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  • Jun 13, 2008, 08:14 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    homosexual life style is not listed anywhere. And they enjoy every right everyone else has,
    Except to marry and get a tax break. Personally, if they want the headache of divorce, let 'em get married, since that's where half the marriages end up anyway.

    I'm still trying to figure out this "homosexual lifestyle" that's being throw around. Is that the same as living together, making babies, and NOT being married?

    Be careful of your answer as I know where there are endless amounts of posts about the "lifestyles of heterosexuals".

    I also think eventually, as with every other group who wants equality, they will fight for, and win what they want.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 08:22 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kia
    yea... umm... but homosexuality is not genteic in 98% of the cases. I can't say 100% because just like there are hermaphrodites, people born with deformities, and other rare instances, there are natural born homosexuals. But, the masses who claim they are were not born this way. They had childood trauma that affected them subconsciously, or consciously; they want to experiment or be rebellious; or they are so bitter with one sex that they decide to try something new.

    That's an age old excuse to rationalise not having empathy, "its all their fault". As to the part of the post that's been highlighted, are you serious??
  • Jun 13, 2008, 08:24 AM
    Kia
    All of them claim it is " natural"
    I take my experience from playing women's basketball for over 10 years in college and high school. I used to believe it was natural too until I watched my fellow teammates and roomates go from one extreme to another , and then claim after the fact that they were always like that. Every single year there a were always new freshman who would come in straight as an arrow( talking about boyfriends and all that). Then they would end up hanging out with the crowd who everyone knew were bi or gay, talkin' about how they do not discriminate, and a few months later have a new GIRLFRIEND. It was bull. Then they claimed they were always lesbian.

    I had 2 roommates who started college the same year as I did. They were straight when we started playing but changed later on. After talking to them more often they told me the real story. One of them liked guys, but the guys she liked never wanted her( treated her like one of the boys), and when she started at our particular school all these women started telling her how pretty she was so she started hanging out with them more often. She said her self confidence was boosted. Then she moved to the gay crowd, and said she loved being gay & didn't want to go back. She said she doesn't really look at men like that anymore. If you met her today, you would never believe that she EVER liked a man. She was real flamboyant, tough & rebellious against anyone telling her what to do. Always focusing on her "rights" as a human being to do whatever she wants to.

    The other one slept around with a lot of men and got heartbroken while in our 2 and year when I was here roommate. She started hanging out with " the crowd"; sudenly all types of butch gay chicks were always in my room. I had to leave 1/2 the time. She told me women understood women's emotions more & she liked to use strapons with them. But she claimed to be bi.

    These were some of the converations I had, and they used to tell me stories about their friends who were gay as well. I have a couple other stories , to share from playing AAU & high school ball, but but I won't write all of that today.

    That's when I stopped believing that being gay is "natural", its not. There's always a reason... and if you dig deep enough you will find one almost 100% of the time.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 08:35 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kia
    to excon-
    yes i do. i did say that. I said that I'm not asking the state to validate my behavior. Your argument is a liitle silly..but ok. I'm not asking the state to validate my sexual behavior so its different

    Hello again, Kia:

    If you are married, and you take advantage of the rights bestowed upon you by the state, then you are INDEED asking the state to validate your behavior.

    But you DO recognize that a penis fits nicely into a mouth, and that's OK to do that, even though your mouth wasn't designed that way. So, your "design" argument is out the window, right??

    Nahhh, I think you're just a hypocrite.

    excon
  • Jun 13, 2008, 08:42 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    It was bull. Then they claimed they were always lesbian.
    Given the attitudes of people against gays, wouldn't you keep it to yourself to fit in and not be singled out for ridicule? Many that were in the closet are coming out, and just being themselves. In humans homosexuality is not as cut and dried as we think, as there are varying degrees of sexuality, that others refuse to recognize.

    Speaking of nature, there are many species that are asexual, yet reproduce, and there are those that actually changes sex, to propagate the species, so nature finds a way, whether us humans understand it, or not.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 08:49 AM
    Kia
    Nooooo excon. Is the mouth designed to birth babies? Is the rectal area not designed to relieve waste? Duh.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 09:13 AM
    Synnen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kia
    nooooo excon. Is the mouth designed to birth babies? Is the rectal area not designed to relieve waste? duh.


    I really, truly hope that you only have sex to have babies, then. Seriously--if that's your argument, I never, EVER want to see a question about you getting pleasure from sex, or about birth control.

    Because sex is for babies ONLY--in your opinion.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 11:16 AM
    Tuscany
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kia
    yea... umm... but homosexuality is not genteic in 98% of the cases. I can't say 100% because just like there are hermaphrodites, people born with deformities, and other rare instances, there are natural born homosexuals. But, the masses who claim they are were not born this way. They had childood trauma that affected them subconsciously, or consciously; they want to experiment or be rebellious; or they are so bitter with one sex that they decide to try something new.

    Hmmm I guess I should ask Aunt Donna about this. She never had any childhood trauma nor was she burned by the opposite sex. In fact her ex husband and her are extremely close, best friends really. She just could not live the lie anymore. She had to be who she is. Now she wants rights like she had when she was married.

    Can you please point me to that study. Thank you

    Edit: Excon, Tal and Synn: RIGHT ON
  • Jun 13, 2008, 11:36 AM
    classyT
    No. I don't think it is natural and it is hard for me not to tell you why without referring to the Bible. My cousin is gay and I love her dearly she is so much fun to be with. I just think the lifestyle is wrong in God's eyes. I wouldn't hate someone because of it nor do I believe God does.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 11:57 AM
    Kia
    Like I said a lot of people don't admit what they have gone through in childhood, don't remember, or were to young to realize what they were exposed to. There are a lot of situations where a seed ( molestation, hanging around other family members, etc.) was planted in a child's mind when children are very young and they grow up with feelings they can't explain. Then they grow up thinking they were " born" that way, when that wasn't really the case.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 11:59 AM
    talaniman
    At least ancient man had his own survival to worry about henceforth his stance against gay people, but we no longer have that excuse.

    A very disturbing thought has just crossed my mind, are me and my wife wrong for still enjoying sex with each other. Trust me we ain't looking for no more kids, more grandkids would be okay though, we're going for a baseball team.

    Some one please let me know as its Friday night.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 12:01 PM
    Kia
    Everyone knows sex was obvously made by God for procreation. Let's not deny this; the pleasure part is an add on. Sex in the world JUST for pleasure. Humans do it for pleasure and enjoyment, but it was not created for this purpose alone.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 12:43 PM
    Synnen
    Not everyone knows that "god" put it there. As a matter of fact, MY goddess doesn't give a damn who's having sex with whom, as long as people treat each other well, cause no harm and do not take away the free will of others. But hey--YOU brought gods into this, not me. Your god means nothing to me, nor do his "rules". So... I should have to live by YOUR religion's rules, is that what you're telling me? And homosexuals, as well, should live by YOUR religion's rules? Who died and made YOUR religion boss? I thought there was SEPARATION of church and state in this country!

    By making sex pleasurable, nature did indeed ensure that species would WANT to procreate--but take a gander into Adult Sexuality sometime and count how many posts a month we have from women who can't orgasm. And really, the woman doesn't NEED to orgasm (or even enjoy sex) for procreation to take place. Ask the pregnant victim of a rape about that.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 01:07 PM
    NotMyName
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    Sorry to burst your bubble Notmyname, that would defenately make you a lesbian. ;)
    Dont lie to yourself.

    (Sassy was responding to me saying that I like anal and am bi-curious, haven't even tried)
    Wow, my boyfriend will be so dissapointed to find that out.
    Sassy, don't be a pawn.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 01:36 PM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NotMyName
    (Sassy was responding to me saying that I like anal and am bi-curious, haven't even tried)
    Wow, my boyfriend will be so dissapointed to find that out.
    Sassy, don't be a pawn.

    bi-curious, lesbian, homosexual, bisexual, try-sexual = Gay
  • Jun 13, 2008, 01:51 PM
    Kia
    Well u guys can live in a fantasy world where there is a separation of church and state, but the reality is that religion plays a major part in this country; like it or not. So all you guys can kick and scream because things are not "fair", but taxes aren't fair either... so deal with it..
    Also, I would be afraid to have some of you in charge of the laws because there would be no standards, gays, bi-sexuals, transsexuals, animal lovers, polygamists, etc. would all be okay and have lawful rights to marriage as long as they are "consenting" adults.
    There really have to be some standards, and this is just one of them. If you don't like it... move to a country where gay marriage is legal, period.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 01:55 PM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kia
    If you don't like it...move to a country where gay marraige is legal, period.

    No thanks, I like my progressive country. How about YOU move because YOU don't like the CHANGES that are taking place? There are countries where it's illegal to be gay, you know. Maybe you can volunteer to round all the gays in that country up and "dispose" of them.
  • Jun 13, 2008, 01:55 PM
    Kia
    Prayers to Gods and goddessess, human sacrifice, anything goes right?
  • Jun 13, 2008, 02:05 PM
    Synnen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kia
    prayers to Gods and goddessess, human sacrifice, anything goes right?

    How sadly uninformed you are.

    I know of NO religion that practices human sacrifice--what part of "harm none" and "free will" didn't you catch there?

    As far as religion playing a part in politics--well, of course it does. That doesn't mean that the religion with the greatest population gets their way, though. That's what the Constitution is for, and why we have an electoral college, and why laws are made making SURE the state can't promote a particular religion.

    I'd be MORE scared to have you in a place of power, honestly. Change is good, as a general rule. We (as humans) don't grow to our greatest potential without change, even change we don't like. As far as standards go--what are yours? That no one be non-Christian, have moonlight dances for their goddess, that families always stay together for the good of the children, even if abuse is involved? Seriously--what are YOUR standards? Should all people living in sin, together without the benefit of marriage be stoned to death for fornication? That still happens in several countries in the world, you know. How about children born out of wedlock be taken from their mothers and given to the state to be place for adoption, so that all of those poor desperate couples longing for a child will finally have a chance at an infant?

    You look at greater good over individual rights, and I look at individual rights over the greater good--so long as they do not willfully HARM the greater good.

    Your god is all powerful, right? He can probably take care of himself, then. He doesn't need you to crusade for him--if he REALLY hates gays, he can just smite them! Or deny them entrance to heaven, or whatever. Who are YOU to judge what HE wants, hmmm?

    I'd rather have my "anything goes, as long as it's not harming anyone" over your "dont' do it because it's EVIL, and I can't even give you a reason why except that god says it is" any day.
  • Jun 14, 2008, 05:27 AM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kia
    well u guys can live in a fantasy world where there is a separation of church and state, but the reality is that religion plays a major part in this country; like it or not. So all you guys can kick and scream because things are not "fair", but taxes aren't fair either... so deal with it..

    You might consider the US Constitution a fantasy, but I take it very seriously. I have no prob w/ rel being a 'major part of this country,' but this is not a Christian nation no matter what you've been led to believe (a treaty from the 1800s spells that out distinctly). So making other live by your narrow religious rules is unconstitutional. And what kind of selfishness makes you settle for just living with what's not fair?

    Quote:

    Also, I would be afraid to have some of you in charge of the laws because there would be no standards, gays, bi-sexuals, transsexuals, animal lovers, polygamists, etc. would all be okay and have lawful rights to marriage as long as they are "consenting" adults.
    There really have to be some standards, and this is just one of them. If you don't like it... move to a country where gay marriage is legal, period.

    A standard by whose definition? Yours? Society would not allow many of the things you seem to fear for a variety of reasons - only 1 being religious. And in this country, while the majority rules, there are provisions in the Constitution to prevent majority tyranny.

    If you want to live in a theocracy, move to one.
  • Jun 14, 2008, 11:50 AM
    JoeCanada76
    What about the american money. In God We Trust. Is not America founded on Christian principles. Well marriage is a spiritual and religion based communion between one female, and one male. So there is nothing that can change that. There is no grey area here. Marriage is an institution set up through the principles that are religion based. Marriage is for a man and women. Not the same sex. That is always the case and will never change.

    I am not against gays, I believe we all have a right to live the way each individual wants to live but as far as having the right to get married. That is a right that they do not have and should never have. They can be together, they can live their lives as they want and be treated like we all want to be treated but marriage is not negotiable.
  • Jun 14, 2008, 12:02 PM
    WVHiflyer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
    What about the american money. In God We Trust. Is not America founded on Christian principles.

    That motto was added in the 1950s (it's also when 'under God' was added to the Pledge). Before the religious decided to start the myth in earnest that this was a Christian nation, the country's motto was e pluribus unum. Since that changed, we haven't been...

    This country was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, there was nothing 'Christian' about it.
  • Jun 14, 2008, 12:33 PM
    Synnen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WVHiflyer
    That motto was added in the 1950s (it's also when 'under God' was added to the Pledge). Before the religious decided to start the myth in earnest that this was a Christian nation, the country's motto was e pluribus unum. Since that changed, we haven't been....

    This country was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, there was nothing 'Christian' about it.

    I looked this up before I found it already posted--nice post, WVHF. I did find out, though, that "In God We Trust" started appearing on coins in the 1860s, which is still several decades after the founding of this country.

    Common sense about the greater good is REFLECTED in Christian principles. Just because this country was founded on common sense (like--honor your parents, don't kill people, don't steal, do unto others as they'd do unto you), doesn't mean it was founded as a CHRISTIAN country. In fact, the founding fathers deliberately did NOT make this a Christian country, but one where ALL religion would be welcome.

    So--our laws are based on the greater good, not on Christian principles.

    Granted, this is from Wiki, so should be taken with a grain of salt, but Jefferson was actually AGAINST the Bible and religion being used in politics

    Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As far as some of the OTHER founding fathers are concerned--well, some of them WERE good Christians, of various denominations, but some of them were VERY outspoken against religion in general, especially Jefferson and Franklin.

    The Founding Fathers Speak Out on God, Religion and the First Amendment

    So--don't tell me that our country was founded on Christianity. It wasn't. The Christian principles used were the same basic principles found in most religions all over the world.

    I believe in the Constitution more than I believe in the Bible, and even THAT has been amended to account for the greater good of this country, and of the equality of ALL people in this country. Blacks and women were once thought (and there were supporting Bible stories!) to be less than men, and had fewer freedoms and privileges because of it. Our country is progressive enough to realize that change MUST be made to assure that "All men are created equal", and therefore have equal rights and privileges.
  • Jun 14, 2008, 04:58 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
    Crede: I don't think you need to point that out. I think it's quite obvious what my beliefs are according to what I post. That's why I post comments, to let others know what I believe.

    So you THINK that. No problem with that. But I disagree with the conclusion you draw. Because there is no objective supporting evidence for what you BELIEVE, so i.e. you post what YOU believe, and not what IS !
    The question "Is Homosexuality Wrong" refers to the extreme negative influence religion has on the lives of many homo-sexuals.

    And so far ( #184 ) I have not seen any proper based argument to support that extreme negative influence.

    :rolleyes:
  • Jun 14, 2008, 05:31 PM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Synnen
    I looked this up before I found it already posted--nice post, WVHF. I did find out, though, that "In God We Trust" started appearing on coins in the 1860s, which is still several decades after the founding of this country.

    Common sense about the greater good is REFLECTED in Christian principles. Just because this country was founded on common sense (like--honor your parents, don't kill people, don't steal, do unto others as they'd do unto you), doesn't mean it was founded as a CHRISTIAN country. In fact, the founding fathers deliberately did NOT make this a Christian country, but one where ALL religion would be welcome.

    So--our laws are based on the greater good, not on Christian principles.

    Granted, this is from Wiki, so should be taken with a grain of salt, but Jefferson was actually AGAINST the Bible and religion being used in politics

    Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As far as some of the OTHER founding fathers are concerned--well, some of them WERE good Christians, of various denominations, but some of them were VERY outspoken against religion in general, especially Jefferson and Franklin.

    The Founding Fathers Speak Out on God, Religion and the First Amendment

    So--don't tell me that our country was founded on Christianity. It wasn't. The Christian principles used were the same basic principles found in most religions all over the world.

    I believe in the Constitution more than I believe in the Bible, and even THAT has been amended to account for the greater good of this country, and of the equality of ALL people in this country. Blacks and women were once thought (and there were supporting Bible stories!) to be less than men, and had fewer freedoms and privileges because of it. Our country is progressive enough to realize that change MUST be made to assure that "All men are created equal", and therefore have equal rights and privileges.


    Quote:


    The Declaration of Independence


    IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
    hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of NATURE'S GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED equal, that they are endowed by THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

    Off the op topic, but

    The founding father's were overwhelmingly Christian. The historical context is that although they were religious, they did not want the government to impose a single state sanctioned religion. Catholics can worship the way they want, protestants can worship the way they wanted, etc... they wanted that right of religious expression [first ] established at the outset.



    The founding fathers did not use terms like "we all evolved equally," or "it's just common sense...," or " based on our study of past and present cultutres....." or "it's self evident that we should all just follow the golden rule...." :D
  • Jun 14, 2008, 05:58 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    The founding father's were overwhelmingly Christian.

    Mainy of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian...

    :rolleyes:
  • Jun 15, 2008, 10:48 AM
    Synnen
    "Their Creator" allows each person to believe in whatever creator they like---not the Christian creator.

    "Nature's God" probably comes closer to MY religion--as a Wiccan and a pagan and the fact that at least PART of my religion worships nature--than it comes to the Christian's god, though really, in the end, it's again open to interpretation as ANY god one wants to believe in. I mean, if you believe in a god, then you probably believe that that god created nature, right?

    And I mean, if you really want to get picky about it, it states that all MEN are created equal--not all mankind, or all men and women, but all MEN. Does that mean that the interpretation of the Declaration is that women are subservient and should go back to being in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant and making their husbands or fathers happy?
  • Jun 16, 2008, 04:03 AM
    Tuscany
    Bringing the founding fathers in this argument is BS because the world has changed a great deal from when they were writing the Declaration of Independence. Heck the Dof I says that ALL MEN were created equal... we have changed that. As the world changes so to does society. THANK GOD we do not have the same rules and laws that the founding fathers had when they were writing the Declaration. The scary thing is that they were writing to declare freedom from their oppressor (England), but now the oppressed has become the oppressor.
  • Jun 16, 2008, 04:19 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tuscany
    Bringing the founding fathers in this argument is BS ...

    Indeed, specially as "inthebox" started using the founding fathers as argument for an otherwise unsupported wild claim !

    ;)
  • Jun 16, 2008, 04:39 AM
    bushg
    [QUOTE=Credendovidis]Mainy of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian...

    :rolleyes:[/QUOTE

    Did you make a typo here "Mainy"? :rolleyes:
  • Jun 16, 2008, 04:44 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bushg
    Did you make a typo here "Mainy"?

    As I stated before : I too make typing errors. Just as we all do. However not so many as some of those here who's mother tongue is English...

    ;)

    Can we now return to the question " Is Homosexuality Wrong? "

    :D
  • Jun 16, 2008, 09:21 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Mainy of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian ....

    :rolleyes:

    Do you have any objective evidence for this or is this yet another one of your BELIEFS?. lol your unsupported beliefs are aways a bit far fetched.




    97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools.

    187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

    Quotes from founding fathers

    William Bradford
    “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"

    John Adams and John Hancock:
    We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
    “ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
    John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

    Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
    “ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

    In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

    In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

    Alexander Hamilton:
    “The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

    On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

    John Hancock:
    • “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness…
    A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775

    Thomas Jefferson:
    “ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

    Samuel Johnston:• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc. may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
    [Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

    James Madison
    “ We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

    James Wilson:
    Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
    Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
    Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

    "Christianity is part of the common law"
    [Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

    George Washington:

    “ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

    “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
  • Jun 16, 2008, 09:25 AM
    Synnen
    Sassy--Did you read any of the links that I posted?

    I guess next time I'll have to just copy and paste as you did. I had linked a page with several quotes from the Founding Fathers that were AGAINST a specific religion, or speaking against the Bible.
  • Jun 16, 2008, 09:25 AM
    Tuscany
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    Do you have any objective evidence for this or is this yet another one of your BELIEFS? ..lol your beliefs are aways a bit far fetched.




    97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools.

    187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

    Quotes from founding fathers

    William Bradford
    “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"

    John Adams and John Hancock:
    We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
    “ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
    John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

    Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
    “ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

    In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

    In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

    Alexander Hamilton:
    “The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

    On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

    John Hancock:
    • “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness…
    A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775

    Thomas Jefferson:
    “ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

    Samuel Johnston:• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
    [Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

    James Madison
    “ We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

    James Wilson:
    Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
    Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
    Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

    "Christianity is part of the common law"
    [Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

    George Washington:

    “ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

    “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]


    These are all wonderful quotes from men that have been dead for 100s of years. And although they were great men, they were speaking of the world they lived in back then. The world that we live in is quite different. Imagine if we stuck with the All MEN are created equal- where would women in today's society be? Certainly not in the running for the presidential nomination.

    Times change and it is important that society changes with them.
  • Jun 16, 2008, 09:52 AM
    sassyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tuscany
    These are all wonderful quotes from men that have been dead for 100s of years. And although they were great men, they were speaking of the world they lived in back then. The world that we live in is quite different. Imagine if we stuck with the All MEN are created equal- where would women in today's society be? Certainly not in the running for the presidental nomination.

    Times change and it is important that society changes with them.

    I just quoted them to dispel the outrageous and missleading claims that were being made by some people here. You all were saying the Founding fathers were not Christian.. lol that's a joke.:rolleyes:
  • Jun 16, 2008, 09:59 AM
    Synnen
    Actually, we DIDN'T say the Founding Fathers weren't Christian.

    Just that not ALL of them were.

    And the MAIN argument was that this country was NOT founded on Christian principles.

    And the reason we are this far off topic at this point is that one of the arguments used against homosexuality and allowing gay marriages in this country is that the founding fathers were CHRISTIAN, and that this country was created based on Christian principles.

    So... as Tuscany says--it's really not the relevant. I'm just pointing out the reasoning for the side topic to begin with.
  • Jun 16, 2008, 10:00 AM
    Tuscany
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    I just quoted them to dispell the outrageous and missleading claims that were being made by some people here. You all were saying the Founding fathers were not Christian..lol thats a joke.:rolleyes:

    Good so then you agree that society has changed since the declaration. And although very intellegent the founding fathers had no idea what our society would be like in 2008. Therefore, it is realistic that when the founding father's wrote the D of I they could have meant ALL MEN were created equal- man, woman, black, white, gay straight. So now we need to treat all men equal. Case closed.
  • Jun 16, 2008, 10:04 AM
    N0help4u
    Whether they were Christian, deist or atheists they did understand the value of considering a persons religious freedoms to be important. If not why are there so many religious statutes and so forth on the government buildings in DC?
    Anyway whether the founding fathers were or weren't is only going to end up very off topic.
  • Jun 16, 2008, 10:05 AM
    Tuscany
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Synnen
    Actually, we DIDN'T say the Founding Fathers weren't Christian.

    Just that not ALL of them were.

    And the MAIN argument was that this country was NOT founded on Christian principles.

    And the reason we are this far off topic at this point is that one of the arguments used against homosexuality and allowing gay marriages in this country is that the founding fathers were CHRISTIAN, and that this country was created based on Christian principles.

    So...as Tuscany says--it's really not the relevant. I'm just pointing out the reasoning for the side topic to begin with.

    Thanks for clarifying Synn.
  • Jun 16, 2008, 03:58 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sassyT
    I just quoted them to dispell the outrageous and missleading claims that were being made by some people here. You all were saying the Founding fathers were not Christian..lol thats a joke.:rolleyes:

    No, that's not a joke.

    As usual you are twisting words, you lie, and you misrepresent what others stated.
    Nobody mentioned anything on none of the founding fathers being Christians.

    Personally I stated that "many of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christian"...

    Now please prove me wrong, or rectify your statements...

    :rolleyes: ;) :D ;) :rolleyes:

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