doctrine - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online DictionaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Sure. It fits in with the Electronic Voice Phenomena question doesn't it?
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doctrine - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online DictionaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Sure. It fits in with the Electronic Voice Phenomena question doesn't it?
Sounds like an anti-Catholic website which makes a bunch of false accusations against the Church. For instance, the idea of "releasing infants from Limbo". Since Limbo is not and has never been a doctrine of the Catholic Church, there is no Limbo from which infants may be released.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
If anyone in the Vatican made that statement, they meant it metaphorically.
Sincerely,
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
You asked about "cars or computers or Pepsi or fast food or scotch tape or the internet or railroads". None of these are doctrinal.
However, asking saints and angels to intercede for us, that is biblical.Quote:
Originally Posted by fancyT
For instance, we see these words in Scripture:
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Now Father Abraham was long dead. Yet the Rich Man was asking for his intercession.
And we see in Scripture that the Saints in heaven are paying close attention to what is happening on earth and they are praying for us:
Hebrews 12 1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
2 Machabees 15 12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: 13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: 14 Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. 15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:
16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.
That is true. Scripture also says that we are to imitate Jesus. Who imitates Jesus better than those who have learned to imitate Him in this life and having been perfected have joined Him in the next?Quote:
The word of God says Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father interceeding for us, it also says that the Holy spirit interceed for us with grownings.
Hebrews 12 23 And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,
I could ask you the same question? If God Himself prays for us, why should you or I pray at all? The answer is, becaust it is God's will. And we don't cease to do God's will in heaven. That is what the prayer says, "God's will on earth as it is in heaven."Quote:
So if God Himself prays for us,
Therefore the Saints in heaven are doing God's will and we should strive to emulate them.
Because the prayer of a just man is very efficacious.Quote:
why then should we ask dead people to pray for us?
Yet we can lead them to Jesus, can't we? And so do Mary and the Saints:Quote:
Jesus said HE is the only way to God. Not Mary, not the saints.
John 2 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
Sincerely,
You mean the rich man who was also dead? In what way does this have anything to do with those alive in the flesh communicating with thos dead in the flesh?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
And we see in Scripture that the Saints in heaven are paying close attention to what is happening on earth and they are praying for us:
Hebrews 12 1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
I missed the part where it says that they are praying for us and that we are to pray for them. Could you please point that out?
Quote:
2 Machabees 15 12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: 13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: 14 Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. 15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:
16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.
As I am sure you are aware, Maccabees is only accepted as scripture by a few denominations. In 2 Maccabees 15:38, the writer does not claim divine inspiration.
Where did Jesus tell us to pray to the dead? How is praying to the dead imitating Jesus?Quote:
That is true. Scripture also says that we are to imitate Jesus. Who imitates Jesus better than those who have learned to imitate Him in this life and having been perfected have joined Him in the next?
Is a man truly just if he defies God's prohibition against communication with the dead?Quote:
Because the prayer of a just man is very efficacious.
Yawn, yawn, is anyone else getting tired of the haggle back and forth.
Both sides will not ever believe the other, so is there a point to this any longer.
Correct. Note that the dead Rich Man is very aware of life on earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Note that the dead Rich Man was INTERCEDING for his brethren.
It illustrates the communion of Saints. This is confirmed by St. Paul who explains that the dead Saints are in heaven witnessing what we do.Quote:
In what way does this have anything to do with those alive in the flesh communicating with thos dead in the flesh?
I guess you didn't read the part in Maccabees which depicts Jeremiah praying for us. And the dead Rich Man is praying for his brethren. Therefore he is praying for the living.Quote:
I missed the part where it says that they are praying for us and that we are to pray for them. Could you please point that out?
In this verse, St. Paul prays for the dead Onesiphorus:
2 Timothy 1
16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: 17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.
The Baghada Vita and the Quran also claim Divine inspiration. Do you believe they are divine?Quote:
As I am sure you are aware, Maccabees is only accepted as scripture by a few denominations. In 2 Maccabees 15:38, the writer does not claim divine inspiration.
The only two books which claims divine inspiration in the Christian Bible is the Second Epistle to Timothy and it doesn't claim it for itself but for the Old Testament.
And the Second Epistle by Peter, which also claims inspiration for St. Paul's epistles and for the entire Bible but is not clear about inspiration for its own words.
Jesus informed us that God is a God of the Living and not of the dead. It follows that we can communicate with the living.Quote:
Where did Jesus tell us to pray to the dead? How is praying to the dead imitating Jesus?
St. Paul taught us that we are all members of the Body of Christ and that all members rejoice when one is happy and are saddened when one is sad. Therefore, the members of the Body of Christ who have passed into the next life must be aware of what is happening in this life. Otherwise they couldn't rejoice for us.
The Saints in heaven are not dead. They are more alive than we.Quote:
Is a man truly just if he defies God's prohibition against communication with the dead?
John 10 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Nothing says that he was aware. He had only just died. The topic is communication with the dead and we see nothing of the sort here.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
But again topic is communication with the dead and we see nothing of the sort here.Quote:
It illustrates the communion of Saints. This is confirmed by St. Paul who explains that the dead Saints are in heaven witnessing what we do.
It would not matter in any case. This is not inspired scripture.Quote:
I guess you didn't read the part in Maccabees which depicts Jeremiah praying for us. And the dead Rich Man is praying for his brethren. Therefore he is praying for the living.
Note that he is praying for the "household" of Onesiphorus, who are very much alive because later we read:Quote:
In this verse, St. Paul prays for the dead Onesiphorus:
2 Timothy 1
16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: 17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.
2 Tim 4:19-20
19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
NKJV
Your lost me here. 2 Maccabees specifically speaks against inspiration. That has nothing to do with whether other books specifically claim inspiration. Read 2 Maccabees 15:38. Further, as pointed out, only a few denominations have ever accepted Maccabees as inspired.Quote:
The Baghada Vita and the Quran also claim Divine inspiration. Do you believe they are divine?
The only two books which claims divine inspiration in the Christian Bible is the Second Epistle to Timothy and it doesn't claim it for itself but for the Old Testament.
And the Second Epistle by Peter, which also claims inspiration for St. Paul's epistles and for the entire Bible but is not clear about inspiration for its own words.
As ;pointed out many many times, that passage is refuting the Sadducees claim that there is no resurrection of the dead.Quote:
Jesus informed us that God is a God of the Living and not of the dead. It follows that we can communicate with the living.
Mark 12:18-27
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife." 24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."
NKJV
It has absolutely no relevance to communication with those who are dead in the flesh which is specifically prohibited - why bring up the same point once again?
I notice that you gacve no reference, so we cannot look aty the context. But once again, it would be at best a moot point since it has nothing to do with communication with the dead.Quote:
St. Paul taught us that we are all members of the Body of Christ and that all members rejoice when one is happy and are saddened when one is sad. Therefore, the members of the Body of Christ who have passed into the next life must be aware of what is happening in this life. Otherwise they couldn't rejoice for us.
John 10:7-11Quote:
The Saints in heaven are not dead. They are more alive than we.
John 10 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
NKJV
This is speaking, in context, about salvation, not about speaking to those who are dead in the flesh.
How do you define "aware"? Note that Abraham, who had certainly not just died was also aware of the Rich Man's brothers. Note that the Rich Man was aware of Abraham and of Lazarus. Therefore, the Rich Man and Abraham were aware and in fact behaving very much as living souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
We see the dead communicating as though they are alive.Quote:
But again topic is communication with the dead and we see nothing of the sort here.
To you. Yet it is included in many Protestant Bibles. Why?Quote:
It would not matter in any case. This is not inspired scripture.
You have broken it in half and taken it out of context.Quote:
Note that he is praying for the "household" of Onesiphorus, who are very much alive because later we read:
2 Tim 4:19-20
19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
Let me show you how to break out the relevant part:
16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:
Here he prays for the house of Onesiphorus.
[b]17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me.[/quote]
Here he recalls that Onesiphorus found him while he was alive.
18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day:
Here he prays for Onesiphorus.
and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.
Here he recalls Onesiphorus goodness.
But they were in the original Bible which Jesus used. The few denominations which rejected the Deuterocanon did so in imitation of the Jews who rejected the Scriptures which Christians used.Quote:
Your lost me here. 2 Maccabees specifically speaks against inspiration. That has nothing to do with whether other books specifically claim inspiration. Read 2 Maccabees 15:38. Further, as pointed out, only a few denominations have ever accepted Maccabees as inspired.
Here St. Paul does not seem to be certain if he is inspired:
1 Cor 7 6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment...
1 Cor 7:40 But more blessed shall she be, if she so remain, according to my counsel; and I think that I also have the spirit of God.
So who decided that these words would be included in the inspired Canon?
I believe it does.Quote:
As ;pointed out many many times, that passage is refuting the Sadducees claim that there is no resurrection of the dead.
Mark 12:18-27
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife." 24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."
NKJV
It has absolutely no relevance to communication with those who are dead in the flesh which is specifically prohibited - why bring up the same point once again?
Unless you don't believe that the dead do not immediately go to the presence of God.
2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I was certain all were familiar with this passage.Quote:
I notice that you gacve no reference, so we cannot look aty the context. But once again, it would be at best a moot point since it has nothing to do with communication with the dead.
Here it is:
1 Corinthians 12 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. 14 For the body also is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body? 20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you. 22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary. 23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness. 24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, 25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.
26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.
Does a member of the Body of Christ fall off simply because his body dies?
This does not say that prayer to the Saints is not efficacious.Quote:
John 10:7-11
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
NKJV
This is speaking, in context, about salvation, not about speaking to those who are dead in the flesh.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Again, it does not matter. I am not arguing whether people in heaven can be aware of us or not. It is not relevant. In this passage we have no communication between those who are dead and those who are alive. That is the point. Let's not distract this from that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
If you feel that it is relevant, then make your point.
Dead to dead communication. No one said that was an issue.Quote:
We see the dead communicating as though they are alive.
I am not sure what you mean by a Protestant Bible. I have a Christian Bible, and many do have reference material. I have a study Bible which is probably 25% non-inspired reference material. I see no issue with that.Quote:
To you. Yet it is included in many Protestant Bibles. Why?
But the point here is not whether you accept it or not, but the point is that if you wish to discuss this, be aware that if you use non-canonical sources such as this, I will look to see if canonical sources validate the claim and if not, I will reject the specific reference as valid.
Okay, now show me where it says that Onesiphorus is dead.Quote:
You have broken it in half and taken it out of context.
Let me show you how to break out the relevant part:
16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:
Here he prays for the house of Onesiphorus.
[b]17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me.
Here he recalls that Onesiphorus found him while he was alive.
18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day:
Here he prays for Onesiphorus.
and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.
Here he recalls Onesiphorus goodness.
Yep, but were not accepted by any denomination that I am aware of until the Roman Catholic Church added it to the canon at the Council of Trent.Quote:
But they were in the original Bible which Jesus used. The few denominations which rejected the Deuterocanon did so in imitation of the Jews who rejected the Scriptures which Christians used.
Paul was very careful to point out where it came from his own opinion. In 2 Maccabees 15:38, he refers to the whole account, as we see in verse 37.Quote:
Here St. Paul does not seem to be certain if he is inspired:
1 Cor 7 6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment...
1 Cor 7:40 But more blessed shall she be, if she so remain, according to my counsel; and I think that I also have the spirit of God.
We can believe whatever we want, but that does not make it true. Look at the context. Find a single reference in the context to speaking with the dead and show it to me.Quote:
I believe it does.
I have no problem with that, and agree that the whole of Christ's body includes those in heaven and earth, but note nothing in the context of the passage that you quoted even touched on speaking with the dead.Quote:
Does a member of the Body of Christ fall off simply because his body dies?
That approach is a defined logic fallacy. Let me demonstrate the error - I also could say that it does not say that you do not have green hair and pink eyes, therefore you must.Quote:
This does not say that prayer to the Saints is not efficacious.
Both are equivalent because the passage is not speaking about your hair and eyes, nor is it speaking about communication with the dead.
The saints are indeed not "dead" in Heaven but have lost only their physical bodies. They continue to live in their Spiritual body as does Jesus Christ and others in that Holy Realm. Since there have been arguments back and forth about whether a person who is deceased in this world still continues living in the next, therefore capable of communication with us, a learned lawyer and Afterlife researcher has written Open Letters to Dr. Billy Graham as well as to the Pope in defense of his findings. Both necessitate reading in their entirely since too many things have been happening that shows/proves that those who would be presumed "dead" are now reappearing in this world to speak to the "living" (as JESUS did after the third day following His "death"). Another great example is Jesus' Mother Mary who has come numerous times since the children at Fatima saw her (several times) and she has even been photographed in her Spiritual body (pictures available for skeptics). Therefore, if the Mother of Jesus (Jesus=God in the Holy Trinity) can appear to us so many times (including in Cairo, Egypt) and communicate with us and we with her during her appearances, it appears a non-issue to even suggest that such things are not possible. The Word would have to reflect that with full clarity (and does reflect Jesus' resurrection, at least, and His speaking to His disciples and we are assured that by being Born Again we do not "die" either but continue life in Heaven or other realms). As to Mary reappearing, she may have not done so when the Holy Bible was being written for the very first time therefore is not spoken about. But she has done so NOW and subsequent versions of the Bible have not reflected that fact. So what does that tell us? The re-interpreters may indeed not want to give credibility to that very real fact! But then, would 'man' with his draconian personal prejudices and short-comings allow for that possibility in their interpretations? That continues to be the question facing many.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
But please read Mr. Zammit's Open Letter to Dr. Billy Graham as well as the Open Letter to the Pope for more on this matter. Perhaps, this letter has helped to make the Vatican better understand that communication is possible with the deceased and that may be why they have now eased restrictions. Remember, there was a strong prohibition against eating meat on Fridays by Catholics. Now that prohibition has been lifted. Important and stringent things that were in the Old Testament are not now in the New Testament, so things indeed do change and ways of thinking change as do the eras between 1A.D. to 2008 A.D. and since there have been so many, many people who have interpreted the Bible and re-interpreted it throughout time, it would indeed be hard for those interpreters to hold on to the original Scriptures to pass on to others to be sure they too interpreted it perfectly each time. Could we then dare ask if they, as interpreters of the Bible, held each subsequent piece of Scripture in their hands to directly translate from it? Or should we merely assume and presume that they did? God's word is indeed infallible but that of the translators could leave much to be desired due to the thoughts of that time as well as personal prejudices. Therefore, since the Bible did not write itself as did the Ten Commandments from God that was given to Moses, is there anyone who can absolutely, unequivocally prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that those human men who interpreted the Bible so many times did so without prejudice and with direct physical evidence from which Scripture was taken?
Here is the link to the Open Letter to Dr. Billy Graham.
VICTOR ZAMMIT - Lawyer's Open Letter to Billy Graham - and Christian Fundamentalists
Mr. Zammit also wrote a similar Open Letter to the Pope. An Open Letter to the Pope
Again, both letters should be read by everyone interested in this matter if discussions are to ensue as issues could be raised in direct relation to what was said.
Why? Scripture says we should do God's will on earth as it is in heaven. Since it is God's will that we intercede for each other on earth, it follows that the Saints in heaven are already interceding for us because they are doing God's will..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
But we have communication between souls in two different states of being. And we see that they are as aware as we or even more so.Quote:
In this passage we have no communication between those who are dead and those who are alive. That is the point. Let's not distract this from that point.
I thought I had.Quote:
If you feel that it is relevant, then make your point.
1. The Rich Man is addressing Abraham as "Father". He is communicating with him directly and assumes that Father Abraham has the authority to respond without asking for permission from higher authority.
2. Father Abraham does not correct him, but responds politely calling the Rich Man son and explaining why his prayer is rejected. Note that Father Abraham does not say, "Sorry son, you must pray directly to God." He accepts the prayer and rejects the request of his own authority.
3. Bot the Rich Man and Father Abraham show complete awareness of life on earth and in heaven.
Life after death communication. It is one half of the issue. We pray to those who are alive after death. Scripture shows that they are aware of events on earth, that they are listening and that they are capable of answering communication.Quote:
Dead to dead communication. No one said that was an issue.
A Bible which follows the tradition established by Martin Luther.Quote:
I am not sure what you mean by a Protestant Bible.
So you consider the Deuterocanonicals "reference material"? I wonder why since you believe they contradict the word of God?Quote:
I have a Christian Bible, and many do have reference material. I have a study Bible which is probably 25% non-inspired reference material. I see no issue with that.
This is another case of our different assumptions. The Deuterocanon is the so called "second" canon. The Catholic Church considers them inspired. We recognize 73 canonical books.Quote:
But the point here is not whether you accept it or not, but the point is that if you wish to discuss this, be aware that if you use non-canonical sources such as this, I will look to see if canonical sources validate the claim and if not, I will reject the specific reference as valid.
So, that begs the question, you consider the Deuterocanonicals "reference" materials, but you say that when I refer to them you will not consider the reference valid? That sounds like a contradiction. Please explain how that makes sense?
It is in the martyrology: :Quote:
Okay, now show me where it says that Onesiphorus is dead.
St. Onesiphorus:
Martyr with Porphyrius. Onesiphorus was mentioned in St. Paul’s Second Letter to Timothy. According to tradition, they went to Spain in the footsteps of St. Paul and then suffered martyrdom on the Hellespont, under Emperor Domitian. They were tied to wild horses and torn to pieces. Porphyrius was said to be a member of Onesiphorus’ household.
St. Onesiphorus - Catholic Online
Why would St Paul pray for mercy on his soul in the day of judgement if Onesiphorus weren't dead?
The Council of Trent confirmed the decision of several councils held on the matter from the early centuries.Quote:
Yep, but were not accepted by any denomination that I am aware of until the Roman Catholic Church added it to the canon at the Council of Trent.
360 AD Laodocia Council meets to decide which books and writings will be accepted as Holy Scripture. The Greek Septuagint is accepted for the Old Testament. (note: the Septuagint includes the Deuterocanon.)
390 AD Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible is produced and in wide circulation. It includes all 80 books including the Apochrypha (aka the Deuterocanon by Catholics).
History of the Bible
As far as I know, the information provided above is from a non-Catholic source.
I don't see a denial of "inspiration". Please provide the quotation and explain why you arrive at that conclusion.Quote:
Paul was very careful to point out where it came from his own opinion. In 2 Maccabees 15:38, he refers to the whole account, as we see in verse 37.
The reference calls the dead in Christ "living". I believe I can communicate with the living. In addition, correlation with other Scriptures shows that we can communicate with heavenly creatures, that the Saints are aware of those on earth and they are called witnesses.Quote:
We can believe whatever we want, but that does not make it true. Look at the context. Find a single reference in the context to speaking with the dead and show it to me.
But it does touch on the awareness.Quote:
I have no problem with that, and agree that the whole of Christ's body includes those in heaven and earth, but note nothing in the context of the passage that you quoted even touched on speaking with the dead.
We can easily duplicate the same situation on earth. Let us say that you are in one room and your children in another and you hear one of your children mention to his brother that he is hurt. Since you are aware of him but he is not aware of you, will you ignore his need? Of course not. You love your child.
In the same way, the Saints are our brethren and they love us and are aware of us and they will listen to us and try to help us at every turn.
It works both ways however. It does not say I have brown eyes and brown hair. And I do.Quote:
That approach is a defined logic fallacy. Let me demonstrate the error - I also could say that it does not say that you do not have green hair and pink eyes, therefore you must.
Here's the fallacy in which you've fallen. The verse does not address prayer to Saints. The verse you presented says that Jesus is the sheepgate. I believe it. But that doesn't mean that Jesus will prevent his sheep from guiding each other to the sheepgate. Or from assisting each other no matter what side of the sheep gate they are on.
Job 5 1 Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.
Deuteronomy 33
1And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Note this passage in the KJV which seems to say that God has provided us thousands of saints which sat down at our feet and everyone shall receive our words.
And of course this famous verse by Elisha:
2 Kings 6: 16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Correct. It is not addressing communication with the dead. Nor it is addressing communication with the Saints in heaven.Quote:
Both are equivalent because the passage is not speaking about your hair and eyes, nor is it speaking about communication with the dead.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Well, I read Victor Zammit's letter to Billy Graham (and me). The only thing I care to say is to quote:
Rom 1:18-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(KJV)
I know this is referring to idolatry and you will say it dosen't fit. I submit that it does because this man is exalting man's thinking as the ultimate authority. Man can worship intellect as readily as he can a carved image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
To discuss this is a distraction since it has nothing to do with communicating with the dead. You may note that I chose not to respond to many of your comments because they likewise focus on "awareness" and other such things which distract from the topic - which is the prohibition between those alive and dead in the flesh.Quote:
But we have communication between souls in two different states of being. And we see that they are as aware as we or even more so.
Both dead - this has nothing to do with communication between living and dead.Quote:
I thought I had.
1. The Rich Man is addressing Abraham as "Father". He is communicating with him
No one denied dead can communicate with dead.Quote:
Life after death communication. It is one half of the issue.
The point is that it is prohibited, and so far you appear to be avoiding that topic.Quote:
We pray to those who are alive after death. Scripture shows that they are aware of events on earth, that they are listening and that they are capable of answering communication.
Irrelevant. I do not follow His tradition.Quote:
A Bible which follows the tradition established by Martin Luther.
Some do, some is interesting and valuable historical reference material. But it is not scriptural. So if you choose to use non-scriptural material such as this, be aware that it will be rejected as authoritative. I notice that you keep bringing up the apochrypha - if you wish to discuss the make-up of the canon, I suggest that you start a new thread, because I will ignore any future arguments of that type in this thread. As in our other discussion, you do appear to have a tendency to try to expand the scope of discussions and thus distract from the key topic.Quote:
So you consider the Deuterocanonicals "reference material"? I wonder why since you believe they contradict the word of God?
These are once again simply unvalidated claims of your denomination.Quote:
It is in the martyrology: :
St. Onesiphorus:
Martyr with Porphyrius. Onesiphorus was mentioned in St. Paul's Second Letter to Timothy. According to tradition, they went to Spain in the footsteps of St. Paul and then suffered martyrdom on the Hellespont, under Emperor Domitian. They were tied to wild horses and torn to pieces. Porphyrius was said to be a member of Onesiphorus' household.
St. Onesiphorus - Catholic Online
I fail to see why you think praying for a future event is a problem.Quote:
Why would St Paul pray for mercy on his soul in the day of judgement if Onesiphorus weren't dead?
You are ignoring the context. No one argues that those who are dead are not alive - whether they are in Christ or not. But that is not the topic of this passage, (which is about the resurrection of the dead), nor does it address the prohibition of communicating between those who are dead in the flesh with those who are alive in the flesh.Quote:
The reference calls the dead in Christ "living".
This has nothing to do with communication with the dead.Quote:
Job 5 1 Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.
Thousands of saints were at their feet - notice how we today receive their words. Again nothing to do with communication with the dead.Quote:
Deuteronomy 33
1And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Note this passage in the KJV which seems to say that God has provided us thousands of saints which sat down at our feet and everyone shall receive our words.
Are you saying that you consider angels to be dead people? That is a belief of Mormonism.Quote:
And of course this famous verse by Elisha:
2 Kings 6: 16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Essentially then, you are setting the parameters for the discussion. I believe that awareness is a very cogent subject in this matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Obviously, if I believe that someone is aware of my presence and is listening to me, I will speak to that person even if that person can't speak to me. And there is no prohibition my speaking to the Saints. The only prohibition is my speaking to the dead through witchcraft and other satanic mediums.
I choose to look at it from the Spiritual aspect. Both living:Quote:
Both dead - this has nothing to do with communication between living and dead.
Romans 8 6 For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.
Ok.Quote:
No one denied dead can communicate with dead.
By whom and when? Have you posted a verse which prohibits prayer to the Saints?Quote:
The point is that it is prohibited, and so far you appear to be avoiding that topic.
Then why do you consider the Deuterocanonicals uninspired? Do you follow the Hebrew tradition?Quote:
Irrelevant. I do not follow His tradition.
Then why is it included in Scripture?Quote:
Some do, some is interesting and valuable historical reference material. But it is not scriptural.
So you use unauthoritative documents as references?Quote:
So if you choose to use non-scriptural material such as this, be aware that it will be rejected as authoritative.
We prefer the term "deuterocanon". And I use it because we consider them inspired and they confirm many of our doctrines.Quote:
I notice that you keep bringing up the apochrypha
You mean you will ignore my explanations. As we have acknowledged before, we use separate criteria and have different assumptions for our beliefs. The most significant of these centers on the belief that the Bible is the only standard of faith.Quote:
- if you wish to discuss the make-up of the canon, I suggest that you start a new thread, because I will ignore any future arguments of that type in this thread.
Here we are having a dispute as to what constitutes the Bible.
I don't see how explaining the support for our doctrine by using a reference from a book which you admit you keep as a reference is expanding the scope of the discussion. It seems you who is focusing on the issue of the inspiration of the Deuterocanon.Quote:
As in our other discussion, you do appear to have a tendency to try to expand the scope of discussions and thus distract from the key topic.
Again, I am not restricted to Scripture alone. Are you saying that you don't believe in the martyrs. Or that you don't believe in this one particular martyr?Quote:
These are once again simply unvalidated claims of your denomination.
Are you saying that St. Paul is anticipating Onesiphorus death and is praying for God's mercy on his soul after he dies in the future? Isn't that the same as praying for his soul after he has passed?Quote:
I fail to see why you think praying for a future event is a problem.
You've brought up that prohibition twice. Please provide the Scripture.Quote:
You are ignoring the context. No one argues that those who are dead are not alive - whether they are in Christ or not. But that is not the topic of this passage, (which is about the resurrection of the dead), nor does it address the prohibition of communicating between those who are dead in the flesh with those who are alive in the flesh.
As I said, I consider them alive in Christ.Quote:
This has nothing to do with communication with the dead.
I think it says they receive our words. This is confirmed in Revelations:Quote:
Thousands of saints were at their feet - notice how we today receive their words. Again nothing to do with communication with the dead.
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
No. We consider angels to be Saints. Have you ever heard of St. Michael, St. Rafael and St. Gabriel? The archangels of the Lord?Quote:
Are you saying that you consider angels to be dead people? That is a belief of Mormonism.
We pray to them as well.
Sincerely,
De Maria
In my opinion, what I sense him strongly questioning is man's interpretation of the Holy Bible, not God's Word which is infallible. What is being brought out is the ultimate price people had to pay for the misinterpretation of Scripture, such as the Inquisition, wars and other destruction which are against God. Knowing that God is Love and about Love, this cannot be held to a double standard. He also questions why the Church and teachings have suppressed information about the Afterlife when so many have experienced it and there is so much more information coming from that realm through communication which leaders do not wish to reveal, therefore, causing harm later on when a person enters the Afterlife (feeling some may go to "Hell" or most will be kept in "purgatory" as Catholic teachings say). He is ultimately questioning man, not God, but trying to set the record straight about Scripture and man's mis-interpretation of it to justify destructive acts which ultimately hurt others which is very much against God. Many feel the same way since ultimately there is no proof that those who re-interpreted Scripture throughout the ages did so with original Scriptures in hand and without prejudice. The Bible did not write itself nor simply appeared already written. Most unfortunately, man with his prejudices and short-comings interpreted it and re-interpreted it many times until many see that there is a strong possibility of man adding his own feelings and message into it. That, cannot be God's Ultimate Word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
The topic is communication between those dead in the flesh and alive in the flesh. Who is aware of what matters not at all. For example, if a man walks along a street and a prostitue becomes aware of him, the man's wife would not care at all. If the man were to call to the prostitute, that would make all the difference in the world. Likewise, who is aware of who does not matter. No sin has been committed until an attempt is made to communicate with the dead, in violation of God's command.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
It does not matter how you or I choose to look at it. What matters is what God says in His word.Quote:
I choose to look at it from the Spiritual aspect. Both living:
Deut 18:10-12Quote:
By whom and when? Have you posted a verse which prohibits prayer to the Saints?
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
NKJV
Note: This refers to communication with ANYONE who is dead in the flesh. No exceptions given.
No. The man is alive.Quote:
Are you saying that St. Paul is anticipating Onesiphorus death and is praying for God's mercy on his soul after he dies in the future? Isn't that the same as praying for his soul after he has passed?
Who are the prayers given to? The Lamb - Jesus who is God - no one else.Quote:
I think it says they receive our words. This is confirmed in Revelations:
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
This is irrelevant. The angels are not people who are dead in the flesh, even if you consider them saints contrary to the scriptural usage of the term.Quote:
No. We consider angels to be Saints. Have you ever heard of St. Michael, St. Rafael and St. Gabriel? The archangels of the Lord?
Worship belongs only to God.Quote:
We pray to them as well.
Rev 22:8-10
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
NKJV
"Awareness" is essential to communication. It would be ridiculous for anyone to try to communicate with someone who wasn't aware of anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This is not relevant to the issue. In this case, one party is not aware of the other. The man is not aware of the prostitute. Scripture is clear that the Saints are aware of us, and we are aware of the Saints.Quote:
For example, if a man walks along a street and a prostitue becomes aware of him, the man's wife would not care at all. If the man were to call to the prostitute, that would make all the difference in the world.
We know it is God's will that we pray for each other on earth.Quote:
Likewise, who is aware of who does not matter. No sin has been committed until an attempt is made to communicate with the dead, in violation of God's command.
It does not matter how you or I choose to look at it. What matters is what God says in His word.
Deut 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
1 Thessalonians 5 25 Brethren, pray for us.
Therefore, it must be God's will that those in heaven also pray for those on earth.
Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
And Jesus says that God is not a God of the dead but of the living. And Father Abraham is certainly portrayed in Scripture as living in Heaven.
Through soothsayers and witchery.Quote:
Note: This refers to communication with ANYONE who is dead in the flesh. No exceptions given.
But he isn't praying for the man while he's alive but on the day of Judgement.Quote:
No. The man is alive.
And that is precisely what we ask of the Saints. For their intercession before God.Quote:
Who are the prayers given to? The Lamb - Jesus who is God - no one else.
The word "Saint" means "holy".Quote:
This is irrelevant. The angels are not people who are dead in the flesh, even if you consider them saints contrary to the scriptural usage of the term.
Sanctus is the Latin word for holy or saint, and is the name of an important hymn of Christian liturgy.
Sanctus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
SAINT , in Christianity O.Fr., from Latin sanctus =holy, in Christianity, a person who is recognized as worthy of veneration.
Sanctus: Free Encyclopedia Articles at Questia.com Online Library
Angels are holy are they not?
Mark 8 38 For he that shall be ashamed of me, and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation: the Son of man also will be ashamed of him, when he shall come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Correct. We don't worship the Saints. We honor those whom God has honored:Quote:
Worship belongs only to God.
Rev 22:8-10
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
NKJV
Genesis 12:3 I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee, and IN THEE shall all the kindred of the earth be blessed:
Sincerely,
But awareness is not communication. You keep ignoring that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
We are not dead in the flesh. You keep ignoring that point also.Quote:
We know it is God's will that we pray for each other on earth.
1 Thessalonians 5 25 Brethren, pray for us.
When are you going to read the context of that verse? I keep pointing it out to you. It has zilch todo with communication with those who are dead in the flesh.Quote:
And Jesus says that God is not a God of the dead but of the living. And Father Abraham is certainly portrayed in Scripture as living in Heaven.
Anyone - no exceptions are given.Quote:
Through soothsayers and witchery.
Sign - he is praying for hiom now while he is alive.Quote:
But he isn't praying for the man while he's alive but on the day of Judgement.
Communication with the dead is forbidden.Quote:
And that is precisely what we ask of the Saints. For their intercession before God.
You did not address my point. This is irrelevant. The angels are not people who are dead in the flesh, even if you consider them saints contrary to the scriptural usage of the term.
And prayer is a form of worship.Quote:
Correct. We don't worship the Saints.
But awareness is essential to communication. You seem to be ignoring that part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The Saints are alive in Christ. You keep ignoring that as well.Quote:
We are not dead in the flesh. You keep ignoring that point also.
But it has everything to do with proving that the Saints are alive in heaven. And since the Scriptures also call them witnesses and that means they are aware of our presence and situation. As is also proven by the teaching on Lazarus and the Rich Man where Abraham shows remarkable awareness of the Rich Man's brothers.Quote:
When are you going to read the context of that verse? I keep pointing it out to you. It has zilch todo with communication with those who are dead in the flesh.
But the context is "witchcraft". There is a big difference between a medium who conjures up the dead by some unknown force and praying to the Saints in the body of Chrst.Quote:
Anyone - no exceptions are given.
I don't agree. It is obvious from the context that St. Paul is concerned for the family in their hour of distress. It is obvious from the context that St. Paul is praying for his soul. And we know from Tradition that St. Onesiphorus was martyred.Quote:
Sign - he is praying for hiom now while he is alive.
Conjuring up the dead through black arts is forbidden. Communication with the Saints in Heaven is permitted.Quote:
Communication with the dead is forbidden.
It is perfectly relevant. And the Scriptures do call the Angels "Holy" which is the meaning of the word "Saint" And Christ says that those in heaven are like the angels:Quote:
You did not address my point. This is irrelevant. The angels are not people who are dead in the flesh, even if you consider them saints contrary to the scriptural usage of the term.
Matthew 22 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Not always. Prayer is also a form of communication.Quote:
And prayer is a form of worship.
Our Church is an ancient Church. Established by Christ Himself. We still use the archaic meaning of words. And "pray" used to mean "ask". We still see it in documents written in Olde English:
Luke 14 18 And they began all at once to make excuse. The first said to him: I have bought a farm, and I must needs go out and see it: I pray thee, hold me excused.
We still use that meaning in the Catholic Church when we speak to the Angels and Saints.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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