Ask Me Help Desk - The Golden Rule

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Cred also thinks that you and SassyT are one and the same. I have to admit that I did as well in the beginning. I don't think you are SassyT, your writing styles are too different, you also aren't condescending like she was.

I don't think Cred is convinced that you aren't SassyT.

If we were really following the Golden rule, wouldn't we be nicer to eachother on this site? I doubt anyone wants to be treated badly, or do they?

Alty,

I know... he is convinced I am someone I don't even know. UGH. I agree, no one likes to be treated badly. I don't think that I have treated anyone badly, I hope I haven't anyway.:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillianleab

If it were, in fact, held to be a standard, you wouldn't fall short, would you? Praying is a standard, going to church, having faith, believing in god, spreading your faith - those are all standards. Do you fall short on those too? Standard implies consistency, if you deviate (or if other Christians deviate from the standard), it's not a standard. It's a suggestion. Unless, of course, you want to argue it's a standard with a mathematical standard deviation... but that starts getting into some math and numbers I just don't care to examine!

Jill,

I fall short of God's standard sometimes. It happens. When the woman was caught in adultry and Jesus stooped and wrote things in the dirt that left her accusers walking away one by one... he told this woman that he didn't condemn her but then he said this... GO and sin NO MORE. That is HIS standard. He can't say... go and try not to sin... or go and do your best. NO. His STANDARD is perfection. The thing with Christianity is this.. when I do fall short of HIS standard, I simply asked for forgiveness.

As far as turning the other cheek, I already did. I just want Cred to see that I am NOT sassyT. I have no other way of doing it but being who I am. AND I AM actually TEASING him about the Golden Rule. You have completely misjudged me and I think that if I were NOT a Christian.. you wouln't have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillianleab

Standard implies consistency, if you deviate (or if other Christians deviate from the standard), it's not a standard. It's a suggestion. Unless, of course, you want to argue it's a standard with a mathematical standard deviation... but that starts getting into some math and numbers I just don't care to examine!

My job is dealing with standards every day, and your understanding of standards is not correct. Standards are the objective which we strive to meet, but often fail to meet. The percentage of the set which actually achieves the standard does not define whether it is, or is not a standard.

For example, there is a standard of time, a standard "second", but much less than one percentage of one percent of all clocks on the face of the earth actually measure the standard "second". But it no less the standard. When we want to accurately and precisely know what time it is, we calibrate to the standard.

As for the standards Christians aim for - the truth is that scripture itself says that NO ONE - that is right NO ONE has ever met the standard except for God Himself when He came to earth as a man (Romans 3:23).

Does that make it less of a standard?No, in fact it shows us how far we fall short of the standard, and how much we need to align ourselves to the standard (i.e. receive Jesus as our Savior (Gal 3).

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Jill,

I fall short of God's standard sometimes. It happens. When the woman was caught in adultry and Jesus stooped and wrote things in the dirt that left her accusers walking away one by one.....he told this woman that he didn't condemn her but then he said this...GO and sin NO MORE. That is HIS standard. He can't say...go and try not to sin...or go and do your best. NO. His STANDARD is perfection. The thing with Christianity is this..when I do fall short of HIS standard, i simply asked for forgiveness.

As far as turning the other cheek, I already did. I just want Cred to see that I am NOT sassyT. I have no other way of doing it but being who I am. AND I AM actually TEASING him about the Golden Rule. You have completely misjudged me and I think that if I were NOT a Christian..you wouln't have.

No, I haven't misjudged you. I haven't judged you at all, and it has nothing to do with you being a Christian. In my opinion, you haven't turned the other cheek because you keep bringing it up. You might say you are teasing, but when people won't let something go, it's usually because deep down, somewhere, it still bugs them. What I'm trying to do is indirectly tell you that you can be the bigger person here - by letting it go. You have misjudged my remarks - perhaps because I'm an atheist?

And about standards - you won't see my point unless you go by the definition of "standard". I'm not talking about "god's standard", I'm saying, how can something be the standard if one fails at it so frequently? The golden rule might be your god's standard, but it not a standard of Christianity.

Jill,

Again thanks for your opinion concerning turning the other cheek. I am driving him batty but it isn't because deep down inside I am bugged by not getting an "i'm sorry". I know I'm not going to get that. I am really bugged that he thinks I am SassyT. THAT does bug me. I just don't know how to convince him otherwise. So by showing him I have a sense of humor and that I am different than SassyT... well it is the only way I know. It isn't working.. I understand.

All I know for sure about STANDARDS is that GOD has them. We as human beings fail. He demands perfections and since we cannot possibly give him that.. HE did it for us. Through Jesus.

Concerning your comment about the Golden rule not being a standard in Christianity. I am the FIRST one to say that it isn't nearly as easy as it seems. Without putting my pride and self aside.. it is pretty hard to follow. I think that goes for all human beings.. including those of different faiths AND antheists.

ClassyT, you've never judged me because of my beliefs, so I know that you aren't SassyT, it's just unfortunate that your names are so similar and that you both frequent the religious boards.

Guys, if she really was SassyT would she come back and choose an almost identical username? No. Besides, the mods would have booted her off, they do check the IP address of people joining, if it's the same as a former member, or a member that was banned, they are quickly banned as well.

All cleared up now? I hope so. ;)

I think that we can all agree that the Golden rule is very hard to follow, no matter where it originated from or who is trying to follow it.

Let's face it, in most of our discussion on this forum none of us is using the Golden rule as our standard. I know I fall short, I think we can agree that we all do. Or maybe I'm full of it. :)

This argument could go on forever, I don't think we'll ever reach a consensus.

Let's try to remember and use the Golden rule while we're talking to each other. Just a suggestion. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So all those other religions that have a similar moral have all been inspired by your god?

Some "Ethic of Reciprocity" passages from the religious texts of various religions and secular beliefs:

Bahá'í Faith:

"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "
Buddhism:

"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.
"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).

Confucianism:

"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4

Ancient Egyptian:

"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. 3

Hinduism:

This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517

Humanism:

"(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 4
"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3

Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5
Jainism:

"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.
"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

Judaism:

"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6

Native American Spirituality:

"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.

Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."
Shinto:

"The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
"Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga

Sikhism:

Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.
Taoism:

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.
"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49

Unitarian:

"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"
"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "
"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;"
"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. 7,8
Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede
Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."
Zoroastrianism:

"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29

Some philosophers' statements are:

Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."
Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

Thank you sooo much for going to all the trouble of putting that together! I'm going to print that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frangipanis

Thank you sooo much for going to all the trouble of putting that together! I'm going to print that out.

Actually it was part of a post I made way back on the first page (post #9). I guess it was ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Actually it was part of a post I made way back on the first page (post #9). I guess it was ignored.

Thanks for pointing that out as well. I'll go back there later to read through some of the material... looks good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

ClassyT, you've never judged me because of my beliefs, so I know that you aren't SassyT, it's just unfortunate that your names are so similar and that you both frequent the religious boards.

Guys, if she really was SassyT would she come back and choose an almost identical username? No. Besides, the mods would have booted her off, they do check the IP address of people joining, if it's the same as a former member, or a member that was banned, they are quickly banned as well.

All cleared up now? I hope so. ;)

I think that we can all agree that the Golden rule is very hard to follow, no matter where it originated from or who is trying to follow it.

Let's face it, in most of our discussion on this forum none of us is using the Golden rule as our standard. I know I fall short, I think we can agree that we all do. Or maybe I'm full of it. :)

This arguement could go on forever, I don't think we'll ever reach a consensus.

Let's try to remember and use the Golden rule while we're talking to eachother. Just a suggestion. :)

Alty,

Thanks for trying... ;) guess I will give it up.

This topic was from post one about the Golden Rule. Not about the differences or similarities between SassyT and ClassyT. That subject just hyjacked the Golden Rule topic.

So I like to get back to the real topic again : I started with the statement that the Golden Rule was wellknown long before the first letter was ever started on the first Bible chapter.
The reality is that the Golden Rule does not come from the Bible. The Bible just accepted it as a valid and sound way of life guideline.
The Golden Rule is NOT some form of property of Christianity.
Atheists have - just as all other people - used the Golden Rule to live a proper , prosperous, and safe life.
Atheists did not abuse the Golden Rule for their own views. Many christians however abused - and still abuse - their religious views to support their own religious delusions.

Believe whatever you prefer, but at least accept that others may have different views !
Why can't so many "christians" show more respect for other world views, and drop all their apparent feelings of hatred and revenge?

The Golden Rule is already many tens of thousands of years old - if not older. Having friends instead of enemies increases your chance to survive and multiply. If you do good to others, the chance that others do good to you increases.
Many animals show already the basic understanding and/or application of the Golden Rule.

It is such a basic logic that the claim that the Golden Rule is of Christian origin is totally ridiculous and based on a total and absurd bias, and on total religious blindness!

:)

.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

The Golden Rule is already many tens of thousands of years old - if not older. Having friends instead of enemies increases your chance to survive and multiply. If you do good to others, the chance that others do good to you increases.
Many animals show already the basic understanding and/or application of the Golden Rule.

Cred,

Please document the proof for your theory as you have been asked to do previously in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

... Please document the proof for your theory as you have been asked to do previously in this thread.

You seem unable to sing any other song, Tommy !
In many groups of animals (and not only in Apes) you can already see that same "Golden Rule" attitude : "I am your friend, you are my friend".
Proof enough for me that we "homo sapiens" are not the inventor of the "Golden Rule".
And that certainly includes Christianity - by more than many tens of millions of years!!

:D :rolleyes: :p :) :rolleyes: :D

.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

You seem unable to sing any other song, Tommy !

Look whose talking - with your constant demands for OSE already given. And yet when the same is asked of you, you never even try.

I guess that we all know why. We all know that there is no evidence for your theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

You seem unable to sing any other song, Tommy !
In many groups of animals (and not only in Apes) you can already see that same "Golden Rule" attitude : "I am your friend, you are my friend".
Proof enough for me that we "homo sapiens" are not the inventor of the "Golden Rule".
And that certainly includes Christianity - by more than many tens of millions of years !!!

.

.

Cred - do you have a memory problems - you keep repeating the same statements and the same questions.

See post #102:

Wolf Country, the pack, body postures and social structure

Like wolves? Does the alpha really have to really treat the lowest members the way he does? How would he [ the alpha ] feel if the lowest member treated him that way? Oh, that's right - he is dominant.

How about lions -
LION

Nope - no golden rule - dominance survives

How about bees - why does the queen get waited on - nope no golden rule there either

How about black widows - sexism and canibalism, but no golden rule there

How about gorillas?

ADW: Gorilla gorilla: Information

No golden rule there - dominance against

How about chimps?

The ABC's of Chimpanzee Behavior

No golden rule there - again dominance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cred the OSE is against your statement. ;)

g&p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

The Golden Rule is already many tens of thousands of years old - if not older. Having friends instead of enemies increases your chance to survive and multiply. If you do good to others, the chance that others do good to you increases.
.

Christianity is more than the golden rule.
Matthew 5:44

God loved us before we loved him - 1 John.

Where would we be if God stuck to a golden rule? I'll wait till these mortals love me before I love them. NO... John 3:16

I don't care who came up with the golden rule or who has sole copyright or patent to it ---What God has done for us and expects of us, with God's help, is so much beyond the golden rule.

g&p

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthebox

Christianity is more than the golden rule.

That is totally irrelevant here. This topic is about the Golden Rule. Not about Christianity being less, equal, or more than the golden Rule.

All I stated is that the Golden Rule did not originate with Christianity, but is much older, even from a time before homo sapiens developed.
But even when we focus on humanity only, the Golden Rule was already part of almost every religion prior to Christianity. Logical, as it described a good reason for survival and reproduction.

:rolleyes:

OK, now you guys have done it. You really made GOD mad this time. I think he just directed a huge flaming thang-a-ma-jig at us.
And I just fixed the dam roof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthebox

Christianity is more than the golden rule.
Matthew 5:44

God loved us before we loved him - 1 John.

Where would we be if God stuck to a golden rule? I'll wait till these mortals love me before I love them. NO..... John 3:16

I don't care who came up with the golden rule or who has sole copyright or patent to it ---What God has done for us and expects of us, with God's help, is so much beyond the golden rule.

Absolutely.

I think that Cred is having problems seeing through his hatred of Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Absolutely.

I think that Cred is having problems seeing through his hatred of Christianity.

If what he says sounds liked hatred of christianity then you must have a hatred of all that is not christian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

If what he says sounds liked hatred of christianity then you must have a hatred of all that is not christian.

And you seem to have a hatred of me, because every time that I post in a thread where you are, you make a negative personal comment about me.

Didn't you just make a negative personal comment about Cred? Do you have certain rights that others don't? The hypocrisy is outstanding.

Cred never said he hated christianity, he just is not a fan of any religion, just as you are not a fan of those without a religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Didn't you just make a negative personal comment about Cred? Do you have certain rights that others don't? The hypocrisy is outstanding.

I made a negative comment about his consistent behaviour in virtually every post that he has ever put on this board and every other other one that I have been on with him.

Quote:

Cred never said he hated christianity,

He does not have to.

Quote:

he just is not a fan of any religion, just as you are not a fan of those without a religion.

I am not a fan of religion. You appear to be making assumptions.

Quote:

I made a negative comment about his consistent behaviour in virtually every post that he has ever put on this board and every other other one that I have been on with him.

I was going to stay out of this, but I couldn't let this quote go without commenting.

Tom, you do exactly what you just accused Cred of doing. I've never had anything but negative comments from you because I'm not Christian. You may not see it, it's often hard to see our own shortcomings, but you do seem to dislike everyone that isn't Christian.

I do understand that it's your mission as a Christian to "spread the word" but you're going about it all wrong. You are often confrontational, arrogant and downright rude to people that don't have the same faith as you. No one likes to be talked down to, and that's exactly what you are doing, so it's no wonder that most people turn a deaf ear to you or start an argument with you.

The confrontations you have aren't because of your religion, it's because of your inability to accept anyone else right to their faith or beliefs. You have placed yourself on a pedestal, and have told everyone on this site that only your way is the true way. Of course that's going to create confrontations, how could it not?

I hope that you read this the way it is intended, as advice, not another confrontation.

Maybe now would be a good time to put the Golden rule into practice, no matter where it originated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, you do exactly what you just accused Cred of doing. I've never had anything but negative comments from you because I'm not Christian.

Not true. Not even remotely close. I do not differentiate between opeople based upon what they believe. I different between whether doctrines are true or not, but you accused me before because you took negative comments about doctrinal beliefs to be the same as negative comments about you.

I see a number of people who interpret things that way, but I am afraid that if people cannot accept disagreement, that is not my issue, and as I said before, if you cannot accept disagreement, perhaps internet discussion boards are not the place for you.

You have a right to your opinion, but I disagree. The only one I really butt heads with is you Tom, what does that tell you?

If everyone disagrees with you, if everyone is confrontational with you, then sooner or later you have to look at yourself and realize that maybe you're the problem, not everyone else.

Tom, is there anyone on this site that you've managed not to alienate? Can you discuss religion with anyone who isn't a Christian? If not, then you have to ask yourself why that is.

I'm not trying to put you down, not at all, I'm merely trying to point out why you have such a problem with the majority of the people on this site.

Tom, if you really are here to discuss things then you have to realize that your way isn't working. All you seem to do is push people away, until you realize that, fix it and start talking to people with respect, well, you won't get any in return and I'm afraid you'll just keep going in circles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

If what he says sounds liked hatred of christianity then you must have a hatred of all that is not christian.

Study The Talmud!

Quote:

Originally Posted by magprob

Study The Talmud!

Nah, I don't need a new book of fiction in my life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by magprob

Study The Talmud!

Which page Mag, that's a long book I'm not willing to read cover to cover. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

You have a right to your opinion, but I disagree. The only one I really butt heads with is you Tom, what does that tell you?

Well, I have seen you butt heads with others, but that does not matter. You told me that we as Christians must accept other religions as equal and when we would not, you went after us. You said that you were unwilling to consider any evidence which disagreed with what you wanted to believe. You said that if we disagreed with you, that we were attacking you as a person.

That is not my issue. You are certainly welcome to believe as you wish, and you are certainly welcome to challenge my beliefs as strongly as you wish. But you have no right to tell me that I cannot disagree with you or challenge your beliefs.

Nor do you have the right to go after me or anyone else as a person.

Now, instead of trying to, as you put it "butt heads" with me, why don't you just discuss respectfully?