Your 2009 interpretation of English words. And some of us have told you those words were mistranslated and/or have been equated with current fundamentalist attitudes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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Your 2009 interpretation of English words. And some of us have told you those words were mistranslated and/or have been equated with current fundamentalist attitudes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The historic understanding of Koine Greek. Perhaps you skipped over the post where I provided the translation from one the foremost Lexicons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Like I said at the time, given the choice between someone's opinion and that of recognized experts in Koine Greek, I must stand with the experts. You and everyone else is welcome to make their choice.Quote:
And some of us have told you those words were mistranslated and/or have been equated with current attitudes.
That doesn't make it false. Here's another claim that is not found in the Bible: "78+57=135". It's true, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I already told you, several times, that all you need to do is look at the Oxford Greek-English Lexicon. It's the one scholars use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Based upon that alone, it is unsubstantiated speculation. Why would anyone want to accuse Paul of a sin for which no evidence exists? And why would anyone want to suggest that God allowed Paul to be given a sinful orientation to keep Him humble, in contradiction to His word?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Please just provide some substantiation for this claim and then we can move forward.
And I already provided you with the actual quotes from a Lexicon used by scholars / experts / translators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Where's the sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Homosexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
BEING homosexual isn't any more sinful than being heterosexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Can you substantiate the claim that he was heterosexual?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Unlike you, I don't regard sexual orientation as sinful. You seem to think that just by virtue of being attracted to men Paul would been sinning, even if he never acted on it. I don't think Wondergirl take that view. It's my understanding that Wondergirl has suggested not that Paul had sex with a man but that he may have been attracted to a man or men. I don't see any reason to regard that as sinful.
God told us otherwise. You can, of course disagree with Him, but given a choice between your opinion, and God's word - sorry but I will have to take God's word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Now we're back to the interpretations of words. We've done this part already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I don't need to. That is How God made humans - male and female.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
When an accusation is made that Paul was guilty of a specific sin, then that is what needs to be substantiated.
NOT God's word. It's what you want God's word to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes, the experts interpretation, vs the one used by you and Akoue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I take God's word at what it says. It is quite clear - check it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No, the experts' interpretation vs. the 2009 definition you want to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Tom, we beat this horse dead already. Akoue gave you the Greek understanding and definitions a day or so ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Let's get back to reality. I posted the information from one of the foremost lexicons, and you have provided your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Right, God made humans male and female. That doesn't speak to sexual orientation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What sin. By your own account, the BAGD (not BGAD) says that "arsenokoitai" *can* mean males who PRACTICE homosexuality. That's different from have a homosexual orientation. So even if we go with your preferred source, merely being gay isn't a sin; it's the acts that would be sinful. So Wondergirl isn't accusing Paul of committing a sin.
He gave me his opinion, which disagrees with the experts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Person opinions, as interesting as they are are not as compelling. Perhaps you like to accept whatever he says as better than what scripture and the experts say, but I am not so easily swayed.
His opinion??Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Roll with me here for a minute, Tom.
God created a perfect world and created perfect creatures for it. Right?
First of all, I've said many times that the word "arsenokoitai" gets used in different ways. It was also used for masturbation and for anything "unnatural"--which could mean any number of things, including going to a boy prostitute (malakos) for sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Second, the BAGD isn't the last word on anything. The very fact (which I feel I've pointed out before) that there is disagreement over the meaning of "arsenokoitai" would seem to suggest that it's not at all unambiguous. I made the same point on another thread recently: If Paul had wanted to be clear about condemning homosexuality in general, he could easily have done so. He chose to use this specific word, and in a clause in which he condemns young male *prostitutes*, in a letter addressed to Corinth, which was known not for homosexuality but for prostitution--male and female prostitution.
Really? How would you expects homosexuals to multiply? Why did God declare homosexuality a sin if He created it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
BTW, it is BGAD - it is sitting right in front of me and that is the common abbreviation (unless of course your opinion is that everyone else is wrong on that also.Quote:
What sin. By your own account, the BAGD (not BGAD) says that "arsenokoitai" *can* mean males who PRACTICE homosexuality. That's different from have a homosexual orientation. So even if we go with your preferred source, merely being gay isn't a sin; it's the acts that would be sinful. So Wondergirl isn't accusing Paul of committing a sin.
As for the practice of homosexuality, since an orientation towards sin is also a sin according to scripture, why is homosexuality so special that it gets a special exemption?
Well, surely you don't mean to suggest that every human being is to have offspring. Many can't. Don't think I said that God created homosexuality. I was just pointing out that what you said wasn't to the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
BGAD it is, then. Most of us who have been at the for a while refer to it as "BAGD" since that how it was known for years.Quote:
BTW, it is BGAD - it is sitting right in front of me and that is the common abbreviation (unless of course your opinion is that everyone else is wrong on that also.
As for the practice of homosexuality, since an orientation towards sin is also a sin according to scripture, why is homosexuality so special that it gets a special exemption?
The orientation toward food isn't a sin, but many think gluttony is. The orientation toward sex isn't a sin, but lust is. As is adultery. Is there a specific passage where the Bible says that sexual orientation can be sinful. To be clear, is there a place where it speaks of orientation in such a way as to distinguish between orientation and act? If not, I'd have to say you're making unBiblical claims.
I agree, it sickens me for anyone to suggest it. Whatever Paul's "thorn" was it wasn't a sin. The Lord Jesus told Paul that he would suffer for HIM. Paul lived for the Lord and he suffered for the Lord Jesus... he endured hardship all for the Glory of the LORD. The mere suggestion that he suffered scorn and humilation because he was a homosexual is so carnal minded. If Paul learned one thing, he learned it WASN'T about HIM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So you believe being, simply being, a homosexual is a sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
"Us"??Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I thought that we were discussing homosexuality, not the propagation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
You are welcome to call it what you wish.Quote:
BGAD it is, then. Most of us who have been at the for a while refer to it as "BAGD" since that how it was known for years.
[quote]The orientation toward food isn't a sin, but many think gluttony is. The orientation toward sex isn't a sin, but lust is.[quote]
I asked once before but did not get an answer. Maybe you can define what you think an orientation is.
Thanks. I agree that there will always be those who will find a way to justify their views regardless of what scripture says.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Will you accept Wikipedia's definition? -- Sexual orientation refers to "an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes." (my underline)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Having homosexual tendencies without acting on it? no. I don't think God made us to be homosexual though. He made us male and female and something is wrong when we are attracted to the same sex. He wouldn't have given Paul a sexual orientation that is contrary to His will for him. NO WAY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Ok then. Let's go back to my post that was ignored. Did God create a perfect world and perfect creatures to live in it?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I am starting with looking at what an orientation (generic) is rather than getting into specifics at this point. I fear that trying to get into this to fast without establishing the basis first will only result in more confusion. Let's try to set a basis for understanding first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What do you believe an "orientation" is?
Yes he did... and then sin entered in...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
This is a discussion board without ratings. You have no business coming on here (as a moderator!! ) and giving approval ("great job") to one of the parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I will accept Wikipedia's definition of sexual orientation as posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I understood him to be coming on here as a participant giving his opinion, just as you have been doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It is interesting how you refuse to answer my question each time that I ask it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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