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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Yes Allheart. That may indeed be that way. However : "Oxham's razor" states that almost always the simplest answer to a question is the correct one. Therefore it seems more logical to assume that there is no "God" at all, as that explains the lack of regrowth of limbs perfectly and convincingly ..... All other assumptions require another unsupported suggestion or questionable additional claim.

"God's ways are inscrutable" is a clincher, not an explanation !

:rolleyes:

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Dearest Cred,

First, psssst a little secret I will share with you... AMHD has more then one of those little faces... they have :p and :D and :) and even :( , would you make my day, and just try a different one. Even if it doesn't apply? It would make me smile. ( okay, squeezing in a little levity, or trying to)

For me Cred, it is far more logical to know there is God then not. Look at all the beautiful humans that surround you, the smiling happy children. I've said this before, have you ever seen a special needs child? And what do they usaully always where on their face? A big beautiful smile. And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.

To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.

Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to. But yet, it still remains to be proof. Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
Accept, that they really are not limited.

If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has.
It's all part of God's loving plan.

Apologies for the many quotes... It's Sunday... But I'm off to the beach soon !

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Originally Posted by Allheart

AMHD has more then one of those little faces.

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Yes, but I prefer :rolleyes: as that shows better the feeling I have for what I reply to.
But watch the last line : all for you!! LOL

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Originally Posted by Allheart

... have you ever seen a special needs child?

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Yes Allheart : almost every day : I am volunteer worker at a center for physical and mental crippled children (I deliberately do not call them "motorized and mental impaired or challenged" because the basic term is crippled).

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Originally Posted by Allheart

And what do they usaully always where on thier face? A big beautiful smile.

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Yes Allheart. That is because we feed, wash, dress, support, and pamper them. And they feel fine. But most of them have no idea what the heck is happening around them. And "God"? Although they have heard that word, it is beyond their capacity of understanding.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.

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With all respect Allheart : cr*p : "God" does not do anything. It are my colleges and I who watch over them, and places - where that is possible - great joy and delight in their heart.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.

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Neither does it to me. I attribute that instead to the billions of cells and cell structures that existed before me and you, and by their development (evolution) allowed us to grow to what we are today.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to.

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What "God"? Where is it? Where is the objective supporting evidence for it's existence and capacities?

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Originally Posted by Allheart

... But yet, it still remains to be proof.

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Yes : SUBJECTIVE evidence, i.e. a claim and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
accept, that they really are not limited.

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Well... The legs-less amputees I see are limited. And that is why society puts them in centers, as they feel threatened and guilty in some strange way by their presence.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has. It's all part of God's loving plan.

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I suggest you put your legs on the railroad track, so you soon can experience God's loving plan for amputees for the rest of your life... Cynical ? Yes ! Logial ? Yes, just as well !

So specially for you Allheart :

:D :mad: :p :cool: :eek:

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Apologies for the many quotes... It's Sunday and I have all the time of the world...

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Originally Posted by Allheart

AMHD has more then one of those little faces.

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Yes, but I prefer :rolleyes: as that shows better the feeling I have for what I reply to.
But watch the last line : all for you!! LOL

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Originally Posted by Allheart

... have you ever seen a special needs child?

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Yes Allheart : almost every day : I am volunteer worker at a center for physical and mental crippled children (I deliberately do not call them "motorized and mental impaired or challenged") because the basic term is crippled.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

And what do they usaully always where on thier face? A big beautiful smile.

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Yes Allheart. That is because we feed, wash, dress, support, and pamper them. And they feel fine. But most of them have no idea what the heck is happening around them. And "God"? Although they have heard that word, it is beyond their capacity of understanding.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.

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With all respect Allheart : cr*p : "God" does not do anything. It are my colleges and I who watch over them, and place - where that is possible - great joy and delight in their heart.

TELL ME : Where was that smile on the orphan and mental crippled children's faces in the centers in Rumania a decade ago ? If you are correct God was there. But there were not enough people there to do the real actual work.
Another strong hint at the non-existence of "God" as far as I am concerned !

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Originally Posted by Allheart

To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.

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Neither does it to me. I attribute that instead to the billions of cells and cell structures that existed before me and you, and by their development (evolution) allowed us to grow to what we are today.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to.

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What "God"? Where is it? Where is the objective supporting evidence for it's existence and capacities?

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Originally Posted by Allheart

... But yet, it still remains to be proof.

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Yes : SUBJECTIVE proof, i.e. a claim and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
accept, that they really are not limited.

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Well... The legs-less amputees I see are limited. And that is why society puts them in centers, as they feel threatened and guilty in some strange way by their presence.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has. It's all part of God's loving plan.

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I suggest you put your legs on the railroad track, so you soon can experience God's loving plan for amputees for the rest of your life.
Cynical ? Yes ! Logial ? Yes, just as well !

So specially once for you, Allheart :

:mad: :p :cool: :eek: :o

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Ahhhhhhhhhh I love all the different faces. Thank you Cred :). My prayers were answered! Gotcha, hee hee, just kiddin. But thanks for them, I chuckled.

Now Cred, take this with the intention that it is given, you see, what a special person that you are... the gifts that you may not know you possess. Not everyone has the capacity, to take care of those beautiful and wonderful children. But you do. Like it or not, that is a very special gift.

No, the children are unaware of God's prescense, but trust me, He is never unaware of theirs and I promise you, He blesses them every minute of every day. Many of the blessings He does give them, is people like you to lovingly take care of them.

And you are right, no, I would not lay on a train track, to extend my love, or to be able to know actually what it is like to be an amputee. Very good point and I know that even though God is right there with them, if they did have a choice, they would want their limbs back. I do feel for them, very much.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Ahhhhhhhhhh I love all the different faces. Thank you Cred :)

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Pleasure ! :D

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Originally Posted by Allheart

... but trust me, He is never unaware of theirs and I promise you, He blesses them every minute of every day. Many of the blessings He does give them, is people like you to lovingly take care of them.

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With all respect : No, I don't trust you on that. I am sure you mean well, but what you stated is - as far as I am concerned - what you BELIEVE. It lacks the Objective Supporting Evidence (OSE).

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Originally Posted by Allheart

.... if they did have a choice, they would want their limbs back.

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My point is : why does "God" not restore limbs?.

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I moved this to here ....

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Here is a picture out of a Romanian Governmental orphanage made around 1995. Does that show that God watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart ?
That is precisely why I am a Secular Humanist : if we leave it to this (to me seemingly) imaginary entity called "God", you can make pictures like these everywhere.
People should place the concern and care for each others as a focus in their life. And keep "God" as pastime on Sundays and/or when they have nothing else useful to do...

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Cred,

That is heartbreaking more then words can say, but that picture says it all. And far too many children to suffer.

And you are more then right, that we need to focus on helping each other and taking care of each other.

It is hugely my belief, when ones like yourself and the many other ones, who do make a difference in the special children's lives, when you do have days, where you think to yourself, why is this happening? How can I go on caring for this children who suffer so much? When the human mind and heart has taken on the tragedy it can ingest, what do you think makes you or anyone else, get right back to it the next day? I believe it is God's love and strength that keeps these good people going.

Look at Mother Theresa. What do you think inspired, or who do you think inspired all the great, unselifsh and loving acts and deeds she performed?

God enters into our hearts, so that we are able to keep going, keep giving even when we think we can give no more.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Cred, That is heartbreaking more then words can say, but that picture says it all. And far too many children to suffer.

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Let's keep to the subject...

Why does "God" not restore amputated limbs?
Specially when "God" is claimed to do so many wonders daily...

Could all these wonders not be just "luck"?
Could it be that "God" just does not exist or that "God" does not care about you, me , or anyone else?
I know that may sound terrible to you, but still it is a fair question to ask !

For sure it are perfect reasons limbs are never restored...

:(

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Cred,

You would rather hang your hat on "luck" then faith? Luck is hard to prove as well, isn't it?

And I honestly don't know why God does not restore the lost limbs. I wish that He would, but His plan for all is in His loving hands and I know, trust and believe in His plan.

This life is only temporary, and those limbs one day will actually be restored, hurts, pains, trauma and tradegedy will one day be all removed and be replaced with great peace.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Cred, You would rather hang your hat on "luck" then faith? Luck is hard to prove as well, isn't it?

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No, not on "luck". But I do hang my hat on my own capacities, on my own responsibilities, on my own tolerance for those who had less "luck" than I had in life, and on my feelings of concern and need of others for care. Only that way we can reach here on earth what theists hope to get after they are dead : peace !

I do not need a deity that has never been objectively proved to exist. As a Secular Humanist I care for - specially - the poorest and the weakest under us mortal humans.
Because it is sure THAT many such people exist, and that they require our support.
And while no deity seems to exist, although it is claimed to have gigantic capacities but has never shown itself in an objective way to humanity, I am very skeptic to it's existence.

If only all these theists were less busy trying to improve their odds on a "good" chance for the hereafter, and more busy by spreading the word in an indirect way (by taking better care of their social responsibilities)... How much better this world would be...

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Originally Posted by Allheart

And I honestly don't know why God does not restore the lost limbs. I wish that He would, but His plan for all is in His loving hands and I know, trust and believe in His plan.

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And you never ask yourself really why amputees NEVER restore limbs, but you believe all these wild claims on "God's" mysterious answering of other people's prayers - all but regrowing amputated limbs? That does not ever plants a little seed of doubt in your mind? Really ?

:)

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

Mature Christian, I do not believe any of us are Mature Christians. I would say Maturing Christians, because as believers we are constantly growing and learning. So is it fair to say that some believers are more mature then others. We are told not to judge one another,, but I see that all the time. Saturday night I was at a catholic service and one lady before service started just came out of confession, sat down in the pew and this other lady sat beside her. They were gossiping about other people the whole service. Talking through the whole thing. Judging others. I could not believe it. I still extended my hand out in piece but am I being judgemental towards them? I am not perfect, no one is. We all fall short. So I guess we need to lift each other up. No matter what our faults may be. Love is to truly be there for one another. Continually growing and learning and maturing, but there is no such thing as a mature Christian in my personal opinion.

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Cred, You have told Allheart to stick to the original question. Well I think you should follow your own advice. What was the original question of the OP, before you HIJACKED THE THREAD? Please get back to the original post. Thank you. Can you answer what makes a mature Christian? What you think a mature Christian is?

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian? Maybe share some examples. I'm considering St. Paul's advice to become mature in your faith, to not need milk like a babe. I mean so many I know are constantly going over the same old themes, Garden of Eden, Moses' life story, Noah and the Ark. Constantly rehashing every little piece of Scripture (should THIS be taken literally??) like their life depended on it. Or those I know that talk behind my back or think they can't play certain songs or use certain bad words around me. I mean, get real. Is it reaching outside your self, truly caring about other people whether they do in return? I will consider any answers you've got.

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Here is a reminder.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

Cred, You have told Allheart to stick to the original question.

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Dear Joe : No, I did not told her that : I told her to keep to the subject we were at that moment discussing , and that for sure is related to the original question : how can anybody ever becomes a "mature" Christian, when there is no supporting reason for being a Christian in the first place, and so many reasons to drop Christianity completely as religion?

If you want posts to keep on their narrow Christian-only base, they should be posted in Religion - Christianity, and not here.

:rolleyes:

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Do you consider your wife a mature Christian Cred??

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

The Greatest blessing in my World, Is my Wife and my Beautiful son.
Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.
Give not over thy soul to sorrow; and afflict not thyself in thy own counsel. Gladness of heart is the life of man and the joyfulness of man is length of days.

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Joe, isn't it funny that I agree with most of that?
Only I do not call it blessing, but good fortune, and that I have 2 daughters, 1 son, and 6 grandchildren.
All that is a little questionable is the suggested-to-exist "soul". Call it "thinking" and I'll buy it !

:)

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Do you consider your wife a mature Christian Cred?????

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The only "mature" item in my life is the cheese I like.
But my wife is for sure a deeply believing and serious Christian, who does not only babble about "the word", but spreads it too, in both word and deed, N0help4u ! Specially in deeds ! And that is why I respect her views above that of many others, who talk about that, but do in reality very little with it.

:)

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Well seeing we are stuck on the computer it does make it rather hard for us to live up to your wife in your eyes cause you see her living it everyday but that doesn't mean many of us do not live in deed by the things we do for others and so forth.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

well seeing we are stuck on the computer it does make it rather hard for us to live up to your wife in your eyes cause you see her living it everyday but that doesn't mean many of us do not live in deed by the things we do for others and so forth.

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You are not in competition with my wife's religious values or validity.
If what you state is true, why do you post so many empty words here, and instead tell people on HOW and WHY you implement the Christian Mission into your and other people's lives?

The proof is not in the babble cake, but in the custard reality of your actions...

Oh... I know, I know : that is not what you wanted to see here...

:rolleyes:

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Like you said I and others are not in competition so I do not have to prove anything.
Not what I wanted to see here..
Your words not mine and

I like how you refer to stuff as empty words when you don't know what else to say.

Tell people on HOW and WHY you implement the Christian Mission into your and other people's lives?
Good question for another post
I might even enjoy replying to it!!

I do believe I did reply to a couple similar questions here before.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I do believe I did reply to a couple similar questions here before.

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Let me say it this way, N0help4u : My wife implements her Christian values in her life in word and deed.
And I implement my Secular Humanistic values in my life also in word and deed.

If all theists would do the same, we would have heaven here on earth.
So why don't we have heaven here? Because most people only TALK about it, and than continue mainly with their own interests. They do not "spread their word".

Think about that, and later to day I will follow up here. The beach is waiting with lot's of sunshine and a nice breeze from sea. Adios!

:)

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I hear you. I am always saying too many people CHRISTIAN OR NON are too stuck in their rut and very complacent. How many times have I said people go to work, go home, run to Wal Mart, run home, cook and then sit in front of the TV and when anything is brought up they say it doesn't affect them so they do not care.