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Originally Posted by elscarta

As I have asked in a previous post, how much do you value "free will"? All of the above happen because of "free will". People choose to rape, kill, maim, hurt, molest and start wars.

Say the government announced that they had developed a drug that would take away free will and make people only do good, how many people do you think would choose to take it? Would it be OK for the government to force people to take it?

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No, because it takes our free will away :)... the Government can place it as a martial law and what then? We have no choice. God gives choice... even if bad things happen; there is always a choice. When I said "God can not control what someone does" that he can not stop anything from happening (even if good people get hurt) because the man is sinful and able to make those choices not GOD. (Example of the boy and the birds nest or Elliot's examples of War) I just don't want God blamed for these bad things... we are or the person committing such acts is. We need to take accountability... so I agree with you on that point.

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I just don't want God blamed for these bad things... we are or the person committing such acts is. We need to take accountability... so I agree with you on that point.

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And that's exactly my point. I'm not blaming God because I don't think he intervenes in any way. You're right, people are to blame because God doesn't interact with us, he doesn't step in, that's what I believe.

Elscarta, no, I wouldn't take a pill that takes away my free will. That's just it, I do believe that God gave us free will, a lot of it. In my opinion he built the earth and left. I still don't think you're fulling understanding my beliefs. You keep trying to put God into the equation, but for me, he was only in the equation at the beginning.

You're focusing on why I think God doesn't intervene. You're trying to come up with every argument as to why we have all the hardship in our world. You believe it's the free will God gave us, I believe it's just free will and that God hasn't had a thing to do with any of it, good or bad.

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Right you are.. And I had that conversaion on another thread. Why scripture and God does offer the law to keep us straight. But the answer I got to doing it God's way was said to be lack of freedom. Even the thought of pray would be unacceptible if it is mandated in our minds to do.

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You don't need scripture or God to keep yourself "straight". Not everyone that believes in God is a good person, just like people who don't believe in God aren't necessarily bad people. Prayer, the bible, those things aren't needed to be a decent human being.

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May thoughts are why refuse to pray if it brings goodness? If prayer brings the intervention of blessing? Especially when you see the world around us in the solar system is made so perfectly.

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You believe that prayer brings goodness. You believe that it brings the intervention of blessing. You believe these things because you believe in the bible and a God that is involved in your life. This is not a matter of "why not do it?" it's a matter of belief. Prayer is part of your faith, but not part of everyone's.

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It take a surrendering heart in knowing you can't do it yourself. You can goal your own actions, but you can't make the entire world follow you. (the opinion is, that pride makes someone think God's way is not the best way, instead they want freedom)

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I know I can't do it myself, but I also know that God hasn't ever helped me along the way. People have helped me, my family, my friends and myself.

Pride has nothing to do with not believing in your God. Lack of proof in the God you believe in, that's the main reason that people don't believe. It's called faith for a reason, because it requires faith of something unseen, unprovable. You believe in a book, in a feeling. If that's what works for you then great, but some people need more then that.

As for wanting freedom, freedom from what? Everyone in this world has to abide by laws and rules. No one is "free". Do you think that I really need a book to tell me that lying is wrong, that adultery is wrong, that murder is wrong? Believing in God doesn't give you a conscience, being a good person does that.

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God did gives us liberty of Law, liberty to sin or not to sin.

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That's what you believe, it's not fact.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Believing in God doesn't give you a conscience, being a good person does that.

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God gave us a conscience when he made us. Even bad people have consciences. The bad people know what's right, but choose the wrong. Even Ted Bundy and Jeff Dahmer knew what was right.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I still don't think you're fulling understanding my beliefs.

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I do understand your beliefs, Deism isn't hard to understand, but the whole point of this thread is "Why you believe in Deism". All I am trying to understand is your reasoning about why you believe in Deism.

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Originally Posted by elscarta

I do understand your beliefs, Deism isn't hard to understand, but the whole point of this thread is "Why you believe in Deism". All I am trying to understand is your reasoning about why you believe in Deism.

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I think I already covered that.

The thing is, my reasons aren't reasonable to you. You believe in a loving caring God, one that cares for his creation, even with all the evidence that He doesn't.

So let me ask you. What makes you believe that God cares? What has happened in your life that makes you think that God intervenes?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

God gave us a conscience when he made us. Even bad people have consciences. The bad people know what's right, but choose the wrong. Even Ted Bundy and Jeff Dahmer knew what was right.

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Love you WG, you know that. But I disagree. My parents gave me a conscience. They're the ones that taught me right from wrong. They're the ones that nurtured my body, my mind and my soul. God had nothing to do with it.

Most of the bad people in the world are a product of their environment, their upbringing. It's the parents that caused this, or society. God didn't have a hand in it. That's what I believe.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Love you WG, you know that. But I disagree. My parents gave me a conscience. They're the ones that taught me right from wrong. They're the ones that nurtured my body, my mind and my soul. God had nothing to do with it.

Most of the bad people in the world are a product of their environment, their upbringing. It's the parents that caused this, or society. God didn't have a hand in it. That's what I believe.

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Had you been raised in solitary confinement, you would have a conscience. Your parents guided you in knowing what was (their opinion about) right and wrong, and that could have been different from what my parents taught me about right and wrong. But when push comes to shove, you already knew there was a difference.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Had you been raised in solitary confinement, you would have a conscience. Your parents guided you in knowing what was (their opinion about) right and wrong, and that could have been different from what my parents taught me about right and wrong. But when push comes to shove, you already knew there was a difference.

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That I also don't agree with.

There have been studies of children that were, for all intents and purposes, raised in solitary confinement. They were either abandoned or forgotten, and because of that they did not know the difference between right and wrong. They killed in order to eat. They stole in order to survive. They could not be around human beings because they didn't know how.

I was taught the difference, that's why I know. Those children were not taught. They were born the same as everyone, an empty slate, waiting to be filled, waiting to be taught. Because they weren't taught they grew up without a "conscience".

I respect your opinion WG but I have seen too much evidence that God does not intervene. These children are the perfect example.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

That I also don't agree with.

There have been studies of children that were, for all intents and purposes, raised in solitary confinement. They were either abandoned or forgotten, and because of that they did not know the difference between right and wrong. They killed in order to eat. They stole in order to survive. They could not be around human beings because they didn't know how.

I was taught the difference, that's why I know. Those children were not taught. They were born the same as everyone, an empty slate, waiting to be filled, waiting to be taught. Because they weren't taught they grew up without a "conscience".

I respect your opinion WG but I have seen too much evidence that God does not intervene. These children are the perfect example.

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Of course, you have to say that, because if you didn't, your entire Deism idea would be at risk. And we would all be savages if we didn't have moral parents who taught us right from wrong?

I'm surprised in a way, though, since I'm sure you have observed your very young children exhibiting a conscience even before they were given and understood your moral teachings. "The development of a conscience begins in infancy, with the attachment that children develop with their caretakers. The bond between an infant and other caring adults creates a trusting relationship. Infants want to please these adults and act in ways to gain that approval." (Gregory Ramey, child psychologist, Dayton, OH)

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Of course, you have to say that, because if you didn't, your entire Deism idea would be at risk. And we would all be savages if we didn't have moral parents who taught us right from wrong?

I'm surprised in a way, though, since I'm sure you have observed your very young children exhibiting a conscience even before they were given and understood your moral teachings. "The development of a conscience begins in infancy, with the attachment that children develop with their caretakers. The bond between an infant and other caring adults creates a trusting relationship. Infants want to please these adults and act in ways to gain that approval." (Gregory Ramey, child psychologist, Dayton, OH)

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WG, your quote from Gregory Ramey seems to support the position of Altenweg. If the development of a conscience "begins in infancy", then, obviously, it's environmental - not something already put there by God.

Altenweg, your support (belief in ?) of deism strikes me equally as something not logically supportable. Why posit a God who is uninterested in his creation? To me, that position is remarkably foreign to everything we see around us - including the bad things.

Deists tend to avoid the difficult intellectual struggle with suffering by saying, in effect, God doesn't care, but you don't want to eliminate God entirely. You want to have your cake, and eat it, too.

I have no answer to these profound questions, but I wonder about mysterious things - people who have been good to me when there was no reason for them to be. The mother who gives her life for her child. The soldier falling on a grenade.

"Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friend". This familiar saying has become almost a cliché, but it does point to a possible answer to the great mystery of life.

Maybe "God" has made us susceptible to this thing called love, to confound us with all our rational approaches which never seem to really work, or to never solve questions we constantly come up with.

Maybe we were never intended to fully understand life, just to live it as lovingly as possible.

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Originally Posted by Athos

WG, your quote from Gregory Ramey seems to support the position of Altenweg. If the development of a conscience "begins in infancy", then, obviously, it's environmental - not something already put there by God.

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No, not environmental and not taught. The parents then work with what already is there.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, not environmental and not taught. The parents then work with what already is there.

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If you want to change your position, that's OK. But that's not what your Ramey quote said.

Read it again (what you yourself posted), it "begins in infancy". Begins! Begins means "begins".

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Originally Posted by Athos

If you want to change your position, that's ok. But that's not what your Ramey quote said.

Read it again (what you yourself posted), it "begins in infancy". Begins! Begins means "begins".

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And what moral lessons are taught in infancy?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And what moral lessons are taught in infancy?

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You would have to ask that question of the person you quoted.

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Originally Posted by Athos

You would have to ask that question of the person you quoted.

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None are taught at that early age. The trusting bond between parent and child is what he is talking about. If the bond isn't there, the conscience usually doesn't develop properly, although there are children who turn out moral despite their parents.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

None are taught at that early age. The trusting bond between parent and child is what he is talking about. If the bond isn't there, the conscience usually doesn't develop properly, although there are children who turn out moral despite their parents.

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That's fine, but that's not what you originally said (via the Ramey quote). If you wish to change your first position, I have no problem with that.

Changing a point of view is a mark of a good intelligence. Being unable to change is a clear mark of insecurity.

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Originally Posted by Athos

That's fine, but that's not what you originally said (via the Ramey quote).

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Then how about this one:

Romans 2:14-15 --

14When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Then how about this one:

Romans 2:14-15 --

14When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them

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Are you trying to prove a point by quoting the Bible? You must be kidding, or very desperate.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Are you trying to prove a point by quoting the Bible? You must be kidding, or very desperate.

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That's the proof passage that a child is born with a conscience.