If God knows you will die tomorrow, is He powerless to prevent it? You can't have it both ways. Either God is omniscient, or omnipotent. He can't be both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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If God knows you will die tomorrow, is He powerless to prevent it? You can't have it both ways. Either God is omniscient, or omnipotent. He can't be both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I could write a book and say it where true, but that wouldn't make it so. The bible is important for us as believers, but even if we didn't have it, we would still know him. Do you think the bible was around in Moses' Day, nope, yet he still knew him. He is alive. It's like if you are familiar with someone's voice and they called you on the phone, wouldn't you know who it was even with out them saying so? It's kind of like that. When I was a little girl I just knew God existed(without being trained either) Not to mention the many times he has manifested in my life, many a miracles... How about your invisible Father... has he ever pulled you through and brought you out and shown himself to be true and alive in your life over and over again... mocking me will not change what is true or not.. so try to make yourself feel better.. tell me another prophesy about my life.. fire ants... really??
Oh, yes he can be both. One Jewish rabbi wrote a book about this. The rabbi concluded that, in order to give us free will, God had to take a step back to allow that to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I see my child eyeing the candy rack at the grocery store and, as his mother, knowing he loves M&Ms also know what will likely happen. I can reach out to stop him, but I don't. He has a choice. He decides to surrepitiously take a package of M&Ms. Could I have stopped him? Yes. Did I? No. Why didn't I? Perhaps there's a better lesson to be learned after the fact than by taking away his choice.
God is omniscient and omnipotent, and yet we have free will. He knows what will happen but He doesn't stop us. He isn't a robot at the beck and call of his omniscience and omnipotence. And perhaps there's a lesson for us to learn when He doesn't stop us?
God could prevent my dying tomorrow, but why should He? He put the forces of Nature to work in our lives and doesn't interfere with them. Earthquakes and tsunamis and monsoons and e. Coli and MRSA and heart attacks and cancer kill people. Could He save everyone? Sure He could! Does He? No.Quote:
If God knows you will die tomorrow, is He powerless to prevent it?
Ok your not getting it... He has an original plan.. however we stray from that original plan.. God will open up another avanue for us and allow us to learn from our mistakes. Is it that hard to understand that God would want to protect you and bless your life and love you. He doesn't want to restict your happiness and hurt you. It's a lot like parenting what parent wouldn't want their children to prosper and live greatly. When God says don't he means don't hurt yourself or someone else. Basically the one command Gods asks of us is to LOVE. Everything he does is to glorify himself. Have you ever read the story of Job? God allowed Job to face some really difficult times and Job remained faithful and God blessed him even more! That wasn't the original plan however, satin had to ask permission from God to test him in the first place. He thought that if maybe you took all the blessings from Jobs life he would renouce the Lord and Satin would prove Job wasn't worth bragging about. (yes God bragged about job much like we as parents do) In the end Job still glorifies his Heavenly father. This doesn't mean now that you can say every christian will have to experience the same as Job. We are all unique and this includes the plans for our lives. God will never allow you to go through anything that his mercy and grace will not allow you to endure. Like the darkest part of the night is right before the light comes...Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I agree with wondergirlQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
This is exactly what I mean. Non-Christians couldn't care less about Job, and probably have no clue about him. The above paragraph goes on and on, rambles and uses all those words and phrases that so easily turn off a non-Christian. Very few people will read what is in that paragraph. Those who do would say the same thing, so you are preaching only to the choir.Quote:
Originally Posted by leeseeandjoel
Saying "Ok your not getting it" to a non-Christian is one of the worst things a Christian can do. Talk about turnoff!
Take that Gospel message and personalize it. Make it yours. Roll it around in your heart and wrap it up inside your own situation. Apply it to your own life. Only when the Gospel is in your bones and part of how your mind works will you be able to speak it so that non-Christians will listen and be interested.
O'rly? Kind of my point. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by leeseeandjoel
Of course they did. I would have known Him too. God made frequent cameo appearances in those days. Talking behind burning bushes and all that. It supposedly was nothing unusual for God to just drop by and talk to someone back then. Serious question...Quote:
Do you think the bible was around in Moses' Day, nope, yet he still knew him.
Don't you find it the least bit curious that God hasn't made a personal appearance or uttered a single work in over 2000 years?? I wonder why that is?
I'm not sure who's point you're trying to prove. Yes, I would know them because... I've spoken with them before!Quote:
It's like if you are familiar with someone's voice and they called you on the phone, wouldn't you know who it was even with out them saying so?
This is genuinely interesting to me. Do you think if you had been brought up in Pakistan the God you 'knew' existed would have been Allah? If you had been brought up in India, might it not have been Brahma or Vishnu? By what coincidence do you attribute the sheer luck of your having been born in a geographical location where the God of Abraham is worshiped?Quote:
When I was a little girl I just knew God existed(without being trained either)
I have no doubt you have overcame hardships in your life. We just don't agree on why. I give you more credit than you do. I don't credit a god.Quote:
Not to mention the many times he has manifested in my life, many a miracles...
Well, if I claimed that he did, it would be every bit as strong as your claim that your god has pulled you though. So let's try an experiment. I'm going to say, YES! My invisible father has pulled me through many trying times in my life. Are you going to claim he didn't? What's your rationale for doubting me?Quote:
How about your invisible Father... has he ever pulled you through and brought you out and shown himself to be true and alive in your life over and over again...
"God's great plan" cannot defined it's personal... it's like defining every part of our bodies and then saying now what is that bodies purpose... there are more variables to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And for the funerals... was it Gods plan.. well there are two sure things in life, you are born and then you die. We all will face death one day. I do believe that some times it is in Gods will and sometimes people go too soon by someone else's choice.
For instance.. my baby sister was accidentally killed by a shot gun at 9 yrs old, I don't think that was in Gods will, but he allowed her to leave this world anyhow. At the same time, I didn't know it then, but it actually spared her from a lot of other hurt that I didn't foresee coming.
Then my brother was murdered in 2003 at 20 yrs old. I also didn't think that was God's will and was a choice someone else made, but he allowed it to happen.. for reasons I do not understand yet.
My Daddy died last year.. he just fell asleep and didn't wake up. However if you were to read the story of his life you would understand.. he was a beautiful man and the Lord had mercy on his soul and took him home. He struggled in his life partly because he did his will instead of asking God what his was, so our family has endured much do to bad decisions. God has not let any of it happen in vain he has taught me a lot about life and what is important and what is not and how glorious and magnificent he is and Loving. I praise God for my life and theirs.. my fathers, sisters and brothers legacy and purpose will be fulfilled through me now and what a blessing that is...
The problem lies in Man's tendency to humanize God. We think that God is this old gray haired man sitting in a chair that floats in the clouds. "how can HE do this..?" "how can HE do that...?"
Try as we might, our minds cannot fathom God... we can speculate this or that but we don't have the ability to vision it.
There are just something's that we cannot fathom. Try to imagine a 16 armed monkey with red hair and a horses tail. Easy right? You've never seen one but can easily picture what that would look like. Now imagine God. An image probably popped in your head.. maybe it's the Christian picture of Jesus or maybe it's a cartoon character or whatever it is.. I'm sure it varies much more than the monkey.
Now try to imagine "nothing"... literally NOTHING. Im sure most invisionied blackness.. or grayness... or whiteness... but not NOTHINGNESS. Unfortunately, that is just something that we cannot fathom.
Just as God is.
The Bible humanizes God all through it. But how else can it try to describe it? It Man attempted to describe God as God really is, we would all be worse off than we are now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Maybe he has? Maybe the same things have been happening this entire time? Anyone who claims that God spoke to them from behind a burning bush is deemed crazy, neurotic, etc... no one takes them seriously.
Once the Bible was finalized and re-released to the public, if anyone witnessed God or claimed to be spoken to by Him, he's just some wacko
I admit 'nothing' bothers me. I have tried to contemplate it and found it disturbing. I'm still an atheist, but I do see what you're saying here.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
I can understand your disturbance... especially coming from an atheist.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
And yet, one MUST admit that nothingness does, or at least did at one time, exist.
Check out the Gospels and the Two Greatest Commandments for God's plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by leeseeandjoel
Sometimes? Not all the time?Quote:
I do believe that some times it is in Gods will
But you don't know. Romans 11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord..Quote:
I don't think that was in Gods will
So it's better to be dead? My father almost ran over me when I was 3. Should I have been killed so I didn't end up with an autistic child?Quote:
but it actually spared her from a lot of other hurt that I didn't foresee coming
So those who loved the Lord and who died in pain and agony, chewed up by lions or in an earthquake, weren't as beautiful? A peaceful death shows God loves that person more?Quote:
if you were to read the story of his life you would understand.. he was a beautiful man and the Lord had mercy on his soul and took him home
This is off topic a bit, but I never understood this...Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
It seems to me that there would be more need for God to come down and speak to us now, then back in those days when there weren't even that many people around.
To me, the whole idea is so patently false that it should be obvious to anyone who puts even a moment's thought into it. If any parent today were to even think about putting a knife to their child's throat as Abraham did, they would rightly be carted off to jail. Saying that God told them to do it wouldn't suffice. Why then, do people believe God did such things in those days? And even if God DID do such things, why wouldn't that be considered an atrocity?
We don't accept people's assertions that God speaks to them, because we know it is delusional. It's why Andrea Yates is behind bars right now. So why do we accept it from people who lived 2000 years ago?
Wait a sec... I thought if you believed in at least the Christian god, you didn't have to accept there was ever nothingness. Didn't god ALWAYS exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
I'm going to jump off your off-topic comments and ask you to think about the story of Abraham. Whether it was true or not, whether God talked to him or not, think of the story as something like one of Aesop's fables. What truth is being taught in the story?Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Well the answer that any religious fanatic would give you is that God hasn't done this since Jesus came. Once Jesus came, it was no longer necessary. Now it all relies on Faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Which I think is a load of crap myself.
That is just what must be said in order to keep things in line... as accurate with the Bible as possible.
Herein lies the problem with the Bible.
Was it meant to be literal? Or was it just a way to get certain points across?
Is it truly the ONLY Word of God? Or are the millions of other deeply insightful books written by some of the greatest minds ever also God word put into print?
Did God ever speak the people of that time as it is depicted that they did? Or was it just as much as we hear a greater voice inside that speaks to us every day?
Unless God is that nothingness as much as he is everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
But wait, how could that be? Where would he have sat? When did he buy that golden throne that floats on clouds?
Which God are speaking of?
Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Amaterasu, An, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Cheng-huang, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina, Davlin, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Hades, Hanuman, Helios, Heng-o, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Hestia, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jupiter, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kukulcan, Lakshmi, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Magna Mater, Marduk, Mars, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna, Nanse, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, Rhea, Sabazius, Sarasvati, Shiva, Seshat, Seti, Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Tiamat, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil, or Zeus.
And more importantly, why?
workerbee
Nice God list, dude!Quote:
Originally Posted by workerbee
[QUOTE=sassyT]Well that was rude of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Ok Job was just a point of reference. I was giving non-christians the benefit of the doubt by assuming that they have educated themselves and made an educated decision on behalf of their beliefs, then decided to just not believe it. Your right I guess most of them have not read this book. My mistake..Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I didn't mean "ok your not getting it" as OK their not getting the idea of God. I meant they were not getting just the point I was trying to make. At the same time why should I sugar coat my belief? To not infringe on someone else's comfort zone? I have not heard you once do as you are saying "personalizing the gospel" So I wonder who is preaching to the choir? I'm not trying to be combative, I applaud your efforts in not wanting to "turn off" non christians. This was not my intentions, but being passionate about christ is not a fault I am willing to accept.
My story is not one people are comfortable hearing so I guess not to be a hypocrite I'll tell you. You doubt the fact I have "rolled it around and made it part of my bones". I assure you this has been my everything in life and the reason I am not dead right now. By "this" I mean Gods LOVE!
This should sum it up... it goes further back than me but that is a good place to start ". I watched my sister get shot and killed right in front of me with a 12 gage shot gun at close range, just to give you a visual. I had kind of an "out of body experience" at that point. She looked down, looked up at me, and fell to her knees. She said "Mommy I don't want to die" Then she said something I will never forget she said" I see the angels, it's OK Mommy I'm going to be with Jesus" I ran to my Grandmothers house down the street to get help. I remember praying to the Lord all that night asking him please don't take her, not her, Jesus ,I'll do anything, I'll be good forever what ever it takes Lord, just not her....well next thing I remember we got the call. Elizabeth was dead at 9 years old! I didn't understand it! When I went to bed that night I asked the Lord to give me peace tell my why this was happening to us. I needed to know. ( I always have had dreams about things that were going to happen and etc.) Well that night I didn't get the answers I was looking for, I got something better...her!! In this dream, not your regular dreams, vivid and bright and my senses where keener, ...young men will have dreams old men will have visions...it's in the bible..again point of reference ) she came to me and said she was sorry for having to leave so fast, but where she was going was great! It was with Jesus! She wanted me to be sure and take care of Daddy and it was important that I tell him how much she loved him(i didn't realize the point of this until later) Then she kissed me and left with the angels. She was so radiant and so beautiful! I woke up and just cried....
I didn't have another encounter with her until I was at her funeral. I was standing outside for a bit of fresh air and then there she was with Jesus. She said to him "my daddy is singing a song just for me... doesn't he sing pretty? Lord, why is he crying? Doesn't he know where I am, with you? "Then it was over..
At this point in my life I was still young and rebellious. I knew I loved God, but wasn't living the "christian life".
Then after Elizabeth died all "hell" broke loose. My parents where hurting and wrapped up in their own sadness and grief, and my brother's situation (who, if you didn't figure out yet, was the one playing with the shot gun that killed my sister) That Clyde, my step grandfather, saw this as his opportunity to allow me to be his "pray". I was rapped by him for many years.. I will not go into detail for my own sanity.. Yes, my Daddy finally realized something was going on just by the way i acted around Clyde. I hated him and was mean and ugly. I felt like I couldn't tell them because I didn't want them to hurt anymore. So I thought if I could just "deal" with it and eventually It would just "go away". I was just a little girl and didn't know any better. They thought it was just teenage rebellion, but eventually they realized something was going on with their baby girl.
Yes we went to court and that was an experience in it self. I was smart though, I left clues behind during the attacks just incase "one day" happened. It was a hung jury by 1 juror and I refused to go back to court. I just wanted to get on with life. My parents respected my decision. During this entire process I clung to Jesus. Knowing through this entire ordeal that there was some reason all of these things had happened.
I praise God daily for the Daddy I had. If it weren't for him I don't know what I would have done. He loved the Lord too, but struggled most of his life and blamed God. He wouldn't allow God's healing and love to take hold of him. Mostly because he didn't feel like he deserved it, he blamed himself for everything. He lived in constant limbo of this and always felt condemned. The best way to describe my Father simply is this: he loved hard, Laughed hard, cried hard and lived hard. He was a beautiful man!
My brothers' life was a sad story. He had to live with what he did and did not seek God. I remember one thing he once said. It scared the hell out of me.. he said "I made a deal with the devil in exchange for my soul, I want to live "happy" here on earth." I wouldn't recommend making any deals with the devil! He was murdered at 20 by a phyco, aids infected killer with nothing to loose. All over a tattoo my brother wasn't willing to give him.The devil is a liar a cheat and a murderer. I pray God had mercy on his soul.
The dream of my brother...
It was about a year ago my brother came to me in a dream which I thought was a little odd. Because I haven't dreamed of him since he went. I had always been worried about the fate of his soul.. and never got any real answers. In this dream he was scared and alone. He said he came just to know if I blamed him for the life he lived and that he knew now, Jesus was where he should have looked..he was also worried about one of my children. He couldn't look me in the eyes and he was so sad.. I couldn't get too close to him even as much as I wanted to hug him, touch him and hold him. It seemed he wasn't in heaven or hell, but somewhere in between.. when I looked up and the dream was over.
I know this might freak some christians out, but there are things we do not understand
My Father died a year and a half ago....
My Father pretty much died of a broken heart. The Lord took him home so as to not endure anymore of this life..I still see him...
Now if you think I didn't struggle with all of this and I went on thinking all is fine, I'm a perfect little christian, I never question God, I feel no resentment and I was always grateful.....well that's for sure wong!
I struggled, I blamed , I was mad ,angry, resentful and basically pissed off! I didn't feel I deserved any of this. It seemed, to me, God had deserted me. He wasn't the God I thought he was...all of this made me question "who is God really? " and it wasn't until then, that I got my answers....
My suicide...
I decided one night I didn't want to live anymore. I was ready for the end. I prayed I asked God if I were to decide to end my life, would he still bring me home. I thought if Dad could will himself into dying then why can't I. I felt I had nothing left. I didn't feel I was good for my children or anyone else for that matter. What could I offer them? I was scared, used and abused. (I was a christian at this time.) So that night I took a bunch of pills and downed a bottle of Captan Morgan, something that was definitely not the norm for me. When I started to fall a sleep I felt my body slip away.
I wasn't sleeping. You know that point where your body is very still but your conscious is awake? Well at that point the room was all of the sudden illuminated... I saw my Father he started to show me flashes his life and then he showed me flashes of what his life would have been if he would have just allowed God to change it... This was quick, less than about 20 seconds. All of a sudden there stood Jesus, he was glorious , beautiful, Loving and kind. All I could do was cry in his presents and fall at his feet. I felt his love and sadness for his lost people. It was the most amazing love, nothing I have ever felt before... He told me I would go to heaven if I left now, but I would not be fulfilling the plan he had for my life. Then he began to show me glimpses of my future..A life I could have,..If i chose,...and what I would miss out on,..and who I would be hurting. He than lifted my chin and i said "yes Lord I want to go back, for you lord. I want to please you Heavenly Father." I couldn't stop crying. The next thing I remember was my Father showing me what his last breath was like, as if I were him at that last moment... the angels on both sides of me were waiting to take me to heaven... I could see them... and then I took one last breath,. that was when everything ended and I was back in my room. All I could do was weep and praise God for his wondrous ways and unfailing love for his people...
We will all get to this point at some time in our lives our another. It is at that point, when we decide which way we will go. With the Lord by my side, I had to relive all of this and tear down walls, rebuild and redefine who I was, What I was created for and Heal all of my past wounds. I praise God for his mercy, grace and love and I realize now that none of these things I have been through will have been in vain. The Lord has been blessing my life richly and I will continue to seek his face and Glorify him. I hope my story was worth sharing.
No I never said just because he dies peacefully meant that God loved him more Those where your words. My sister was killed with a 12 gage and my brother was beaten with a marbled piece of wood. Does that mean God loves them any less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
... And the greates of these commandments is LOVE. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength, with all of your soul and all of your mind Love your nieghbors as yourself. There is no other commandments greater than these... Yes I know Read Matt 12:29-31Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No I never said just because he dies peacefully meant that God loved him more Those where your words. My sister was killed with a 12 gage and my brother was beaten with a marbled piece of wood. Does that mean God loves them any less.
Yes I know. He also says his thoughts are greater than ours, but when you have a personal relationship with him he just reveals some things to you .
Are you asking me what the moral of the story is? Good question... I learned about it in Catechism, but I'm not sure I remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What I always took out of it (back when I was a believer), was the extraordinary faith and obedience Abraham had for God, that he was willing to sacrifice his only son for Him. I guess I also took solace that God jumped in at the last minute to say, 'just kidding!'. Back then I was naïve enough to think this showed God's compassion. But that was before I was willing to look at the bible objectively...
I now realize that under any circumstance this is an insanely cruel prank to play on somebody who loves, trusts, and worships you (not to mention the unspeakable terror the child went through). I now also realize that zero respect should be given to Abraham for following such heinous orders. Again, we don't hold people like Andrea Yates in any high regard. She claims God told her to kill her children. Are YOU OK with that wondergirl?
I'm sure there's a moral that I'm missing and you can point it out to me.
I have one question... If there is no God.. what is our purpose in this life and why should we hope for anything? Well I guess one more question... Do you believe in an evil entity? Or the opposite of god, but not equal too?Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
No, I'm not. Andrea Yates has been diagnosed as mentally ill.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
It's not so much a moral as a bigger story with cultural implications than just the scary little story that you've described.Quote:
I'm sure there's a moral that I'm missing and you can point it out to me.
Human sacrifice was a fact of life among the cultures in the ancient Near East. The central idea in the Abraham-Isaac story is that of substitution--of an animal sacrificed in the stead of and on behalf of a human. What is especially interesting about this sacrificial situation is that Abraham readily and willingly went from human to animal sacrifice in response to "an angel of the Lord [who] called out to him." In other words, Abraham obeyed a moral directive from the only source of moral authority.
I know you directed this at lobrobster, but I'd like to comment, if you don't mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by leeseeandjoel
Your question assumes there is a bigger purpose to our (humans) being here. It assumes we are "meant to be", not that we "just are". My purpose in life is to be a good friend, wife, daughter, sister, and (eventually, maybe) mother. My purpose in life is to do what I can to make this world better for the people who will live on beyond me. Hope still exists, just not perhaps the way you think of it - I don't hope I will go to heaven and not hell; the thought never crosses my mind, actually. But I hope for a good, long, happy life, and do things to make my life good, long and happy. I do that because it makes my existence better, it makes me feel like a better person, like a contributing member of society. I don't do it to get in good with a higher being, I do it for me. For an atheist, this life is all there is, we need to spend our time wisely because when we die it's over.
As far as an evil entity, no, I don't believe in one, and you'll probably find most atheists don't. In general (by definition) atheists don't believe in any supernatural beings; no gods, no devils, no demons, no spirits, no ghosts, and so on.
The next question most people ask is where an atheist gets his/her morals from; I'll go into that if you ask, but I'll spare you if you don't care to know. :)
Give us a hint -- say, two or three words.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
I think jillianleab explained it well and I don't have too much to add except: There's one more very important point that is often overlooked... Even if belief in God DID provide hope, that doesn't mean God exists! This is a critically important piece of logic that is too often misunderstood by believers. Atheists tend to care mainly about what is true. Not what makes them feel better. If you had a terminal illness, you would probably feel better if your doctor told you it can be treated. You would no doubt feel better, but it wouldn't change the truth of the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by leeseeandjoel
Again, jillianleab said it well. I am an equal opportunity disbeliever. Contrary to what many theists think, most atheists have nothing against God. They simply don't believe in things that fly in the face of what we know about our physical world and cannot be substantiated in any way. That includes devils, ghosts, astrology, numerology, etc.Quote:
Do you believe in an evil entity? Or the opposite of god, but not equal too?
Wow, I don't mean to sound condescending, but you got this part right wondergirl. Why not just take the next logical step and concede that it was our past need to place blame for things we could not understand, that we 'invented' the concept of god? In other words, why did the volcano erupt and wipe out entire villages? We angered the Volcano God. Why did a tsunami kill tens of thousands along the coast for as far as the eye can see on a clear, sunny, day? The God of the sea was angry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It's easy to see how man created god. Not the other way around. You start making a very astute observation, but somehow get derailed. What derailed you?
I also didn't' realize you understood this. I guess you learn a lot if you keep reading people's posts. I did have you wrongly pegged. Not that you'd care, but I can take you a little more seriously now.Quote:
Whose god is the right god? God is unknowable and indefinable. God doesn't belong to any particular religion, and can't be fenced off or put into a box or plugged into a certain set of circumstances. God is too big for that. All a religion does is define God for its own purposes and help people relate to and understand God.
I don't think I've gotten derailed. When you've lived as long as I have, you may see things differently than you do right now. I know MY ideas have changed over the years. I lately have been chewing on the idea that man invented the devil as a cop-out and to avoid personal responsibility for wrongdoing--"The devil made me do it."Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I just started a new book by Rodney Stark, Discovering God. It talks about much of what this thread is about. I'll let you know how it goes.
Wait a minute, I learn more and more. You don't believe in miracles?! My point is this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Say God knows he will be ending the world next Thursday. Is there any circumstance in which He could prevent Himself from doing so? If so, He is not omniscient after all. His knowledge that the world was ending Thursday was wrong. If He was right, then He is not omnipotent, since He did not have the power to prevent it from happening.
I'm not trying to be funny or difficult. Even I think questions like 'Can God make a square circle?', are silly. But I don't think my question is silly. It seems self-evident that omniscience and omnipotence are necessarily incompatible.
And that in a nutshell is the difference. We are not even having the same conversation. You are speaking of ideas, while I am discussing only what is likely to be true or false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'm sure my ideas on things will change as time goes on. But if I live to be 80, I hope to aways be rational and able to use logic in forming my view of the world.
You are thinking like a human being. Oooops! You are a human being!Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
As I said before, God is so huge and so far beyond our knowing that we cannot begin to imagine who he is and what he can do. Your questions immediately put him into that nice little box and you wrap up the box with your limited ideas (human version) of omniscience and omnipotence. Meanwhile, you are painting yourself into a corner with what you consider logic and reason. Stop! Let God be God. Don't try to figure him out and pin him down as to how he thinks. Like the Psalmist wrote about him, "Be still, and know that I am God."
And no, omniscience and omnipotence are not incompatible. Remember my M&M story?
I pride myself on being logical and rational. I've had many years of school in a number of disciplines, so I consider myself well-educated and well-read. I even work in a library. It doesn't get any more broadening than that!Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
You say I'm speaking of "ideas," so what are you speaking of? Aren't you talking about your own ideas of truth?
Your answer also assumes we "Just are" and aren't "meant to be". Let me ask another question. The stuff you cannot see, but feel, where does that come from? As intricate as this world is your are going to tell me it was just happened by chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
My Hope is not limited to "I hope I will go to Heaven". What about the things that you have no control over, like getting cancer or a car accident. Also how do atheists explain miracles and please don't deny there are any, they happen every day. I'm sure most people have experienced one or another in their lifetime.
One more thing just to clarify "doing good" just to get in with a Higher being, I know him as God, Isn't what I believe. Once again, to sum God up in one word it would be... love. I want to Love him and I want to Love other people. God isn't up there with a tali of how many good deeds you do in his name, actually he despises it.
I just cannot accept that this is all this life is.. I know better.. having experienced it myself. Having said that you will now probably call me crazy, but it's to be expected. Since you don't believe in supernatural happenings.
Belief in God 'childish,' Jews not chosen people: Einstein letter - Yahoo! NewsQuote:
LONDON (AFP) - Albert Einstein described belief in God as "childish superstition" and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday.
I tend to agree with the honest super geniuses.
This "critically important logic" you are talking about, that for some reason you think as a believer I have over looked, does not apply to most believers. Here is why, belief in God does provide hope, however, God doesn't ever just leave you hanging.. it doesn't stop at that point. He continues to manifest and he makes himself known in your life! He says always give a reason for why you hope.. if I didn't have any reason ,yes, I would be illogical. If you give him a chance and it doesn't work out, what's the loss? Atheism will always take you back.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
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