's how story telling works. How many movies do you watch that takes place in actual cities and buildings? Just because those places exist, does that make the story true?

You think that kind of story telling didn't happen back then?

That's why, as I have explained, you find evidence of some things and not all. That's why we have evidence of enemies but not the heroes. It's classic story telling, hell it's Forest Gump thousands and thousands of years earlier... lol

The OT is filled with stories for people thousands of years a go who obviously went through a lot of hard times. These stories were made to give people hope, and something to believe in during times they had nothing much to believe in. These stories were not made for people who know better, who can just get in a car and drive to a hospital when they are sick. We actually live past 35, we don't need tales of long life. We don't need to get on our knees and repent every time we hear thunder, because we know it's just a storm. If people live near a volcano and it erupts they know to get the heck out of there and start a new life somewhere else, they don't hide under a rock to die because it's the will of an angry God. The Bible is a collection of stories that deals with a certain culture.

That's it, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The real thing is that Jesus was born, and died and came back, and by faith and beleif in him we are saved and our souls will live.

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With that I agree : for Christianity that is what it is all about.
But that also means that it is less relevant if the universe was created in 6 days, or if the "Adam and Eve in Paradise" story has to be taken literally, or Noah's flood was regional or worldwide.
For Christianity the important thing is that Jesus was born. That is the true Christian focal point. All the rest is less relevant. And that is also clear from the Christian infighting on every other item in the Bible. A couple of main Christian directions, with a split into 2500+ Christian denominations are the direct result of that realization.
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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I can prove with 1000 writings things from the bible...

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1000 writings? What writings? What value have writings? I clearly have always been mentioning OBJECTIVE SUPPORTING EVIDENCE as the deciding factor to get the Bible accepted as factual. Not for 1000 items, but for every item in the Bible!
Nothing else will do for the deciding term "FACTUAL" in the name of this topic. Note that this topic is not named "How can we prove 1000 items in the Bible", but "How can we prove the Bible is factual"?
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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

... but that will not do you any good, a person with a closed heart will not accept even if Jesus Christ hisself appeared before them.

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Another suggestion based on your personal evaluation of the Bible message, and influenced by your opinion on me.
How can you KNOW what my reaction would be if that happened? That's not for you to suggest what I will decide upon with your biased opinions. My credo here states : I believe it as soon as I see it! So I just wait for Jesus to appear. And if that happens it's up to me to decide!
CREDENDOVIDIS !!!

;)

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Originally Posted by Onan

Thats it, plain and simple.

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Excellent point, Onan!
;)

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And since The Greek, Chinese, indoo, Persian, Mongolians all have similar traditions of a adam and eve event it is very likely they all came from a similar event, and were retold to fix their cultures, which all point back to the actual event.

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Retelling the same story, doesn't mean its true. No matter how many times you tell it. Some interesting things were talked about in ancient times, but the fact we still have doubts of people, and events in modern times, is truly telling. Even the fact that an entire belief system, was based on a martyr of his ancient times, after his death. Not knocking the religion, but it was done by man, and evolved by man. That's enough to take it with a grain of salt, but that's just me. As we discover more evidence of a time long ago, its obvious, that this cycle was repeated through out the world, and not just in the middle east, as very real evidence of civilizations going back tens of thousands of years, all over the world, is a very real fact that cannot be swept under the rug, and has to be accounted for. I think its too early in mans world, to say with certainty what's a fact, and what isn't. Now believe what ever you want, that's personal, but to make it fact, because that's what you say, I don't think so. That's too much like repeating a lie, the more you say it, the more you believe it. The amazing thing, I find no facts in this whole thread, that proves or disproves anything the OP has asked. What's wrong with saying "I don't know, but I believe", that would at least be the truth.

I'll tell you what I believe based on what I see.

I believe there is a greater being who put his thoughts, instructions and advice into writing by means of some 40 different men over a period of over 1,600 years without so much as even one contradiction. For me that is truly incredible.

I look out the window and see the trees, birdlife, blades of grass, animals... all living things and I know because of logic that they had to be made by some higher intelligence, just as my watch or my computer was.

One scientist, Francis Hitching even writes that "when you look for links between major groups of animals they simply aren't there" which matches what the bible says - that a family reproduces according to its kind. (Gen 1:11,12)

I believe one needs more faith when not accepting the belief of a creator and His book than one who does, after all when looking back to that 'first cell' why and how was it there in the first place?

What I see around me every day is all the proof I need in order to know that the bible is factual. It gives the explanation of HOW we originated, WHY we originated and even WHAT our purpose is.

People have the ability to believe all sorts, but logic should give you the real answer.

:)

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

For me that is truly incredible.

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in·cred·i·ble
adj.
1. So implausible as to elicit disbelief

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Me too.

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People have the ability to believe all sorts, but logic should give you the real answer.

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Whose logic are we speaking of? Logic without facts, are just glorified opinions.

Yes, what is so silly is the people who could not believe in a loving but strict God can believe in the ideas like I read on Yahoo yesterday where life was suppose to have started now, from something like a jelly fish, as the first real life form..

So if you will only believe when you see, where did all of the material that made up the earth and the planets and the suns all come from, what made it, how did they get into balance with each other
And how did life start from nothing and then that one "life" became all of the fish, the birds, the reptiles and the animals, and it also would have become the grass and the trees.
I mean that does not even sound realistic at all. But people would believe this with no facts, no proof, but then not believe in a God.

The real fact is that they don't want there to be a God, if there is, they will be judged, and they will have to answer to someone besides thierself,

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

I believe there is a greater being who put his thoughts, instructions and advice into writing by means of some 40 different men over a period of over 1,600 years without so much as even one contradiction. For me that is truly incredible.

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This is always one, I find interesting. Even if there were no contradictions in the bible some people would say otherwise but why does that mean something. Anyone can read a story and add to it without contradiction and since some writings didn't make the cut to be included into they bible why would you not throw out the stories that contradict each other if I was putting together a book of stories I'd throw out the ones that didn't match.

Actually I know without any doubt 100 percent there is a God, I have seen him in action, in direct miricles, healings that happened as we watched, and even events where demons were cast from a person.
100's of miricles over the years and have seen the power that God can do in peoples like.

So yes I have seen, but I believed first and after I believed, I saw, so there is no doubt at all that God lives, that Jesus lives and that his word is true.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Actually I know without any doubt 100 percent there is a God, I have seen him in action, in direct miricles, healings that happened as we watched, and even events where demons were cast from a person.
100's of miricles over the years and have seen the power that God can do in peoples like.

So yes I have seen, but I beleived first and after I beleived, I saw, so there is no doubt at all that God lives, that Jesus lives and that his word is true.

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This is where this kind of debate usually leads to. There is not really much one can argue against this without calling someone a liar and I won't do that. I will say this though, Benny Hinn claims the same things and he's a known con artist who has been exposed more than once. This guy claims he's seen people come back to life in Africa. There is only one thing I have to say about claims of this nature. In this day and age, why don't we have any of these miracles on tape/dvd/ something??

In this day and age we shouldn't have to take the word of someone else. We should be able to see these things for ourselves. In this day and age faith would not be needed if some of these miracles could end up being recorded somehow. How is it if all these things are happening, we don't have ANY footage of it??

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Originally Posted by michealb

This is always one, I find interesting. Even if there were no contradictions in the bible some people would say otherwise but why does that mean something. Anyone can read a story and add to it without contradiction and since some writings didn't make the cut to be included into they bible why would you not throw out the stories that contradict each other if I was putting together a book of stories I'd throw out the ones that didn't match.

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First of all there were well more than 40 writers. We can't forget all the writers that added their own flavor to the rewrites and translations.

Also the Bible is hardly without contradictions.

If the Bible is without contradiction I ask one of the believers to tell me how Judas died?
Who killed Saul?
How many children did Michal the daughter of Saul have?
Who was Josiah's successor?
Does God ever tempt his children?
Has any man seen God?

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Originally Posted by Onan

This is where this kind of debate usually leads to. There is not really much one can argue against this without calling someone a liar and I won't do that. I will say this though, Benny Hinn claims the same things and he's a known con artist who has been exposed more than once. This guy claims he's seen people come back to life in Africa. There is only one thing I have to say about claims of this nature. In this day and age, why don't we have any of these miracles on tape/dvd/ something???

In this day and age we shouldn't have to take the word of someone else. We should be able to see these things for ourselves. In this day and age faith would not be needed if some of these miracles could end up being recorded somehow. How is it if all these things are happening, we don't have ANY footage of it???

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Hi Onan,
As a believer but a non christian, I would just like to say that even if a miracle was to be recorded and shown, there would be those who will believe and those will not believe.

The sceptics will remain sceptics and call it a trick or something made up... it has always been that way and will always remain so.
Those who believe see miracles in everyday life while those who do not believe in an Almighty deem it to be an advancement in technology or coincidence or just something unexplainable.

Either way... the debate will go on.

It's hard to sort it all out. The best advice I can think of is to get out the phone book, look up a church near you, and call the preacher, rabbi, priect etc. and set up an appointment and discuss this with him/her.

Yes, there are many religious sects and most of them believe that they are right and are the only ones going to heaven. Narrow minded folks sometimes do this. I hope to live by my own faith and priniciples so that I meet the criteria for eternal life, and once I get there, and if any of this still matters, I'll ask God. We humans get all screwed up when we either try to elevate ourselves to His level or rationalize Him down to ours.

Don't give up on God or yourself. It OK to question and challenge. Regardless and as a friend once said, "May I live my life to be all that Christ would have me be and half of what my dog thinks I am." Good advise. Might give it a try.

Just chuck the bible and the fanatical adherents and live a good life.

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The sceptics will remain sceptics and call it a trick or something made up... it has always been that way and will always remain so.

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Your probably right, but at least if this stuff started popping up hear and there on the news or something with real news cameras some skeptics may quiet down a bit. I wouldn't believe it if I caught the footage on TBN or a Benny Hinn broadcast, but I would view with an open mind if an actual news crew filmed it and had back ground of the person healed.

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40 different men over a period of over 1,600 years without so much as even one contradiction.

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I guess that explains the many denominations of Christianity, they all agree on everything.