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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Morality is not only found in religion. It's found in community and society, not the will of the fittest.

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I agree with you that morality can be found outside of Christianity.

But the question is not whether morality can be found but how is it defined. Within Christianity, there is an unmovable standard. Some people may add their own bits to it, but that does not change the standard.

If you go by the community and society, the standard can and will change. We see that over time and we see that when we look at different societies and communities in the world today.

That's right if we go by the unchanging morals of the bible we would have such great morals as
2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he come in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he be married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master give him a wife and she bear him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 But if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maid-servant, she shall not go out as the men-servants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath espoused her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a foreign people he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he espouse her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three things unto her, then shall she go out for nothing, without money.

So yea boo changing community morals. Boo not having slaves. Boo treating women as equal.

We would obviously be better of with the bible morals than with changing community ones.

Do you really buy into your own rhetoric or are you just joking with us TJ3?

Hey, mich, how about fast forwarding to the teachings of Christ?

So that is why Christians ended slavery in 30 AD. Oh wait they didn't. In fact they continued to claim that god gave them the right to own slaves right up to the 1860s and continued to treat women as property until the 1950s.

How about Luke 12:47?
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

NT says if your servant doesn't do your will it's okay to beat him. Good thing you Christians base your moral on these non-changing morals. We wouldn't want our servants not doing our will and think that they wouldn't get a beating.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Certainly you're entitled to your opintion, but I fully, 100% disagree with you.

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Yes, I have an entitlement to an opinion. I'll avail myself of that opinion whether you agree. To me it's like the science of mathematics, the correctness being black and white.


Immorality: “The result is inevitable; a corrupt generation necessarily begets a revolutionary generation…Freethought begets freemorals or immorality. Restraint is thrown off, and a free rein given to the passions. Who thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases… intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice versa. 1886, Dr. Don Felix Sarda Y Salvany, El Liberalismo es Pecado

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Morality is not only found in religion. It's found in community and society, not the will of the fittest. You make it sound like a dictatorship - the man in charge sets the morals - but that's not how things work in functioning societies. For example, it's not good for society if we go around squashing people's rights and killing people who wear red shirts. Those things make society bad. So, we don't do them. Are morals subjective? Sure, some of them are. Many Christians think premarital sex is wrong, I think there's nothing wrong with it. But the BIG morals - the one's that legislate the world we live in; those come about through humanity - "god" is not required.

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Yes, theological morality is founded only in our religious faith. Catholics hold morality based on Divine law to be objective in nature. Morality needs a standard or a guide for intelligent action; putting forward an end, a right order, and defines inferior principles to achieve the stated end.

There is a secular sense of morality, but it not quite what I'd call morality; instead it's what is found in the positive law (laws made by men). Those laws we sometimes think of as being different from natural law (those laws set by nature) and the tenets of our Catholic faith, God's law. Positive law is made for the common good in regard to some individual work to otherwise rule and measure. In addition, positive law is for the purpose of directing a community's affairs. Human law is ordained by man, not God, and pertains to justice between men and as such is subjective in nature. Thus we find morals based solely on positive law to be mutable and subjective.

Conversely, virtuous morals derived from the Divine law, ordained by God for His relation with men in this world and the next. “The moral virtues set in good order the acts of the reason in reference to the interior passions and exterior actions.” St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica Part 2, I Q100, 2. We find some of these moral virtues in our Declaration of Independence as “certain inalienable rights.” Divine law is an order of law higher than that of positive law and as such we find the derived morals immutable, unchangeable, and as such are objective.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

You might think your statements aren't misinformed opinion, but I still say they are.

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I know my statements are not malformed. I've taken the time to become informed, limited only by my abilities.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

You are essentially saying without god one can't be moral.

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I'm saying without God one cannot have virtuous morals as I've tried to define above.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

If that's not your intention, you might want to revise your thoughts - because that's how it's coming out.

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I hope it came out as I intended. Based on your objections I'd say I came reasonably close.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by michealb

That's right if we go by the unchanging morals of the bible we would have such great morals as
2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he come in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he be married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master give him a wife and she bear him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 But if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maid-servant, she shall not go out as the men-servants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath espoused her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a foreign people he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he espouse her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three things unto her, then shall she go out for nothing, without money.

So yea boo changing community morals. Boo not having slaves. Boo treating women as equal.

We would obviously be better of with the bible morals than with changing community ones.

Do you really buy into your own rhetoric or are you just joking with us TJ3?

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Michael:


Look up abolition and Wilberforce or the Quakers.

Slavery is a human invention that crosses all cultures. You can't just attribute it to Christians and the bible, because it is a widespread phenomenon.

Were not the Jews slaves to other peoples like the Eygptians?

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Originally Posted by inthebox

The absolute truth, Cred, is that you attack those you disagree with, and your post is OSE of it.
Hitler truly believed in a superior race, eugenics, which fits in with the theory of evolution. Is Hitler's truth any more true than yours or mine? Who is to judge who is misinterpreting when there are no absolutes?

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I note that you exceed Joe's comments with an even higher level of BS!!
You managed to drag even Hitler into the "discussion".
And that in a topic that asks itself the question "What is Truth ?"

Well : one thing is completely sure now : neither you nor Joe are - by your actions in this topic - capable of posting an honest anwer to that question.

How sad !!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

That's only a greater argument that we get our morals from culture not from the bible.

Thank you for agreeing with me, that people have always gotten their morals from the culture they are in not the bible.

Cred:

When there is no absolute truth - Hitler / eugenics / genocide cannot be viewed as good or bad / true or false - because it is up to fallible individuals to interpret their reality as you have put it.

Again

The absolute truth, Cred, is that you attack those you disagree with, and your post is OSE of it

I'll welcome a discussion on Hitler being a good Catholic if you want to post it. We shouldn't take up ClassyT's thread with it though.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Cred: When there is no absolute truth - Hitler / eugenics / genocide cannot be viewed as good or bad / true or false - because it is up to fallible individuals to interpret their reality as you have put it....

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I NEVER even suggested that. You can rephrase your words. But you can't take back that you referred what I stated to something that had nothing to do with what I posted.

All I posted was that in Linguistics truth is something that is linked to reality, and therefore it requires OSE for what is stated.

And in contrast we have "religious "truth" : a wild claim that seems to support whatever is suggested, but that lacks completely any format of OSE.

Without any reason you have connected the content of my original post to Hitler, to eugenics, and to genocide.
Talk about morals and ethics !!!
If you were anything of an example of a standard for an average Christian, I am glad not to be a Christian.

And that dear box is the TRUTH !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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That is what you believe Cred - your own interpretation of your own reality - Enjoy

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Originally Posted by inthebox

That is what you believe Cred - your own interpretation of your own reality - Enjoy

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Box : it's not here about what I believe. It is about what everyone can see you have been doing here...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes, I have an entitlement to an opinion. I’ll avail myself of that opinion whether you agree. To me it’s like the science of mathematics, the correctness being black and white.

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Why are you getting snippy? I said you are entitled to your opinion, we don't have to agree on your thoughts.

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Yes, theological morality is founded only in our religious faith. Catholics hold morality based on Divine law to be objective in nature. Morality needs a standard or a guide for intelligent action; putting forward an end, a right order, and defines inferior principles to achieve the stated end.

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Theological morality? You're going to throw that out there so you can "win"? Well, duh, non-Christians don't have theological morality.

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There is a secular sense of morality, but it not quite what I’d call morality; instead it’s what is found in the positive law (laws made by men). Those laws we sometimes think of as being different from natural law (those laws set by nature) and the tenets of our Catholic faith, God’s law. Positive law is made for the common good in regard to some individual work to otherwise rule and measure. In addition, positive law is for the purpose of directing a community’s affairs. Human law is ordained by man, not God, and pertains to justice between men and as such is subjective in nature. Thus we find morals based solely on positive law to be mutable and subjective.

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If this is what you believe, you must live in a constant state of fear. What with all the people who have only secular morals running around. You do know Christians are outnumbered, in this world, right?

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I know my statements are not malformed. I’ve taken the time to become informed, limited only by my abilities.

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There's a key word in that statement...

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I’m saying without God one cannot have virtuous morals as I’ve tried to define above.

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You're saying that unless someone fits your very narrow definition of "moral" they are immoral.

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I hope it came out as I intended. Based on your objections I’d say I came reasonably close.

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Yup. Sure did. I'm not sure that would be something I'd be proud of though. Whatever. You "win", this coversation isn't likely to go anywhere. I'm done.

Duplicate

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Originally Posted by michealb

That's right if we go by the unchanging morals of the bible we would have such great morals as

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I have seen all these before, but what is interesting is that I never see any atheists who take the time to look at these in context and often they quote things which are either not even in the Bible, or are mis-quoted, or partial verses.

[QUOTE=michealb;1371289]So that is why Christians ended slavery in 30 AD. Oh wait they didn't. In fact they continued to claim that god gave them the right to own slaves right up to the 1860s and continued to treat women as property until the 1950s. [/quotes]

It is interesting that atheists always point to those who mis-use Christianity rather than deal honestly with the Bible. Like this one:

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How about Luke 12:47?
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

NT says if your servant doesn't do your will it's okay to beat him. Good thing you Christians base your moral on these non-changing morals. We wouldn't want our servants not doing our will and think that they wouldn't get a beating.

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Notice how carefully this deception is? He says that the NT says it, but what he doesn't say is that this describes what happens in the secular world. And indeed the context is not what such deceptive people claim:

Let's read the context:

Luke 12:45-48
45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
NKJV

Note that it is speaking of the punishment which would typically be meted out in the secular world to a servants who beat other servants.

So why don't you enlighten us then. Please explain how the those aren't rules on how to treat your slaves or tell everyone that they aren't really in the bible. It's unlikely that most of the believers will look it up if you say they aren't there.

Tom, you're so fond of bible verse. What about these;

"If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, 'I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin..." (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)

"But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)
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"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." (Mark 9:43)
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"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. " (1 Peter 2:18)
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This is the book that I'm supposed to follow, to obey? This is "God's word"?

Not my God.

And more about slavery.

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."

—Exodus 21:20-21 (RSV)
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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Why are you getting snippy? I said you are entitled to your opinion; we don't have to agree on your thoughts.

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I don’t know how to soft peddle; so if my arguments came off only as snippy, I must’ve done something wrong.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Theological morality? You're going to throw that out there so you can "win"? Well, duh, non-Christians don't have theological morality.

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Moral Theology (link) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Moral Theology

My contest isn’t with you, so you don’t have to worry about winning or losing.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

If this is what you believe, you must live in a constant state of fear. What with all the people who have only secular morals running around. You do know Christians are outnumbered, in this world, right?

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Let’s see, I’ve seen war first hand, I’ve seen terrorism first hand, and I’ve seen a host of disasters first hand, and I may see worse in the future. But, I've learned that one of my major concers is what could be in the next life if this one isn’t done right. Since you don’t believe in religious mumbo jumbo you don’t need to worry about the next life. Just think, when your time is up, well, it’s just lights out, isn’t it? Just like a switch; lights out. No more anything whatsoever. Now that’s a terrifying thought!

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

I'm done.

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You may be finished with me. But you’re a long way from finishing this fight. I hope you win.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, you're so fond of bible verse. What about these;

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Alty,

I know where this lengthy list of so called contradictions and problems exists on internet and that is another timewaster. I used to spend days and weeks refuting these one at a time, but you know it is a complete waste of time. Here is why:

- Those who are really interested and care, read the context and in 99% of the cases, refuting these requires no more than to read one verse before or after. A few others requires a bit more reading. Those who care will usual;ly read the context because they are interested.

- Those who are not interested will just keep tossing these out a few at a time to waste the time of those who fall for it.

BTW, this very thing is one of the topics that I speaking on and I plan to use the example that michael posted to show those attending how these verses are taken out of context for this purpose.

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Not my God.

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We agree. The God that you follow is NOT the God of the Bible. But I hope that some day, you will really open the Bible to read it for what it says, not what websites tell you it says, not what the Catholic Church, or indeed any denomination told you to believe, but what the Bible really says.

Tom,

I have read the bible. When I was young, before Catholic school put a bad taste in my mouth, I read the bible with an open mind and an open heart. My mother believed in the bible, so did my father, and I was encouraged to read it as well.

I would ask questions about the things I read, why there were so many hateful and hurtful things in a book that was supposedly written by God. My parents didn't have any answers.

When I went to confirmation classes (I was Lutheran, you must attend 2 years of confirmation classes, I started at age 12 and yes, I was confirmed in the Lutheran religion) I asked my pastor, a man that I still trust and adore to this day, the same questions that I asked my Mom and Dad. He said that the bible was just a base, that he didn't believe that God wrote it, just men who had their own idea about what is right and wrong. There are good lessons in the bible, but it's not to be taken literally.

Why write it then? Why use it as the basis for your belief? If it's not to be taken literally, then how are we to take it?

Just so you know, that pastor was kicked out of our church because he didn't agree with what the higher ups wanted him to preach.

The quotes I posted, well, reading one verse before or after isn't really going to change what was said. Or am I to believe that the verses before and after will actually make what I posted not as bad as it sounds? They didn't stone women to death if they weren't virgins on their wedding night? They didn't beat their slaves? I don't think anything could make those words that I posted okay.

I don't have an english written bible in my house anymore, only the German one that was handed down from generation to generation on my mothers side. The script is very old and illegible, I keep it for sentimental purposes.

I have no wish to spend money on a bible just to re-read it for the 100th time. I doubt very much that I'd have a different reaction to it this time around.

As for your God and my God. I think they are one and the same, only I don't think he's the cruel unforgiving God that the bible depicts, because I don't think that he had a hand in the bible.

Why put so much credence in a man written book? I never did understand that.

Did you miss the part
- Jesus talking to the Samaritan
- Jesus intervening on the behalf
Adulterous woman
- Jesus dying on the cross for our sins
- Jesus "forgive them" while dying on the cross
- God, through Moses, bringing the Jews from Egyptian slavery.

If you question God about "cruelty" in the Bible, do question man's own cruelty to each other through out the ages?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom,
I would ask questions about the things I read, why there were so many hateful and hurtful things in a book that was supposedly written by God. My parents didn't have any answers.

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First, obviously you mis-understood what you were reading, probably because you were a child, and your parents for whatever reason did not know the Bible well enough, either.

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When I went to confirmation classes (I was Lutheran, you must attend 2 years of confirmation classes, I started at age 12 and yes, I was confirmed in the Lutheran religion) I asked my pastor, a man that I still trust and adore to this day, the same questions that I asked my Mom and Dad. He said that the bible was just a base, that he didn't believe that God wrote it, just men who had their own idea about what is right and wrong. There are good lessons in the bible, but it's not to be taken literally.

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Clearly not a man who knew his Bible either.

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Just so you know, that pastor was kicked out of our church because he didn't agree with what the higher ups wanted him to preach.

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Based upon what you said, I would agree that he was not qualified to be a pastor.

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The quotes I posted, well, reading one verse before or after isn't really going to change what was said. Or am I to believe that the verses before and after will actually make what I posted not as bad as it sounds? They didn't stone women to death if they weren't virgins on their wedding night? They didn't beat their slaves? I don't think anything could make those words that I posted okay.

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And Michael false claimed that the Bible endorsed beating servants for merely not being prepared, when the truth was virtually the exact opposite when the surrounding verses were read. So yes, taking a verse or words out of context can make it say the exact opposite.

I would have to ask - why would anyone do so, especially posting long lists of such misquotes on a website unless it was to deceive or mislead?

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I don't have an english written bible in my house anymore, only the German one that was handed down from generation to generation on my mothers side. The script is very old and illegible, I keep it for sentimental purposes.

I have no wish to spend money on a bible just to re-read it for the 100th time. I doubt very much that I'd have a different reaction to it this time around.

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No need to buy - Blue Letter Bible - Homepage

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As for your God and my God. I think they are one and the same, only I don't think he's the cruel unforgiving God that the bible depicts, because I don't think that he had a hand in the bible.

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My God and your god are clearly much different. And you do not know my God if you think that He is cruel. That is why I say that it is important that you read the Bible. Why would God come down from heaven as a man for the sole reason to die at the hands of, and for those who were in rebellion against Him, including those who wanted to kill Him?

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Why put so much credence in a man written book? I never did understand that.

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Why do you say that it is man written? Oh yeah, you refuse to accept any evidence which disagrees!

Obviously, the Biblical God is cruel and jealous, e.g. demanding that Abraham kill his own son. Why put cruelty in quotes?

Natural cruelty (among humans and in nature) has nothing to do with this. God is the one who is supposed to be all powerful and merciful and yet obviously is not. Nobody ever said that being ripped apart by African hunting dogs was not a cruel death.

But God is supposed to be perfect and all powerful. An all powerful being has no reason to be cruel to helpless humans or, for that matter, his specially created zebras eaten daily by hyenas or dogs, or caterpillars eaten alive by birds. It's like beating a infant. Only the weak are deliberately cruel to the helpless. Any being who could stop that and did not, is cruel, without a doubt.

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Originally Posted by asking

Obviously, the Biblical God is cruel and jealous, e.g. demanding that Abraham kill his own son. Why put cruelty in quotes?

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Where did God demand that Abraham kill his son? Read the whole story, don't just take out the bits that you like. That is not dealing honestly with the Bible. How would you like what you write to be treated in like fashion?

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Natural cruelty (among humans and in nature) has nothing to do with this. God is the one who is supposed to be all powerful and merciful and yet obviously is not. Nobody ever said that being ripped apart by African hunting dogs was not a cruel death.

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What has this got to do with anything?

BTW, you do know that death and killing entered the world only when man sinned, don't you? Why blame God for the actions of men?

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First, obviously you mis-understood what you were reading, probably because you were a child, and your parents for whatever reason did not know the Bible well enough, either.

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The last time I read the bible I was 24 years old. I did read it cover to cover with an open mind. Trust me, I was old enough and wise enough to understand the words therein.

As for my parents, my father was born and raised Catholic, the only reason he became Lutheran was because the Catholic church wouldn't allow them to marry unless my mother converted to Catholicism. She refused, they sent my parents away telling them that if they weren't married in the Catholic church then they weren't really married, that they'd be living in sin and all their children would be bastards.

So they married in the Lutheran Church. My father didn't become Lutheran until years later because he had lost respect for the Catholic Church. So why send me to a Catholic school? I asked to go, all my friends were going to that school and I didn't want to be separated from them.

My parents knew the bible, just like you. They were raised to believe in the words written in the bible. When I questioned it they couldn't give me answers because there are none. They had been told all their lives that the bible was the word of God, even though they read the words in the bible, they never thought to question it because it was firmly ingrained into them that the Bible was not to be questioned, only obeyed.

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Why do you say that it is man written? Oh yeah, you refuse to accept any evidence which disagrees!

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40 men wrote the bible. Men, not God. So how am I wrong in saying that it's a man written book?

Dear Alty :

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Originally Posted by Tj3

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, you're so fond of bible verse. What about these ....

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I know where this lengthy list of so called contradictions and problems exists on internet and that is another timewaster. I used to spend days and weeks refuting these one at a time, but you know it is a complete waste of time. Here is why:
- Those who are really interested and care, read the context and in 99% of the cases, refuting these requires no more than to read one verse before or after. A few others requires a bit more reading. Those who care will usual;ly read the context because they are interested.
- Those who are not interested will just keep tossing these out a few at a time to waste the time of those who fall for it.

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Typical Tj3... He quotes his interpretations of the Bible. But if another person provides his or her interpretation of the same, Tommy comes with this type of BS, about context, about wasting time, etc. etc.

All it confirms is that the text that is SUPPOSED to be (guided?) by the claimed-to-exist "creator" can not be understood by normal human beings without the explanation of a self-proclaimed specialist (priest, rabbi, viccar, "Tom Smith" alias Tj3, etc.)
A "creator" that is so limited that it can not ensure that its own words can be understood by humanity is not worth to be BELIEVED in, and brings doubt to the religious claims that it is supernatural, omni-scient, omni-potent, and/or supra-powerful.

Conclusion : the entity 'God" can be seen as "the creator" that just "created" , but any support for the additional claims as made by the various individual religions is completely lacking.

Ergo : Deism is a good choice if one BELIEVES in the existence of a deity called "God", is just as VALID as any other deity format, and is much less loaded with all the empty wild and unsupported additional claims as provided by the various mono-theistic religions, while it does not need that army of self-proclaimed specialists , translators, and interpretators that is needed to explain the mono-theistic format of "God's word" to mankind at all .

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

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Originally Posted by asking

Obviously, the Biblical God is cruel and jealous, e.g., demanding that Abraham kill his own son. Why put cruelty in quotes?

Natural cruelty (among humans and in nature) has nothing to do with this. God is the one who is supposed to be all powerful and merciful and yet obviously is not. Nobody ever said that being ripped apart by African hunting dogs was not a cruel death.

But God is supposed to be perfect and all powerful. An all powerful being has no reason to be cruel to helpless humans or, for that matter, his specially created zebras eaten daily by hyenas or dogs, or caterpillars eaten alive by birds. It's like beating a infant. Only the weak are deliberately cruel to the helpless. Any being who could stop that and did not, is cruel, without a doubt.

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Is the God of the Bible, you know, the one who loved us sinners so much as to sacrifice His only son to die for the salvation of sinners cruel?

It is humanity that is cruel - take a look around : abortions [ talk about helpless ], the Congo, Darfur, Tibet, Sadamm, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin,.

If there is no God and we are the product of chance and evolution, what should it matter that the fittest survive and reproduce?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I don’t know how to soft peddle; so if my arguments came off only as snippy, I must’ve done something wrong.

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Apology accepted?

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Moral Theology (link) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Moral Theology

My contest isn’t with you, so you don’t have to worry about winning or losing.

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I didn't say Moral Theology didn't exist; my point is it's a religious term, and a Christian one at that. So naturally, non-Christians are unable to be moral in the theological sense.

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Let’s see, I’ve seen war first hand, I’ve seen terrorism first hand, and I’ve seen a host of disasters first hand, and I may see worse in the future. But, I've learned that one of my major concers is what could be in the next life if this one isn’t done right. Since you don’t believe in religious mumbo jumbo you don’t need to worry about the next life. Just think, when your time is up, well, it’s just lights out, isn’t it? Just like a switch; lights out. No more anything whatsoever. Now that’s a terrifying thought!

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It's not terrifying at all, actually. I spend my life trying to enjoy every moment because this is the only chance I get. I try to make a difference in the lives of others so my memory will be carried on. I'm not worried about ticking off a temperamental supernatural being - I'm worried about doing the right thing because it's the right thing. There's a sign of the busses in my area - "There is no God. So be good for goodness sake". That's what I do. Nothing terrifying about it at all. I'd think you must be terrified constantly, never knowing if you did something wrong and you might burn in hell for eternity. Hell is made out to be a pretty terrifying place, after all. I never worry about it.

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You may be finished with me. But you’re a long way from finishing this fight. I hope you win.

JoeT

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Gee... thanks.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

The last time I read the bible I was 24 years old. I did read it cover to cover with an open mind. Trust me, I was old enough and wise enough to understand the words therein.

As for my parents, my father was born and raised Catholic, the only reason he became Lutheran was because the Catholic church wouldn't allow them to marry unless my mother converted to Catholicism. She refused, they sent my parents away telling them that if they weren't married in the Catholic church then they weren't really married, that they'd be living in sin and all their children would be bastards.

So they married in the Lutheran Church. My father didn't become Lutheran until years later because he had lost respect for the Catholic Church. So why send me to a Catholic school? I asked to go, all my friends were going to that school and I didn't want to be seperated from them.

My parents knew the bible, just like you. They were raised to believe in the words written in the bible. When I questioned it they couldn't give me answers because there are none. They had been told all their lives that the bible was the word of God, even though they read the words in the bible, they never thought to question it because it was firmly ingrained into them that the Bible was not to be questioned, only obeyed.



40 men wrote the bible. Men, not God. So how am I wrong in saying that it's a man written book?

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Men from all walks of life from different times fromdifferent continents.

How can they be any more wrong than your own interpretation of who God is?
Are not we all fallible, and no human has all the answers.

What do you think of God's explanation to Job?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

The last time I read the bible I was 24 years old. I did read it cover to cover with an open mind. Trust me, I was old enough and wise enough to understand the words therein.

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Good. Well then please do not take what someone tells you on internet about the Bible. Check out the context for yourself.

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As for my parents, my father was born and raised Catholic, the only reason he became Lutheran was because the Catholic church wouldn't allow them to marry unless my mother converted to Catholicism. She refused, they sent my parents away telling them that if they weren't married in the Catholic church then they weren't really married, that they'd be living in sin and all their children would be bastards.

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The Catholic church does not hold to the Bible as the standard of doctrine. They have additional sources thrown in and then insist that only they can interpret it, rather than following the Biblical approach of allowing scripture to interpret itself.

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40 men wrote the bible. Men, not God. So how am I wrong in saying that it's a man written book?

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We were there a few days ago when I told you that I had evidence to the contrary and you said that you would reject any evidence which disagreed with your perspective on the Bible being written by men.

So until I see evidence that has changed, then clearly there is no way that you are going to believe otherwise. You have chosen to close yourself off from accepting any other possibility.

Without this evidence Tom I have no choice but to believe what I believe, and to be fair, you're correct, I probably won't change my views, but I would read your evidence with an open mind, that I can promise you.

If you choose not to post this evidence, I won't lose any sleep over it. I have my beliefs and they're good enough for me and my family. If my children grow up and express an interest in studying the bible, then I'll make sure that they get the chance. If my children grow up and decide that God doesn't exist, I will support them in that choice. If they wish to study Wicca, all the more power to them. I'm not raising sheep, how could I, I'm not a sheep either.

If what you believe makes you feel whole, gives you peace within yourself, then that's good enough. I'm not here to try to make you give up your faith, I'm here to share my faith with all of you, to try to make you all understand why I believe the things I do.

I'm not less than you just because I'm a Deist, and assuming that I am because the bible isn't a part of my faith, well that's not only silly, but an insult as well.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Without this evidence Tom I have no choice but to believe what I believe, and to be fair, you're correct, I probably won't change my views, but I would read your evidence with an open mind, that I can promise you.

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Well, you said several times that you would reject any historical evidence that proved that Biblical prophecy was fulfilled. That is different than simply saying that it would or would not change your mind. However I have a comment on that point. I do not view discussions on truth to be a battle or a contest to change minds. Those who love truth always strive for truth wherever it may lead. It should not be a matter of hardening one's mind against chnaging what they believe. If one takes the view that they are prepared to follow truth wherver it leads, they never lose.

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If you choose not to post this evidence, I won't lose any sleep over it. I have my beliefs and they're good enough for me and my family.

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It depends upon your objective. If your objective is to feel good about your beliefs, and youi are concerned only about your temporal comfort in this life, you are probably right - they are good enough. If you are thinking about your eternity, then only one truth can be right and to follow a different one is not good enough.

If my children grow up and express an interest in studying the bible, then I'll make sure that they get the chance. If my children grow up and decide that God doesn't exist, I will support them in that choice. If they wish to study Wicca, all the more power to them. I'm not raising sheep, how could I, I'm not a sheep either.

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I'm not less than you just because I'm a Deist, and assuming that I am because the bible isn't a part of my faith, well that's not only silly, but an insult as well.

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You are right, it would be silly and it would be an insult, but it is a strawman insult because no one that I have seen even suggested such a thing.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Where did God demand that Abraham kill his son? Read the whole story, don't just take out the bits that you like.

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Um. Here?

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2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

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Poor Isaac! Nowadays, Abraham and God would both be busted for child abuse, even if they didn't actually carry out the dirty deed. Yeah, (1) making a father kill his own son is cruel and (2) tying a kid up and preparing to slit his throat is cruel. Yes, I'm leaving out the part where God loses his nerve and decides to (1)let Isaac live and (2) let Abraham not kill his son. But it's not because I don't "like" that part. It's because you asked, "Where did God demand that Abraham kill his son?" See above.

It's hair raising and cruel.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

BTW, you do know that death and killing entered the world only when man sinned, don't you? Why blame God for the actions of men?

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Well, according to the Bible, death and sinning entered the world when women were invented by God and then "disobeyed" God's injunction not to eat fruit (which is really interesting given that primates are fruit eaters). But I (personally, just for myself) don't happen to believe the Garden of Eden is a true account of the origin of sin. It's just a reflection of the weak tendency of many people to blame someone else for their troubles. "It's my wife's fault." "It's my husband's fault."

Even if you accept the facts in this story as literally true, they are a condemnation of God, not human beings. In this story, "God" is blaming humans for the sin and death HE inflicts on them. God is totally controlling and arranges for "men" to be tempted and then punishes them for a trivial transgression of no significance with a cruel and unusual punishment.

If I put a box of candy in my children's room and said, "don't open that box and don't eat the third candy on the right," and then my two beautiful and otherwise well-behaved children did open the box and eat that candy, and if I then I punished them by abandoning them in a bad part of town and also condemning them and all their descendants to a life of suffering, with real and exquisite pain, most people would say I was crazy and abusive.

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It depends upon your objective. If your objective is to feel good about your beliefs, and youi are concerned only about your temporal comfort in this life, you are probably right - they are good enough. If you are thinking about your eternity, then only one truth can be right and to follow a different one is not good enough.

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What makes you think that you're "truth" is the correct path? You haven't studied my beliefs, do you even know what they are? Do you know what being a Deist entails?

What you're saying is it's your way or the highway. Are the jews wrong too, or the Buddhists, are The Catholics right but the Baptists are wrong? There's more than one belief system in this world. Why are you so sure that you're right and everyone else is wrong?

The truth is that due to the fall of man in the Garden Of Eden, we all have the Serpents blood of Satan flowing through our viens and until we overcome our evil nature completely, we will never agree on anything. Satan is the father of all lies.
So, let us argue. Hit me witit.

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Originally Posted by asking

Um. Here?



Poor Isaac! Nowadays, Abraham and God would both be busted for child abuse, even if they didn't actually carry out the dirty deed. Yeah, (1) making a father kill his own son is cruel and (2) tying a kid up and preparing to slit his throat is cruel. Yes, I'm leaving out the part where God loses his nerve and decides to (1)let Isaac live and (2) let Abraham not kill his son. But it's not because I don't "like" that part. It's because you asked, "Where did God demand that Abraham kill his son?" See above.

It's hair raising and cruel.

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Abraham and Issac became a type (picture) of The Father and Jesus Christ.

God never intended for Abraham to kill Issac, so He didn't "lose His nerve".

To allow Issac to die at that time would have cut of the lineage of Christ, the promised "seed" of Eve.

God doesn't make mistakes and never has to change His plan. It is up to us to ask for understanding, and He will give it to us.