Dear Fred. I do not need myths , wild claims, and lot's of religious hot air to guide my life...Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Peace and kindness too,
John
:)
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Dear Fred. I do not need myths , wild claims, and lot's of religious hot air to guide my life...Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Peace and kindness too,
John
:)
.
Credendovidis,
So you believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
No Fred. I do NOT believe in a religious manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I see no reason nor OSE for the existence of any super-natural deity and/or power.
As I stated many times before : I can guide my life within the limits of moral and ethical thinking with a social "tang" for the relation with and my concern for my fellow co-Homo Sapiens Sapiens without any need for myth and religious beliefs.
I am sure that most people could do the same had they not been brainwashed as child with religious ideas, and as adult had really tried to live on their own strength.
Peace and kindness to you too,
John
:)
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Fred, although your beliefs bring you peace that doesn't mean that someone without those same beliefs hasn't found peace within themselves.
You do not need God in order to be a good person, to live by an ethical code.
It never ceases to amaze me that Christians seem to think that they're the only "good" people on earth. God doesn't make you good, you make you good.
That's true, we have to work to make us good. But we are only able to do that with the help and conviction of the holy spirit. It's repentance, and is required, regardless of how good we are to our neighbor. If we should do good works from ourselves, they are counted as nothing to god. But out of faith to god, and at the direction of the holy spirit, we're not doing it of ourselves, but letting god work his will through us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
What "good" or "ethical code" are you referring to?
What if Hitler's " ethical code" was to survive and pass on genetic information by what ever means necessary because certain races are superior . Was Hitler "good?" :confused:
What makes one ethical code better than another's ?
What make one person more good than another if there is no standard?
How is that standard derived?
I don't know what " Christians " you associate with but Roman 3:23 ;)
I cannot be "good " enough but by the GRACE of Jesus Christ's death and Resurrection :D
inthebox
Good questions.
I believe that there are a lot of good peop;e in this world who are not Christians and a lot that are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Are you starting up that old hat "Hitler was an Atheist" again? Than I'll respond with the OSE supported position that Hitler was a Roman Catholic Christian with lot's of other spiritual ideas...Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Basically all systems use the same basis : "the Golden Rule", a standard that is millennia older than the Jewish and Christian cultures.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
At least you could try. It would make discussions here a lot more friendlier...Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
:rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:
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Cred,
There are a lot of friedley folks here.
Try being friendly with them rather than accusing them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
But some are certainly not friendly Fred!!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Note that I react on what THEY post, Fred.
Don't blame the messenger. Blame the one who posted it first him/her self!!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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This...
Thread...
Will...
Never...
Die!!
Threads always die, just like hitler, who was not following the golden rule.
From the bible's characterization of god's work, we can see that hitler did not follow god, as god and jesus spoke against murder. And the very people god set out to be a holy nation, hitler attempted to exterminate, as if he were god. And by the way, they say hitler committed suicide.
Cred,
You often use a generality that accuses all Christians of being un-christian-like.
Please stop doing that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
[QUOTE]DrJ. Let me make myself clearer. I agree with all of the above but let me explain where I am coming from. I KNOW God as much as I know Goerge Bush is president, but do I KNOW that God is this one true God who created the heavens and earth? The Answere is NO, I do NOT know that, however I believe he is, I have FAITH the God I KNOW is the One true God the creator of the Heavens and the earth. I have Faith in Him whom I have come to KNOW exists. So yes you are right I do have Faith because I don't know everything, but I do know there is a God. I don't know why you think it is impossible to know God exists. It is not at all. Many people now and in the past have known God exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Peter knew God existed but needed faith to believe he could walk on water.Quote:
I am not the one that would have sank on the water... although, I understand what you were trying to say.
After God parted the Red Sea, Do you think Moses would have said he KNEW God existed or do you think he would have said he "BELIEVED" God existed?Quote:
But hear this: This thread and discussion went way out of control. The argument here is not about the existence of or belief in God. The argument is simply whether SassyT, or any human for that matter, KNOWS that God exists.
What kind of concrete proof are you talking about? Do you mean I would have to give concrete proof to the world or personal concrete proof that confirms His existence to me?Quote:
It is one thing to "believe" God exists... it's unfortunate that so many do not... however, the point that was trying to be made (which seems SO ridiculous now) is simply that to actually "know" that God exists would require concrete proof... concrete proof that she, nor any other human being, has... at least to our (the collective "our") knowledge.
Yes Acura, I don't know why these people don't get it. :confused:: :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Sassy... let me try to get on the same level as you. I truly believe, in my heart of hearts that God exists. So much so that I really want to say that I KNOW He exists... in fact, I believe that I DO know He exists! I know... totally contradictory... but in reality, I cannot actually say that I know He exists based on what it takes to truly KNOW something.
Are you married? It's like being married for 50 years... your significant other loves you every day and shows it every day. There has never been a day in your life that you haven't felt the love of your spouse.
No matter how much you believe that your spouse loves you, you can, unfortunately, never KNOW that he/she does. You cannot know their heart. Only God can, right? In the same right, we cannot KNOW God's existence... no matter how much we believe that we do.
No one... not one... has ever seen God.
No one... not one... can ever prove God.
Not even when the seas were parted has anyone ever seen God.
That is why Faith is required.
God does not want anyone to know His existence. If He did... we simply would ALL know... why not, right?
Also... again, Im not saying anything about you "Knowing God"... that is something completely different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
You Just don't know God like we do, that is why He is a myth to you. But no worries, soon enough when you die you will be up for a rude awakening of Knowing God... :D The look on your face will be priceless, I look forward to that.. hehe :D
While I normally do not agree with Creden's statements about faith and knowing God, nor do I particularly like the way in which he says things at times, he has a right to say whatever he wishes. That is part of free will. We all have the ability to choose what we believe and what we accept as fact and faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
That being said, I believe that God exists. I believe it in my heart of hearts, and yes, I would say that I know He exists because I can look around and see what He created.
But, that is MY opinion. That is MY belief. I cannot make anyone else believe what I believe. I can live my life in such a way that demonstrates what I believe, I can tell other people why I believe in God, but ultimately, I cannot MAKE them believe.
So, you see SassyT, I agree with you. I agree that God does exist.
But, you offended me when you said that you "look forward" to seeing Creden's face when he realizes after death that there is a God. Because, what does that mean, according to the Bible and according to what you believe, those who do not believe will be sent to an eternity in Hell.
In essence, you are saying that you will smile when Creden is sent to Hell. That, my friend, is sad.
It doesn't matter WHAT Creden says to you or anyone else, according to your belief system, you should not joy in another's unbelief. No matter WHAT they say.
[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Okay so help me understand, what does it take to Truly KNOW something? Do you Believe Hitler Existed or do you KNOW Hilter existed? Do you believe Queen Elizabeth Exists or Do you Know She exists?
Yes I am married but you are not comparing apples to apples here. This comparison would be effective if I had said "I know God Love me" however that is not what I am saying. I BELIEVE and Have Faith that God loves me, but I KNOW He exists.Quote:
Are you married? It's like being married for 50 years... your significant other loves you every day and shows it every day. There has never been a day in your life that you haven't felt the love of your spouse.
No matter how much you believe that your spouse loves you, you can, unfortunately, never KNOW that he/she does. You cannot know their heart. Only God can, right? In the same right, we cannot KNOW God's existence... no matter how much we believe that we do.
I know my spouse exists but yes I can never know with certainty if he loves me or not.
This is just your belief, because how do you KNOW that no one has never seen God??Quote:
No one... not one... has ever seen God.
My Brother says he saw God/Jesus when he was on his death bed dying from full blown AIDS (which God has healed). I believe him, you on the other hand, may not believe he saw God but you can never know unless you were in the room with him. There have been many other people who have given accounts of seeing Jesus, or Angels or supernatural beings.. So you can not say the no one has ever seen God, that may be your opinion but it is not a fact.
Well, this is also not necessarily true because there are different kinds of "proof" and what one considers concrete proof may not be proof to another so it is subjective.Quote:
No one... not one... can ever prove God.
Maybe a better way to say it is "No one can ever Scientifically Prove God" and that is the proof most people are looking for however Science is the study of NATURAL Phenomina and God is SUPERnatural.
Yes but they were able to see His power part the red sea. No one has ever seen the wind but we all know it's there because we see its effects. Same with God, even though Moses did no see God, he was able to see the effects of God.Quote:
Not even when the seas were parted has anyone ever seen God.
I believe God wants us to seek Him and find Him and come to know His existence, and many people who seek Him have come to the knowledge of His existence. But there are many who Don't want to Know whether He exists or not and some who have just said he is non existent.Quote:
God does not want anyone to know His existence. If He did... we simply would ALL know... why not, right?
Yes you are right HistoricChick, I should be deeply greived that Cred will probably spend iternity in Hell according to the Word of God. I never thought of that... I repent, God forgive me :(Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianChick
Wasn't it you asking for OSE in the first place?
To be perfectly honest with you, I Don't KNOW Hitler existed. I honestly don't. 1,000,000,000 people could tell me that they saw him in person but that doesn't mean that I KNOW he existed.
That goes for the rest of your examples.
In the truest sense of the word, we, as humans, don't exactly KNOW anything!
We theorize... we conclude... we "prove"... we guess... to the extent that our limited vision of the world, as we know it, will allow us to.
Thus is the point.
And thus is the new extent of silliness that this argument has come to.
Well, DrJ. You are right, I guess one can not even say they know Goerge Bush exists with certainty, Right?. lol That's why I said "as much as i know George Bush exists, is as much as I know God exists. "Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Dear Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Your statement is incorrect : I do not accuse all Christians of being un-christian-like.
I mention those who post un-christian-like statements.
There is even someone here who claims loudly to be a strict Christian, who invited me to carry out blaphemic actions. While you can not have missed that, I did not see you reacting to that at all.
How strange that you always find statements by me to complain about, while much worse statements by "christians" are never mentioned...
It's sad to see you so selective in your complaints.
Peace and kindness to you too,
John
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Back to the subject,
I believe that God Is amazing due to what is recorded that he has done and is capable of plus what I have seen and witnessed in this world.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes Fred. I realize that you believe that, and I respect what you believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
That was never my point.
I question IF "God" is indeed amazing, or that that is just what you and many others believe.
Is all that was recorded ever OSE verified ? Is all that you have seen and witnessed at any time OSE proved?
I don't think so.
Peace and kindness to you too, Fred !
:)
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Credendovidis,
There is no need for OSE for me to Know what which I personally know through my Christan faith which is far more than just belief.
I hope and pray that some day soon you will have the joy and blessings of being a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
For YOU that need may not be there. But for me that proves that all you do is BELIEVE that, dear Fred.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
As for your praying : that day will never came, Fred. I have more than enough joy and blessings in my life already. No need for more of that stuff, specially as they are only based on mythical and religious wild claims.
Have a nice day, Fred.
:)
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While I respect very much your point of view - which I think is typical of today's materialism that overwhelms us - I would like to point out that the joy and blessings that I'm looking forward - and I'm sure Arcura also does - are NOT to be considered of this world, but of the other Kingdom we both believe in. The problem is that all the happiness and riches one may enjoy in this life (which is so short) must be LEFT BEHIND when we GO. This is a very sad fact that nobody can deny, unless one may be looking forward to something infinitely better in the BEYOND!Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Those mythical and religious wild claims may, after all, BE TRUE.
ACTUALLY, THEY ARE TRUE FOR MILLIONS OF US...
But, if we are wrong after all, what have we lost in this life? We have lived a full and peaceful life as you probably have. We have equally been as happy as many and have also been as unhappy at times as anybody else... On the other hand, if we turn out, as we strongly believe, to be right and you are wrong, our prize will be inmense. What will be yours?
Yes of course. When you die you have no further need for anything material.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
But where is the OSE that the promissed "hereafter" is nothing but a mythical claim??
The chances are much higher that they are not true. Pascals Wager has been proved invalid a long time ago !Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
I doubt that. All I see is religious hatred and intolerance.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
Many religious people have lived an almost entire life under the threat of eternal damnation.
Again : Pascals Wager has been proved invalid a long time ago !Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :rolleyes: :D
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Credendovidis
It is sad the you are stuck in a world where OSE s are the only thing of importance.
In the world of spirituality OSE is useless for no way can they prove that there is no God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Cred, do you need OSE for everything? I'm now wondering...
Unknown008 ,
Cred is stuck on that.
He ignores logic when it comes to the reality Of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
"No human being should learn from another. Each individual should develop his own powers to the uttermost, not try to imitate those of someone else."
"Never, never, never, ever give up." Winston Churchill
"I want that people would come even if there is no road at all." David Livingstone
While I do agree on Churchill's and Livingstone's quotes I cannot accept the first one. We are AALWAYS learning from others' experiences. We start learning from others when we go to the kindergarden and we go on through schools and colleges. Then at work and in our carrier when we avail ourselves of the experiences of those that came before us.
Other than that, what has the said quote with the subject matter being debated here?
Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.
That is the way it works for everything but your religion. You don't believe the toothfairy because there is no OSE but god you believe because...
Acura I think you have it backward though religious people ignore logic and reason when it come to god. I think Cred and I would be perfectly open to the idea that there is a god as long as there was some evidence. Even if it was some personal evidence that I couldn't reproduce for you. Frankly there is more evidence for big foot than there is for an all powerful god that watches over us and I don't believe in bigfoot either.
Also the more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence must be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
As you obviously DO NOT consider our fascinating Universe Evidence enough, I think it is quite pointless to follow the debate. You are entitled to your own opinion as Arcura or I are entitled to ours. In other words, I DO NOT uqestion your right to think as you please and/or believe what you want BUT WE (I) expect you to do the same as far as we (I) are concerned.
Michaelb,
I challenge you and every atheist to read Mere Christianity ny C.S. Lewis with an open mind that admits that there just MIGHT be a God.
Lewis was an atheist who believed a lot in and on logic.
His logic is in that book.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I'm not as optimistic as Arcura about the profit you can get out of your reading the book he recommends by C.S.Lewis. You can always look into the Wikipedia under "Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis" to get some addirtional info on this wonderful book.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
But the reason as to why I'm not so optimistic is because I believe that NO OE IS BLINDER THAN HE WHO WILL NOT SEE.
Let me inject one short article by Alexander Green:
Quote:
Last April in Washington D.C., a young man in blue jeans and a T-shirt emerged from the metro and positioned himself against a wall beside a trash basket.
He removed a violin from a small case, threw in a few dollars and pocket change as seed money, and began to play.
Over the next 45 minutes, more than 1,000 people passed by. Six minutes elapsed before anyone stopped to listen. A crowd never gathered. In fact, only seven people stopped to listen for a minute or more. When he was finished, the young man collected the few extra dollars from his violin case and left.
What's so unusual about this? Nothing, apparently.
However, the violinist was no ordinary street performer. It was Joshua Bell, one of the finest classical musicians in the world, playing some of the most elegant music ever written, on one of the most valuable violins ever created, a $3.5 million Stradivarius made in the 1710s.
He was participating in an experiment on "perception and priorities" arranged by The Washington Post.
Three days before, Bell had sold out Boston's Symphony Hall, where the cheap seats went for $100 apiece. Two weeks later, he played to a standing-room-only audience at the Music Center at Strathmore, in North Bethesda.
Just how good is Joshua Bell? One prominent music magazine says his playing "does nothing less than tell human beings why they bother to live."
Despite his genius, not 1% of more than 1,000 passers-by stopped to listen for even one minute.
Some folks, of course, will attribute this to the general public's abysmal taste in music. But I think something more was going on here. And it has nothing to do with musical tastes or even the hectic pace of modern life.
After all, Helen Keller noticed much the same thing more than 70 years ago - and she was deaf and blind. Writing in The Atlantic Monthly in 1933, she said,
"Recently I was visited by a very good friend who had just returned from a long walk in the woods, and I asked her what she had observed. 'Nothing in particular,' she replied. I might have been incredulous had I not been accustomed to such responses, for long ago I became convinced that the seeing see little.
"How was it possible, I asked myself, to walk for an hour through the woods and see nothing of note? I who cannot see find hundreds of things to interest me through mere touch. I feel the delicate symmetry of a leaf. I pass my hands lovingly about the smooth skin of a birch, or the rough, shaggy, bark of a pine. In spring I touch the branches of trees hopefully in search of a bud... I feel the delightful, velvety texture of a flower... I am delighted to have the cool waters of a brook rush through my open fingers. To me a lush carpet of pine needles or spongy grass is more welcome than the most luxurious Persian rug.
"If I can get so much pleasure from mere touch, how much more beauty must be revealed by sight. Yet, those who have eyes apparently see little. The panorama of color and action which fills the world is taken for granted. It is human, perhaps, to appreciate little that which we have and to long for that which we have not, but it is a great pity that in the world of light the gift of sight is used only as a mere convenience rather than a means of adding fullness to life."
I won't comment further on these two stories. They speak volumes by themselves.
However, I will add one brief quote from John Horgan, author of "Rational Mysticsm":
"The best spiritual advice is the simplest: Pay attention. See! Or rather, cherish. Cherish what you have before it's gone."
Actually the quote is: "None are so blind as those who will not see." And it kind of works both ways here.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
Actually this seems to be an old proverb attributed to the Englishman, John Heywood, in 1546 -- and used by Jonathan Swift in 1738, and in America by Thomas Chalkey in 1713, which says, "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
But, other than that, and while I agree it does work both ways here, let me just say that figures tend to show that we might be right.
According to a 2005 survey published in Encyclopędia Britannica they find that the non-religious make up about 11.9% of the world's population, and atheists about 2.3%. So we should conclude that those who believe in some sort of god may add to some 5.700 billion people against some 150 million who simply DO NOT believe in anything except in themselves.
Now, of the above 5.700 billion some 2.000 billion (approx. 35%) happen to be Chritians, i.e. close to 14 times more than atheists.
Chances are, therefore, that the above proverb may rather be applied to the lesser number (the exception) than to the majority. At least in sheer logic!
Sorry, I don't follow something simply because it's popular. And yes, I do believe in myself... and my family, and my friends, and that the sun will come up tomorrow, and that I like cinnamon buns, I believe in a lot of things, just not in a god that I should worship.
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