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Originally Posted by
Altenweg
And you have proof that God made them happen? Your faith leads you to the conclusion that God healed them. I don't have that faith.
No. I don't have "proof" that G-d made them happen. But I have no other explanation. And logic suggests that if every other possibility has been exhausted, then what's left, no matter how implausible, must be the answer. Science has ruled out all other possibilities for these events. Ergo, the only thing left is divine intervention.
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I don't know much about the Jewish faith, so please forgive me if I'm wrong, but you do follow the bible, nes pas?
Yes.
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If so, then isn't the God of the bible the all loving "father" of the all the people on earth?
That is the incorrect assumption you are making.
What makes you think that G-d loves everyone. It may say that in the New Testament, but Judaism doesn't accept the New Testament. The Old Testament has no source that says that G-d loves everyone equally. In fact, there are several sources within the bible that say the exact opposite.
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Do you have children?
Yes, two, a boy and a girl, 8 & 7.
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of your children had cancer and you had the power to take it away, wouldn't you?
Yes I would.
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d, according to you, seems to pick those he'll heal.
Yes he does.
Using a variation of your own example, would I heal my worst enemy? Especially if doing so is damaging to my own goals to better the world around me?
Hell no.
Would you?
Now... would I heal a complete stranger, or someone with whom I had only a passing relationship? Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Are you any different?
Should G-d be any different?
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He also seems to let very bad things happen to a lot of his children.
Yes he does...
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Where was he when my cousin was molesting me? Where was he when I was being raped?
Probably the same place he was when I was being molested at the age of 10 by a camp counselor or having the crap kicked out of me by "teachers" who thought beating up a student was a good motivator for learning.
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I believed in the God of the bible then, but he did nothing to stop my suffering. What "greater good" can come out of the things I and so many other people have been put through?
Perhaps the "greater good" is a greater realization today of the harm that these people cause and a greater effort to stop them. That is certainly the trend we are seeing in modern society. Or perhaps the greater good is something we haven't seen and simply don't know yet.
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We have. If Scott is anything like me (sorry Scott if I'm wrong) he thought long and hard, researched, questioned and soul searched for a long time before choosing Deism. I went to Catholic school for 10 years, I was raised a Lutheran, I wasn't a devout Lutheran or Catholic, but I did have bible study and plenty of time to research and question.
I believe that both of you have examined your beliefs before you came to them. I am not questioning that. All I am saying, and what I try to practice for myself, is that such examination can't be a one-time thing. It has to be CONSTANT and ongoing through the lens of new experience and new information received. I hope that you do that, and Scott as well.
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The way I was treated in the Catholic school, because I wasn't Catholic, lead me to start questioning things, to start wondering if there is in fact a God that cares for the people on this earth.
I was very close to choosing Atheism, but it made no sense to me. I believe that some greater force, Deity, God, had to have a hand in creating this world, but all evidence points to this God wiping his hands of the world right after he created it.
If all the evidence points to G-d wiping his hands of the world right after creating it, then how do you explain documented cases of "unexplained" phenomenon like the spontaneous shrinking of terminal tumors like the examples I gave earlier in this thread? How do you explain that within the Deist philosophy?
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Was Jesus real? I'm sure there was a man named Jesus, I'm sure he did claim to be the son of God. Was he? I don't know. Why would a God put a human on this earth? To die for our sins but to keep testing us? What kind of God is this? So we suffer for 60+ years, if we're lucky, and then, if we accept the suffering, kneel before this unseen force, pray, etc. etc. etc. then we finally get the big reward? Where's the logic in that?
If you would like to understand my own way of thinking regarding Jesus, please see this link. It's off topic, but you might find it interesting.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/judais...ml#post1701021
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I respect your right to believe, I respect your faith, but, if you allowed yourself to see our side of things you may just understand why Deism is an acceptable belief.
In my post to Scott, I went out of my way to state that such is an acceptable beliefe at least 3 times. I have no qualms with that.
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You may notice from my other postings in the religious forums that I have many times said, to someone that believes, God bless. That is their belief, I have no problem with that belief and speaking to them in a way that I know will bring them comfort. If a "God bless" will help them, well, that's the least I can do.
I, on the other hand, have been told by more then one member on this site, that I'm going to hell, that I'll burn, that my "God" will be judged by their God, etc. etc. etc.
Not a Jewish belief. Judaism simply doesn't believe that you go to hell if you aren't Jewish. Please see this link for more information: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/judais...ml#post1981488 Specifically, check out the section regarding "conversions" in the answer to the 4th question. You will NEVER hear me tell anyone they are going to hell because they don't believe in G-d the same way that I do. If I said something like that, it is much more likely that I would be the one going to hell than you. I find such behavior abhorrent, both personally and religiously.
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Interesting isn't it? I can accept others but, because I won't conform I'm going to hell and worse and will not be accepted by people with faith.
Like I say, I find it disgusting. And it is NOT my beliefe system. It is, in fact, one of the major differences between Judaism vs Christianity and Islam. And one that I happen to be rather proud of... Judaism accepts EVERYONE to the same heaven that we go to, regardless of religion.
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I wonder how God feels about that. I'm not being snide, but really, if your God exists then how do you think he feels about all his loyal followers treating his "lost children" like dirt on the bottom of their shoes?
I can't speak for G-d, but I think I have made it fairly clear how the Jewish People in general and myself in particular feel about that sort of thing.
Moreover, Jews have been on the receiving end of too many pogroms, inquisitions, blood libels, holocausts, expulsions, forced conversions, and intifadas to accept that sort of behavior.
I fully accept your beliefs for yourself. I am just trying to examine the assumptions that underlay those beliefs. And I still have a lot of questions about them. I still don't think they fit all the facts on the ground.
But if you are satisfied with them, then I'm happy for you. I just know that in the same position, I wouldn't be quite so satisfied... which of course is the reason that you and I have different beliefs.
Elliot
